Ghisallo Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 (edited) Not really sure what you guys are getting at but we do have a system, Control, Sense and Alter. For the record this system is still in effect I thought that was clear on by anaylsis, although I didn't delve into specifics I only did so because I thought my thought processes were obvious. To clarify on my thinking: Control: A minor edge for Plagueis Sense: A major edge for Caedus Alter: A major edge for Plagueis In this respect I believe Plagueis superior. We can introduce a numbers system if you like but I'm not sure such a level of specificity is necessary, though more importantly I believe simple numbers may fail to adequately account for the scope of the factors involved. Altogether I advocate being thorough and impartial, that is the best way to go about it. P.S. I don't believe midichlorians to be much of a mystery at all, the Darth Plagueis novel explored the mechanics in pain-staking detail and the Book of Sith expanded on them even more, our knowledge on the subject is pretty deep. P.P.S. I think your mistaken to believe that anyone is biased against Caedus here, at least not to my observations. My point is a step by step quantification.... We end each stage with a point blank rank 1, 2, 3, 4 process because damn well if I saw someone say Plagueis Alter rank 1 I would have called shennangigans.... I was absolutely prepared that Control was going to be a major edge to Plag since last I saw that was where Midichlorian manipulation was supposed to be. Alter? Hell no. And I would have explained why...in my usual detail. Stuff started getting real damn vague near the end tbh. I couldn't even tell we had moved from Alter to control. Half of it probably had to do with a troll who went on a "I can spread your personal info over the internet" self pleasuring spree...but still.. And one person was biased against him...I practically quoted them verbatim in terms of how they tried to dismiss Caedus' deflecting of the bombardment as something that could have been coincidental. If need be I will go through over 100 pages and pull it out. PS it was not u who showed bias against one and for another. Edited January 23, 2015 by Ghisallo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cs_zoltan Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 Soooo what's going on? Is Plagueis #4 finally? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 Soooo what's going on? Is Plagueis #4 finally? More problems with the system, apparently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cs_zoltan Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 More problems with the system, apparently. I don't see the problem just some people who can't deal with Cadeus not making #4. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 I don't see the problem just some people who can't deal with Cadeus not making #4. That's what it seems like. The system works. We have a strong definition of which area requires more power, what abilities require more power, and a strong method of determining from that who is strongest. Based on the evidence at hand, Plagueis is the obvious victor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarSquirrel Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 (edited) Wait so Plagueis is 4th? Really? Doesn't he have like, one book on him and his most impressive feat was manipulating midichlorians? While I won't say that isn't impressive, it is limited in its usefulness outside the "potential" argument which Aurbere suggests is not being factored. I have the Book of Sith right here, and reading through it there isn't anything in his section that leads me to see him as topping Caedus in force power. I'm really not seeing this I will repost this to add in Caedus's position. It isn't that I have a problem with Plagueis necessarily being higher, if he deserved it. But he doesn't, so I do. Edit: I do have a question. This is purely Force-power or is it a list of the top Sith/Jedi in general? Edited January 23, 2015 by StarSquirrel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 I will repost this to add in Caedus's position. Take out the esoteric, the unusable and the feats accomplished by lesser force users, and you get the things actually related to this thread, which have all already been posted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 (edited) If you really do have Book of Sith on hand, you should see how it is impressive, and how impressive the feats he accomplished are. My thread should help, since you posted one for Caedus. Edited January 23, 2015 by Aurbere Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cs_zoltan Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 (edited) http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=7979799&postcount=1379 And it's jsut the tip of the iceberg. If you take the effort to re-read the last 80 pages you'll see we talked about other pretty impressive feats of Plagueis. Edited January 23, 2015 by cs_zoltan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted January 23, 2015 Author Share Posted January 23, 2015 (edited) My point is a step by step quantification.... We end each stage with a point blank rank 1, 2, 3, 4 process because damn well if I saw someone say Plagueis Alter rank 1 I would have called shennangigans.... I was absolutely prepared that Control was going to be a major edge to Plag since last I saw that was where Midichlorian manipulation was supposed to be. Alter? Hell no. And I would have explained why...in my usual detail. Stuff started getting real damn vague near the end tbh. I couldn't even tell we had moved from Alter to control. Half of it probably had to do with a troll who went on a "I can spread your personal info over the internet" self pleasuring spree...but still.. And one person was biased against him...I practically quoted them verbatim in terms of how they tried to dismiss Caedus' deflecting of the bombardment as something that could have been coincidental. If need be I will go through over 100 pages and pull it out. PS it was not u who showed bias against one and for another.I see, well I think the course of the debate demonstrates that its difficult for us to stick to a rigid structure in regards to dealing with each sphere one after the other and delivering verdicts as we go along. I think it helps focus the discussion but in the end we are going to find ourselves backtracking, retreading old ground etc. So in that respect I'd merely encourage people to channel their thoughts through the structure of Control, Sense and Alter and when all has been said and done we make conclusions, that was the mindset I had going into my analysis. P.S. Plagueis, Alter Rank 1. Edited January 23, 2015 by Beniboybling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted January 23, 2015 Author Share Posted January 23, 2015 Wait so Plagueis is 4th? Really? Doesn't he have like, one book on him and his most impressive feat was manipulating midichlorians? While I won't say that isn't impressive, it is limited in its usefulness outside the "potential" argument which Aurbere suggests is not being factored. I have the Book of Sith right here, and reading through it there isn't anything in his section that leads me to see him as topping Caedus in force power. I'm really not seeing this I will repost this to add in Caedus's position. It isn't that I have a problem with Plagueis necessarily being higher, if he deserved it. But he doesn't, so I do. Edit: I do have a question. This is purely Force-power or is it a list of the top Sith/Jedi in general?Here is my most detailed analysis on the subject: http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=7979799&postcount=1379 And here is my rebuttal to Lady's points: http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=7980843&postcount=1400 Furthermore we've deemed Plagueis a valid candidate for the list i.e. that we have enough information on him to draw conclusions, in this respect appealing to an absence of evidence is not fair or accurate in my opinion. Finally questioning Plagueis' power is all well and good, but I'd rather it backed up with applied argument. P.S. This thread is ranking the Force power/abilities (only) of all Force users. