Did Darth Phobos exist before, during or after SWTOR?

[Swedguy]

For quite some time now I've been trying to calculate when the Theelin Sith Lord Darth Phobos existed. What we know based on the Star Wars Wiki is she was born on Korriban and died "Many years before 2000 BBY", which is when her cult disappeared. We also know that in 3522 BBY, a Pau'an Jedi Master turned to the dark side and became Darth Desolous.

 

It was believed Darth Phobos was killed on Korriban, but during the course of several decades she assembled her own Cult who would assassinate Jedi and Sith alike.

 

Judging by the fact that the only previous incarnation of the Sith with enough members for her to form a cult was (as far as I know) Vitiate's Empire, I think Phobos either existed during or after SWTOR.

[Kyrrant]

Almost certainly after SWTOR.

 

It looks like there's no definite proof of it anywhere, but a cult surviving 1,600 years (also known as longer than the lifespan of the Roman Empire) is... unlikely. A cult surviving 160 years would be an impressive display of resilience...

[DarthDymond]

Almost certainly after SWTOR.

 

It looks like there's no definite proof of it anywhere, but a cult surviving 1,600 years (also known as longer than the lifespan of the Roman Empire) is... unlikely. A cult surviving 160 years would be an impressive display of resilience...

To be fair, in the Star Wars Universe we both have a Republic standing for 25,000 years (a span of time that would be the equivalent of a present-day society dating back to the last third of the Upper Paleolithic Era) and at least one other example of a Sith cult lasting for well over a thousand years with Darth Andeddu's 'Malevolence' cult (which was already ancient when Darth Bane fought them around 980 BBY and was still in existence when Darth Wyyrlock defeated them in 137 ABY).

 

But yeah, it looks like the only official sources on Phobos and her cult are so vague we can't be sure when she was around relative to SWTOR.

Edited January 18, 2015 by DarthDymond

[jovianus]

Almost certainly after SWTOR.

 

It looks like there's no definite proof of it anywhere, but a cult surviving 1,600 years (also known as longer than the lifespan of the Roman Empire) is... unlikely. A cult surviving 160 years would be an impressive display of resilience...

 

Hey, you never know

 

 

Revan's cult went from a bunch of loonies hiding in the bushes on Dromund Kaas to a galaxy spanning conspiracy reaching into every level of the Empire and the Republic in like, six months.

 

[AshlaBoga]

Hey, you never know

 

 

Revan's cult went from a bunch of loonies hiding in the bushes on Dromund Kaas to a galaxy spanning conspiracy reaching into every level of the Empire and the Republic in like, six months.

 

Actually it seems like it took 3-4 years for that to happen. But even then, man did they recruit fast:eek:

[DarthDymond]

Actually it seems like it took 3-4 years for that to happen. But even then, man did they recruit fast:eek:

For what it's worth, having the person you're worshiping rise from the dead does seem to be an effective recruiting tool in general, and Revan pulled that particular trick off for his second and third times during that period.

 

 

And in truly epic case of 'third time's a charm' the third time he pretty much did it for real.

 

Edited January 19, 2015 by DarthDymond

[Darth_Wicked]

Actually it seems like it took 3-4 years for that to happen. But even then, man did they recruit fast:eek:

 

Not quite.

In the codex entry for Darkspanner, it is stated that Revan appeared to her in a vision, beckoning her to abandon Dromund Kaas.

 

Seeing that in the Legacy of the Rakata flashpoint, he says he had no use for them initially, it is inferred he appeared to her AFTER the battle in the Foundry, NOT before.

Hence, depending on the timeline, what jovianus said earlier is either 100% correct or pretty close to that. I think that makes little sense but that's just me really, especially if you compare said organization with others such as...

The Star Cabal and GenoHaradan, millennia-spanning organizations, with deep roots in either Republic or Imperial space. The former was apparently so powerful that, behind the shadows, helped the Jedi strike at the Emperor aboard his space station.

 

For what little it did.

 

Edited January 19, 2015 by Darth_Wicked

[DarthDymond]

Not quite.

In the codex entry for Darkspanner, it is stated that Revan appeared to her in a vision, beckoning her to abandon Dromund Kaas.

 

Seeing that in the Legacy of the Rakata flashpoint, he says he had no use for them initially, it is inferred he appeared to her AFTER the battle in the Foundry, NOT before.

Hence, depending on the timeline, what jovianus said earlier is either 100% correct or pretty close to that.

