The REAL Most Powerful Force Users - Rebooted

[Selenial]

Ignoring OCW, I beg to differ. If we are using OCW, then I expect Rivi-Anu to be above Meetra Surik easily.

 

I find your lack of knowledge disturbing

[MarcheseAMM]

I was forced to debate literally Yoda vs Mace for about 16 months contentiously, I'm pretty sure my knowledge on Yoda's hype and feats surpass yours, mother. :up: Without using OCW material, his impressiveness drops, tbh.

[Aurbere]

Personally, I think Yoda's Clone Wars feats are well within his power. Lesser Force users have accomplished similar feats.

[Beniboybling]

Concerning Sidious vs Windu, your assessment is incorrect Ant, Sidious was not afraid, Windu drew on Anakin's fear:

"You lost for the same reason the Sith always lose: defeated by your own fear."

 

Palpatine lifted his head. His eyes smoked with hate. "Fool," he said. He lifted his arms, his robes of office spreading wide into raptor's wings, his hands hooking into talons.

 

"Fool!" His voice was a shout of thunder. "Do you think the fear you feel is mine?"

Cross reference that with the following and what he meant becomes clear:

In the Force, Mace could feel the monster inside Anakin Skywalker, a real monster, too real, one that was eating him alive from the inside out.

 

Fear.

 

This was the wound Anakin had taken. This was the hurt that had him shaking and stammering and too weak to stand. Some black fear had hatched like fever wasps inside the young Knight's brain, and it was killing him.

Furthemore, immediately after Sidious makes that remark he unleashes Force lightning on him, lightining that Windu is barely capable of deflecting, and while doing that the novel also says the following:

And Palpatine was not afraid. Mace could feel it: he wasn't worried at all.

Bearing in mind that it was this supposed fear that caused Sidious to lose, he was apparently afraid he would fall of the ledge and that is what allowed Windu to win. There is one conclusion that can be drawn from this, Sidious threw the duel. He allowed Windu to win by projecting Anakin's fear, reinforced by the fact that as soon as Sidious is defeated, Anakin enters the room to behold a cowering Palpatine pinned against the wall by Windu's lightsaber.

 

 

Also bear in mind that Sidious could have defeated Windu with the Force at any time, and Vaapad i.e. channeling Sidious power, was Windu's only saving face. Conclusion, Sidious speed blitzed three Jedi Council members and would have blitzed Windu as well if not for Vaapad, though even with Vaapad could have dominated him with the Force. Given that its simply not logical to claim that the Sith Emperor's feat is more impressive, and that Sidious could not have dominated them as he did. The fact that he dominated these Jedi Masters is solid proof that he can.

 

Circumstantial evidence is circumstantial, and you can't compare it on the superficial level you attempted to do. Also for the record, Sith Emperor did not blitz them in 2 seconds, and actually had to expend tons of power to do it.

[Beniboybling]

Obviously I'm sure you heard countless VItiate arguments, so I'm just going to go to the new one:

Does this forum seriously recognize Yoda extremely more powerful then Revan-tier characters?

Extremely? No. Considerably? Yes. Revan could hold his own against Yoda in a lightsaber duel for a time, but in terms of Force abilities the gap between them is larger than that between Revan and the Sith Emperor, do the math.

 

Now for my question:

 

Does KMC seriously recognise the Sith Emperor to be vastly more powerful than Sidious-tier characters?

[Rhyltran]

Awh, this was rather cute. But no, invalid comparison. Countless Force users are superior combatants using the Force, yet still take lightsaber combat seriously. Nomi Sunrider, Revan, and Cade Skywalker are all among the main examples I can think of. By the way, just because Sidious is a superior Force combatant then lightsaber duelist (whichI have agreed with for approx. 2 years now), doesn't mean he doesn't take lightsaber duels seriously. That's a really flawed argument you got there. Obviously since most of your actual debates are with out SWTOR people who don't really know how to debate (no offense), I can see why you are having such difficulties trying to get your points across. For future reference in your debates, evidence is canonical statements, quotes, scans, etc. Evidence isn't making education assumptions on actual evidence to try to support your argument, which is what you are doing. Recap:

 

a.) evidence: using concrete canonical statements, quotes, scans, or passages to prove something.

b.) educated assumption: looking at information from canonical statements to form an argument not from it.

c.) stupidity: looking at educated assumptions and then forming an argument out of it, claiming it evidence.