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cs_zoltan Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 (edited) P.S. Plagueis, Alter Rank 1. http://media.giphy.com/media/U1XhGr8CWqvVC/giphy.gif Edited January 23, 2015 by cs_zoltan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted January 23, 2015 Author Share Posted January 23, 2015 http://media.giphy.com/media/U1XhGr8CWqvVC/giphy.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cs_zoltan Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 You scared me for a sec, thought you gona post you love me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted January 23, 2015 Author Share Posted January 23, 2015 You scared me for a sec, thought you gona post you love me Ha almost, not quite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 (edited) I'd rather keep it to three, expanding it to 4 I feel has been proven to be biting off more than we can chew. Simply put if they are not a candidate for #5 they will not be chosen, I don't think we can argue Windu for #5. And if Windu enters the discussion, then where is Vader, Exar Kun, Galen Marek etc.? Its too soon for Windu. I would have to agree here. It's too soon for Mace to enter into the discussion. I feel that there are several individuals more powerful than him. I'm guessing Tune's suggestion came from Windu being second to Yoda in the Order, but he actually wasn't second to Yoda. Dooku was, actually, until Anakin came along. So, yeah, leave Windu out for now. Edited January 23, 2015 by Aurbere Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted January 23, 2015 Author Share Posted January 23, 2015 I concur with the result. Though I will say there was a bit of assumption in some areas regarding Plagueis' power. But, some corrections and thoughts for the main points. its also suggested that Plagueis may have been able to increase his midichlorian count He did, actually. And in doing so likely increased his own Force potential, theoretically doubling it. 1. Darth Caedus' and the Sith Emperor's displays of mental dominance. However on top of power, Plagueis has demonstrated impressive precision, circumventing the mental resistance of Hutts and the Yinchorri, has conjured an illusion that could fool Darth Sidious, and demonstrated powerful mental manipulation at a young age. I again see little reason to believe Plagueis not equal. I'm not sure I would deem him equal. He hasn't demonstrated that level of influence. I can sympathize with the logic, of course. Vitiate's use in particular is a feat of raw power as he attempts to overwhelm their minds and supplant their will with the Dark Side. Just some brief thoughts. I agree with the overall conclusion. Plagueis has accomplished feats that Vitiate and other Sith Lords greatly sought to accomplish. He has demonstrated superiority in mastery of not just the Dark Side, but of the Force itself.Can I get a source on that, only because I couldn't find anything? Well I suppose its theoretical, but merely because its an area that Plagueis did not apply himself in, preferring subtlety, however we are judging the Force power candidates are capable of wielding, as opposed to the breadth of ability. The point is again is that if the Sith Emperor's power was to be supplanted by Plagueis, he could still accomplish this. I do believe however he has demonstrated enough skill to be considered at the very least equal to Darth Caedus . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted January 23, 2015 Author Share Posted January 23, 2015 I would have to agree here. It's too soon for Mace to enter into the discussion. I feel that there are several individuals more powerful than him. I'm guessing Tune's suggestion came from Windu being second to Yoda in the Order, but he actually wasn't second to Yoda. Dooku was, actually, until Anakin came along. So, yeah, leave Windu out for now.Yeah and irregardless their was a large disparity between their abilities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 Can I get a source on that, only because I couldn't find anything? Well I suppose its theoretical, but merely because its an area that Plagueis did not apply himself in, preferring subtlety, however we are judging the Force power candidates are capable of wielding, as opposed to the breadth of ability. The point is again is that if the Sith Emperor's power was to be supplanted by Plagueis, he could still accomplish this. I do believe however he has demonstrated enough skill to be considered at the very least equal to Darth Caedus . Regardless, eight long years later, Plagueis remained convinced that he was on the verge of absolute success. The evidence was in his own increased midi-chlorian count; and in the power he sensed in Sidious when he had finally returned to Sojourn. —Darth Plagueis novelization It's in my thread, yo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cs_zoltan Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 Why is he not #4 yet? Are we actually waiting for something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted January 23, 2015 Author Share Posted January 23, 2015 Regardless, eight long years later, Plagueis remained convinced that he was on the verge of absolute success. The evidence was in his own increased midi-chlorian count; and in the power he sensed in Sidious when he had finally returned to Sojourn. —Darth Plagueis novelization It's in my thread, yo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 Why is he not #4 yet? Are we actually waiting for something? I don't know! We already have a full Council vote and 2 supporters! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted January 23, 2015 Author Share Posted January 23, 2015 I don't know! We already have a full Council vote and 2 supporters! Do we? I only counted one and two abstainers, can the supporters recast their support? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cs_zoltan Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 Do we? I only counted one and two abstainers, can the supporters recast their support? Here: http://media.giphy.com/media/VlNrHz96NP16g/giphy.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhyltran Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 (edited) Do we? I only counted one and two abstainers, can the supporters recast their support? I stated numerous times that I am on board with Plagueis being number four especially with the evidence I've uncovered in his favor and his defense that was aided by his midichlorians not to mention his feats of raw power, environment changes, and more. So CS and I are both in agreement. There's two supporters and most others aren't refuting Plagueis as four either. Edited January 23, 2015 by Rhyltran Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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