 

The cult could have started growing in size and influence even before Revan 'took the reins' after the Foundry.

 

It's probably safe to say that the Republic 'branch' of the cult didn't get organized (or at least folded into the Cult proper) until after his latest 'resurrection' (which still could mean up to two years before Forged Alliances) but the original DK cult could have already been on the rise before then.

 

 

EDIT: While I agree that even the 3 or 4-year time-frame strains suspension of disbelief a bit, it's probably worth pointing out that it only took Revan 4 or 5 years to go from starting the Revanchist movement from scratch to establishing his own Sith Empire back during the leadup to the Jedi Civil War.

 

Not sure if that helps things or just points to unreasonable time-frames being even more rampant around Revan. (I don't remember any retcons that said the Emperor put his mind-whammy on anyone other than Revan and Malak, and while I'm sure the True Sith Empire had agents and agitators helping things along behind the scene, that's still quite the undertaking.)

Edited January 19, 2015 by DarthDymond

[BenKatarn]

The former was apparently so powerful that, behind the shadows, helped the Jedi strike at the Emperor aboard his space station.

 

For what little it did.

 

How so?

[Darth_Wicked]

The cult could have started growing in size and influence even before Revan 'took the reins' after the Foundry.

 

It's probably safe to say that the Republic 'branch' of the cult didn't get organized (or at least folded into the Cult proper) until after his latest 'resurrection' (which still could mean up to two years before Forged Alliances) but the original DK cult could have already been on the rise before then.

 

See the codex entry below, at the end of the post.

 

EDIT: While I agree that even the 3 or 4-year time-frame strains suspension of disbelief a bit, it's probably worth pointing out that it only took Revan 4 or 5 years to go from starting the Revanchist movement from scratch to establishing his own Sith Empire back during the leadup to the Jedi Civil War.

 

He wasn't doing it from the shadows though. The Revanchists weren't a secret cult; they did what they had to do -- namely fighting the Mandalorians -- in the open. Plus, Revan came into possession of the Star Forge.

 

Big difference.

 

Not sure if that helps things or just points to unreasonable time-frames being even more rampant around Revan. (I don't remember any retcons that said the Emperor put his mind-whammy on anyone other than Revan and Malak, and while I'm sure the True Sith Empire had agents and agitators helping things along behind the scene, that's still quite the undertaking.)

 

Revan aside and pulling examples from the game itself...

 

The GenoHaradan and the Star Cabal command -- or commanded -- quite an influence, throughout the galaxy. However, it was something they developed across the centuries. The latter, as seen in the game, is something most people are unaware of and the former, as Saresh puts it, is "a closely guarded State secret".

 

The Revanites, on the other hand, go from a small subversive cult, with a few ties to Republic-space, to this secret cult capable of putting both Empire and Republic against each other, above Rishi, without most people knowing the wiser, in a matter of months -- not decades, let alone centuries.

 

Also, the codex entry I mentioned earlier:

Before becoming the backbone of Revan’s campaign to destroy the Emperor at any cost, the Order of Revan was a small, subversive cult started by Sith Lord Tari Darkspanner.

 

(...)

 

Darkspanner learned the truth of Revan’s fate when the man himself appeared to her in a vision beckoning her to leave Dromund Kaas and seek him out. Impressed with all she’d accomplished as the self-appointed “Master” of the order, Revan offered Darkspanner the opportunity to expand the order’s roster and purpose.

 

Revan claims in the Legacy of the Rakata flashpoint he "wanted nothing to do with them." As such, he appeared to her presumably AFTER the events of the Foundry, when he was split in two already.

Edited January 19, 2015 by Darth_Wicked

[Darth_Wicked]

How so?

 

It is inferred.

[AlrikFassbauer]

Just for your info : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phobos_%28moon%29 That's where Darth Phobos got her name from.

[Darth_Wicked]

Just for your info : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phobos_%28moon%29 That's where Darth Phobos got her name from.

 

The author most likely, not so much the character iself.

[AshlaBoga]

While I agree that even the 3 or 4-year time-frame strains suspension of disbelief a bit, it's probably worth pointing out that it only took Revan 4 or 5 years to go from starting the Revanchist movement from scratch to establishing his own Sith Empire back during the leadup to the Jedi Civil War.

 

Not sure if that helps things or just points to unreasonable time-frames being even more rampant around Revan. (I don't remember any retcons that said the Emperor put his mind-whammy on anyone other than Revan and Malak, and while I'm sure the True Sith Empire had agents and agitators helping things along behind the scene, that's still quite the undertaking.)