 

- - -

 

By the way (lol), I never said Sidious was taking Mace "extremely seriously," lol. Your entire argument is built on misconceptions which is rather lame. While, Sidious throwing the fight has been debated by fans for centuries without any concrete conclusions, Mace was also amped extremely by Vaapad, and with such managed to push Sidious back, and then using Shatterpoint he managed to find a break in Sidious' defense in claim victory. Mace managed to draw on this fear in the battle, making him additionally more powerful. The text notes however Sidious was indeed in fear, but likewise if that fear was heartfelt or masked is also debatable. My half trolling, half serious argument was that your argument that the killing of three of the four members is more impressive then the domination of the five Jedi from Vitiate sucks because Mace managed to push back Sidious during times where Anakin was not even present in the room, it was pointless to do something like that and possibly get yourself killed:

 

EDIT: If you do respond, I probably won't be able to get back to you this week. I have midterms from today to Friday.

 

What are you still trying to argue? In this post you essentially just inadvertently wrote yourself out of this debate. I'm not even sure if you realize it yet but I'll point out why this is the case.

 

In your post you have revealed..

 

1) You don't think Sidious was taking Windu seriously (My main point.)

2) Sidious fights better without a lightsaber and using the force (My argument that he doesn't need a lightsaber based off his own quote)

3) That Sidious was not fighting Windu in the method that he's the strongest in.

 

This is the very definition of losing an argument. You conceded to all my points.

 

In the beginning I claimed that Sidious wasn't taking Windu seriously and that he wasn't fighting at his fullest as opposed to Vitiate who was. You claimed Vitiate's feat is far more impressive because he defeated his opponents quicker.

 

I then pointed out that Vitiate was fighting them using his strongest abilities and on top of that in the manner that he's best at. He took them seriously. I also pointed out the Hero of Tython was not at his best yet (proven by the fact that he later wins one on one.) You also admit to the fact that Windu was seriously amped up even after the fact that before said "power boost" he was already considered one of the best Jedi the order has EVER seen. Even being amped by sidious' own darkness and with the help of some of the most powerful Jedi in that time period and Windu himself being one of the top Jedi in the entire history of the order Sidious was able to kill most of them in seconds using a form that he's not the best at and even Windu's "victory" itself is debatable.

 

You agreed to my point.

[Beniboybling]

Personally, I think Yoda's Clone Wars feats are well within his power. Lesser Force users have accomplished similar feats.

Its important that we account for the fact that none of those feats demonstrate his limits, so we can't assume anyone capable of those feats is therefore close to Yoda in power, we have to look at the bigger picture.

 

Yoda's most impressive feat is deflecting Sidious lightning back at him, Revan couldn't even begin to accomplish that.

[Aurbere]

Its important that we account for the fact that none of those feats demonstrate his limits, so we can't assume anyone capable of those feats is therefore close to Yoda in power, we have to look at the bigger picture.

 

Yoda's most impressive feat is deflecting Sidious lightning back at him, Revan couldn't even begin to accomplish that.

 

Oh, certainly that's Yoda's most impressive feat. Just saying that I think the OCW feats aren't exactly impossible for him.

 

But I'll operate under the assumption that we are excluding them for my list of Yoda feats.

[MarcheseAMM]

1) You don't think Sidious was taking Windu seriously (My main point.)

2) Sidious fights better without a lightsaber and using the force (My argument that he doesn't need a lightsaber based off his own quote)

3) That Sidious was not fighting Windu in the method that he's the strongest in.

Oh my, I never denied any of these points in the first place, hence why I was so confused you went into a debate with me? I thought you were referring to other things because my views on Sidious vs Mace should be universally known by now, at least, so I thought. I had the views that you repeated above since 2007ish. Not sure your point. *confused*

Edited January 18, 2015 by MarcheseAMM

[MarcheseAMM]

Its important that we account for the fact that none of those feats demonstrate his limits, so we can't assume anyone capable of those feats is therefore close to Yoda in power, we have to look at the bigger picture.

 

Yoda's most impressive feat is deflecting Sidious lightning back at him, Revan couldn't even begin to accomplish that.

 

Darth Nyriss' lightning (amped) is more powerful then Sidious' lightning, lol.

[Rhyltran]

Oh my, I never denied any of these points in the first place, hence why I was so confused you went into a debate with me? I thought you were referring to other things because my views on Sidious vs Mace should be universally known by now, at least, so I thought. I had the views that you repeated above since 2007ish. Not sure your point. *confused*

 

You clearly didn't considering that you claimed Vitiate's defeat (based on time and the people he went up against) being a greater feat than Sidious (who could have won quicker if he was going all out from the get-go which he wasn't.)

 

You then tried to deny that he wasn't holding back and that he was taking Windu seriously. This is confirmed by you arguing against my Lightsaber quote which I used in direct opposition. You can't just call me a retard and pretend that you agree all along just because you were outclassed. Also you were the one who called me out for being aggressive claiming I struck a nerve. I relaxed after being asked to do so. Why are you resorting to name calling? Are you falling victim to your own accusation you made earlier against me?

 

I saw what you said before the edit.

[Selenial]

Darth Nyriss' lightning (amped) is more powerful then Sidious' lightning, lol.

 

Im honestly not sure how you made it into secondary education.

[Rhyltran]

Darth Nyriss' lightning (amped) is more powerful then Sidious' lightning, lol.

 

I hope this post was made in jest.

[MarcheseAMM]

Im honestly not sure how you made it into secondary education.

I know you love it.

[Selenial]

I know you love it.

 

Im actually going to dedicate my KMC profile to You and Legends hilarious wankery, with maybe some guest appearances from Bantha.

[MarcheseAMM]

You clearly didn't considering that you claimed Vitiate's defeat (based on time and the people he went up against) being a greater feat than Sidious (who could have won quicker if he was going all out from the get-go which he wasn't.)

Lol what? Get Sasukedc over here now. Me and him spent our entire time on SWF trying to explain to the members the circumstances behind Sidious' defeat by Mace. I never made the time argument either, lol. Your entire argument is built on misconceptions of my argument, which is annoying since I had to spend my own time trying to figure out what the hell you are even saying. My point was that, and you expressed it here, that it is not credible to say Sidious could have beat Mace just as quickly as the other members (like you and Selenial said), because no canonical sources directly state that. Your "evidence" is really just assumptions, hence why you are a rather poor debater.

[Aurbere]

OK, so here's a list of Yoda's feats and abilities that he has. I won't have all of them listed, but that's a lot of content to go through. Besides, the most powerful displays are the most important right?

 

Anyway, here we go!

 

To start off, Yoda's Force Valor is undoubtedly among the finest applications. Yoda is a wretched old thing that can barely walk. He even has to use a hovercraft from time to time. And yet, once he fuels himself with the Force his speed and strength easily eclipses the majority of individuals in the mythos. Indeed, Yoda's speed and strength was enough not to just disarm Sidious, but practically bowl him over too.

 

Another example of great speed and strength was shown in his duel with Dooku on Vjun. Despite Dooku taking advantage of the powerful Dark energies on the planet, Yoda was able to outpace and outmuscle Dooku, forcing him to flee.

 

As far as endurance feats go, his aren't as impressive as, say, Plagueis or Vader, but he does have some decent feats in that regard. For example, though he was knocked unconscious when caught off guard by Sidious' Force lightning, the attack did not seem to affect him too much during their contest. He can also withstand lightsaber strikes, as he did against Count Dooku on Vjun.