 

Revan's #1 power isn't his strength in the Force (although given that he can take on Marr and Satele at the same time he's clearly very strong with the Force), but his Charisma. The guy recruited what, Republic Soldiers and Jedi by the thousands to betray their own organizations? Presumably these were some very loyal people, and with the soldiers he probably couldn't use Malachor V to turn them to the Dark Side. That was pure psychology on his part.

 

So I suspect that being the Revanchrist is the only reason he could recruit so many, so fast.

[BrianDavion]

So I suspect that being the Revanchrist is the only reason he could recruit so many, so fast.

 

no need to add that unnesscary r in there. the term Revanchist isn't exactly some word that was made up to draw allusions to christ. it's a very real word that sums up Revan pretty well. Revanchism is a term first coined in the 1870s following french defeats at the hands of the germans. it comes from the French word Revanche (Revenge) and details a drive to reclaim territorial loses at the hands of enemy nations in war. thus sums up the reason for Revan's fall. his darth name translates in essence to "Darth Revenge"

[jovianus]

Revan's #1 power isn't his strength in the Force (although given that he can take on Marr and Satele at the same time he's clearly very strong with the Force), but his Charisma. The guy recruited what, Republic Soldiers and Jedi by the thousands to betray their own organizations? Presumably these were some very loyal people, and with the soldiers he probably couldn't use Malachor V to turn them to the Dark Side. That was pure psychology on his part.

 

So I suspect that being the Revanchrist is the only reason he could recruit so many, so fast.

 

The situations are rather different though. Revan didn't recruit people to betray their organizations, he recruited them to defend the Republic against the Mandalorians. The Jedi Council at the time was apparently drinking anti-freeze laced kool-aid because for some bizarre reason with the Republic burning down around them they insisted on sitting on their thumbs and meditating about what to do, it's not hard to see why a lot of Jedi and the Republic military would rally behind him, and then be swayed even when he started giving questionable orders.

 

In the game time frame though, Revan isn't relevant to the vast majority of...anyone. He's just a historical figure from 300 years ago, and the Cult of Revan is just a fringe group of looney Sith spinning conspiracy stories in the backwoods of Dromund Kaas. Nobody has any particular reason to rally behind him, or even know who he is, or believe that he's anyone but some crazed force user trying to invoke a long dead Jedi's name.

 

The whole thing just smacks of heavy handed retconning by Bioware because they couldn't really spin a complete expansion around just Revan.

[Ghisallo]

Actually it seems like it took 3-4 years for that to happen. But even then, man did they recruit fast:eek:

 

Without sci-fi levels of communications and a Galaxy spanning war to fuel it Aum Shinrykio went from a yoga class to a cult with 40,000 members world wide that managed to make its own nerve gas and attack the Tokyo subway in less than a decade. (No exaggeration... It started as a yoga class).

[Ghisallo]

The situations are rather different though. Revan didn't recruit people to betray their organizations, he recruited them to defend the Republic against the Mandalorians. The Jedi Council at the time was apparently drinking anti-freeze laced kool-aid because for some bizarre reason with the Republic burning down around them they insisted on sitting on their thumbs and meditating about what to do, it's not hard to see why a lot of Jedi and the Republic military would rally behind him, and then be swayed even when he started giving questionable orders.

 

In the game time frame though, Revan isn't relevant to the vast majority of...anyone. He's just a historical figure from 300 years ago, and the Cult of Revan is just a fringe group of looney Sith spinning conspiracy stories in the backwoods of Dromund Kaas. Nobody has any particular reason to rally behind him, or even know who he is, or believe that he's anyone but some crazed force user trying to invoke a long dead Jedi's name.

 

The whole thing just smacks of heavy handed retconning by Bioware because they couldn't really spin a complete expansion around just Revan.

 

Well if you read the codex entry of the cult it is not how you describe it empire side. When rescued he would have spent months being debriefed on Tython before going off to the foundry and someone of his charisma, reputation and power would have been able to convince more than a couple Jedi to join him since the corruption in the Civilian Gov't of the Republic is more than evident through PUB side questing. Jedi are crazy respected by Republic Military rank and file so if you can get some Jedi you sure as hell can get them to attract the Pub side soldiers that are tired of watching their friends die in a 2nd war after they got their butts handed to em in the last one.