 

Yoda's tutaminis mastery was strong enough to absorb, reflect, and dissipate Count Dooku and Darth Sidious' Force lightning. To the latter, the two engaged in a Force struggle twice in their final duel. The first time, Yoda deflected his lightning, he did so with relative ease, even overwhelming Sidious in their lock. The second time ended in a stalemate, wherein Yoda was forced to use the rest of his energies to repel the attack. What this implies to me is that Yoda and Sidious' strength in the Force was not too far off, and it was only Yoda's stamina (see my Yoda thread for theories on that) that forced him to flee (in addition to other circumstances, but the stamina issue prevented him from fighting any longer). Considering Darth Sidious' status as the most powerful Sith Lord ever, Yoda contending with his power in such a way is no small feat, and implies a very small gap in power.

 

His sense abilities are also quite profound. He was able to easily enter the minds of other Jedi to read their thoughts and feelings, and even extend his reach across the galaxy to enter the minds of other Jedi and see what they see. He could also experience visions in the Force from time to time.

 

His skills in mental influence were equally impressive. He was able to employ mind tricks with ease to influence and practically even control others, and he could even wipe the memories of others. He was also skilled in the art of Battle Meditation, employing it during the Battle of Kashyyyk.

 

Yoda was also able to conceal his presence in the Force, doing so on Vjun. However, his application was not perfect, though that could be due to the Dark Side energies on Vjun. He could also use Alter Environment, using it to create a pocket of air that was able to hold back the vacuum of space.

 

Yoda’s telekinetic abilities were quite profound. He was easily able to unleash Force Waves that could hurl dozens of enemies at a time on a moment’s notice. He could also easily move objects and starfighters weighing several tons. He was also able to Force Push Darth Sidious as well. The thing to note about this is that Sidious is stated to always have his Force defenses raised, so Yoda would have had to breach Sidious’ raised Force defenses in order to telekinetically assault him.

 

One of his more interesting telekinetic feats was displayed in Dark Rendezvous. In this particular instance, Yoda manipulated many small objects that had been thrown into the air, including liquids, and then set them back in their proper place. No muss, no fuss. It’s a pretty neat feat, in my opinion.

 

Well, that's a good solid chunk. Feel free to add more, I'll be sure to quote those posts and edit them in.

 

Also, I'm sure similar lists for Vitiate and Caedus are more than welcome.

[MarcheseAMM]

Im actually going to dedicate my KMC profile to You and Legends hilarious wankery, with maybe some guest appearances from Bantha.

Yas bae yas. Experience the denial of Sidious turning a wyrm and some featless Sith Sorcerors into ash is more impressive then turning Meetra and Scourge into ash, and then also turning Nyriss into ash. :up: Logic.

[Beniboybling]

Oh, certainly that's Yoda's most impressive feat. Just saying that I think the OCW feats aren't exactly impossible for him.

 

But I'll operate under the assumption that we are excluding them for my list of Yoda feats.

As in the 2003 series? Where he levitates entire armies with the Force?

[Aurbere]

As in the 2003 series? Where he levitates entire armies with the Force?

 

Well, yeah. I mean, I don't see him doing stuff to that extent, but individuals less powerful than him have accomplished feats similar to the other ones he did.

[MarcheseAMM]

OK, so here's a list of Yoda's feats and abilities that he has. I won't have all of them listed, but that's a lot of content to go through. Besides, the most powerful displays are the most important right?

 

Anyway, here we go!

 

To start off, Yoda's Force Valor is undoubtedly among the finest applications. Yoda is a wretched old thing that can barely walk. He even has to use a hovercraft from time to time. And yet, once he fuels himself with the Force his speed and strength easily eclipses the majority of individuals in the mythos. Indeed, Yoda's speed and strength was enough not to just disarm Sidious, but practically bowl him over too.

 

Another example of great speed and strength was shown in his duel with Dooku on Vjun. Despite Dooku taking advantage of the powerful Dark energies on the planet, Yoda was able to outpace and outmuscle Dooku, forcing him to flee.

 

As far as endurance feats go, his aren't as impressive as, say, Plagueis or Vader, but he does have some decent feats in that regard. For example, though he was knocked unconscious when caught off guard by Sidious' Force lightning, the attack did not seem to affect him too much during their contest. He can also withstand lightsaber strikes, as he did against Count Dooku on Vjun.

 

Yoda's tutaminis mastery was strong enough to absorb, reflect, and dissipate Count Dooku and Darth Sidious' Force lightning. To the latter, the two engaged in a Force struggle twice in their final duel. The first time, Yoda deflected his lightning, he did so with relative ease, even overwhelming Sidious in their lock. The second time ended in a stalemate, wherein Yoda was forced to use the rest of his energies to repel the attack. What this implies to me is that Yoda and Sidious' strength in the Force was not too far off, and it was only Yoda's stamina (see my Yoda thread for theories on that) that forced him to flee (in addition to other circumstances, but the stamina issue prevented him from fighting any longer). Considering Darth Sidious' status as the most powerful Sith Lord ever, Yoda contending with his power in such a way is no small feat, and implies a very small gap in power.

 

His sense abilities are also quite profound. He was able to easily enter the minds of other Jedi to read their thoughts and feelings, and even extend his reach across the galaxy to enter the minds of other Jedi and see what they see. He could also experience visions in the Force from time to time.

 

His skills in mental influence were equally impressive. He was able to employ mind tricks with ease to influence and practically even control others, and he could even wipe the memories of others. He was also skilled in the art of Battle Meditation, employing it during the Battle of Kashyyyk.

 

Yoda was also able to conceal his presence in the Force, doing so on Vjun. However, his application was not perfect, though that could be due to the Dark Side energies on Vjun. He could also use Alter Environment, using it to create a pocket of air that was able to hold back the vacuum of space.

 

Yoda’s telekinetic abilities were quite profound. He was easily able to unleash Force Waves that could hurl dozens of enemies at a time on a moment’s notice. He could also easily move objects and starfighters weighing several tons. He was also able to Force Push Darth Sidious as well. The thing to note about this is that Sidious is stated to always have his Force defenses raised, so Yoda would have had to breach Sidious’ raised Force defenses in order to telekinetically assault him.

 

One of his more interesting telekinetic feats was displayed in Dark Rendezvous. In this particular instance, Yoda manipulated many small objects that had been thrown into the air, including liquids, and then set them back in their proper place. No muss, no fuss. It’s a pretty neat feat, in my opinion.

 

Well, that's a good solid chunk. Feel free to add more, I'll be sure to quote those posts and edit them in.

 

Also, I'm sure similar lists for Vitiate and Caedus are more than welcome.

Ohh nice, I like this. I have little time today, but I guess responding to this on Friday would be too late, wouldn't it?

[Aurbere]

Ohh nice, I like this. I have little time today, but I guess responding to this on Friday would be too late, wouldn't it?

 

Well, what exactly do you have to say? Good things, yes?

Edited January 18, 2015 by Aurbere

[Selenial]

Yas bae yas. Experience the denial of Sidious turning a wyrm and some featless Sith Sorcerors into ash is more impressive then turning Meetra and Scourge into ash, and then also turning Nyriss into ash. :up: Logic.

 

Except we don't know if she was going to turn Meetra and Scourge to ash. Have you never heard of Prose child?

 

Even then killing herself isn't remotely impressive since she obviously didn't have enough energy to defend herself, dying exactly like Xedrix.

 

Oh, and she was in a force rage on a Nexus.

 

She sucks m8.

[Beniboybling]

Darth Nyriss' lightning (amped) is more powerful then Sidious' lightning, lol.

Please don't troll, its against the rules.

[Selenial]

Do Anakin and Obi wan have impressive TK feats? Yoda was confirmed superior to them both put together, so that's something.