The REAL Most Powerful Force Users - Rebooted

[Ghisallo]

Midichlorians are essential to all life, and present in all living things, they effectively created him and cannot live without him, they are an essential aspect of every part of his body and can influence every part. They are not independent.

 

I think the key word or rather phrase there is "I used my will, amplified through my body’s own midi-chlorians", midichlorians are an essential aspect of Plagueis ability to use the Force, if not the most essential aspect, therefore coercing them is the definition of recognising and controlling the Force inside you.

 

Bear in mind that many Force powers involve all three aspects, but in the end you are merely applying techniques used to control your own body to control the body of another, so I feel it reflects mostly on skill in Control.

 

If you read the entire thing you would read that was his intent BUT the Midi-Chlroians rebelled against him. He then had to overcome their resistance to his mind control. You keep missing the key point. Ultimately there is no difference. The midichlorians in Plagueis are the same as those in Yoda, the same in Organa, the same in a tad pole. So he uses mind control (his words....sorry) on the Midi-Chlorians in another body BUT mentally they are same as the ones in his body due to the Universal mind. The most efficient way to resist the control is thus via the midi-chlorians "limbs" inside the body of the user.

 

However this is going in circles. I have shown the quotes but now are removing quotes from context in order to try and make a paragraph say something it clearly does not. I do understand they can use all aspects but I am sorry almost EVERY gosh damn time in every gosh darn book with Plagueis describes the process it is described using terms that one would use for mind control. You howver have decided to treat a sentient living being that is a symbiote inside a human like a red blood cell.

 

Debate over... you win through pure and senseless stubborness. So it's control... whatever.

Edited January 21, 2015 by Ghisallo

[Beniboybling]

I'd actually argue it is Palpatine's opinion he was equal to him at that moment but given he was letting palpatine. Given he wasn't even using the force to shield himself. Given that he was using entirely his regenerative abilities. Given that he stood there.. I wonder if he actually wanted to if he could have crushed him at that point in time. I'm not arguing Plagueis > Sidious. No, I'd never do that but I'm questioning if Plagueis might have been more closer to ROTS Sidious.

I think if Plagueis made an effort to fight conventionally, the battle would be hard fought and I'm really not sure who would have won, to be quite honest my bets are on Plagueis.

 

However its obvious Plagueis wanted to beat him with midichlorians, but failed.

 

I think he truly believe it made him invincible, but its pretty impressive that midichlorians along gave Plagueis so much power, and I'd also reaffirm that his ability to use midichlorians to control and protect his body is definitely Control.

 

When you think about it makes you wonder what Plagueis could have achieved. Imagine being completely immune to your enemies attacks? Being able to effectively regenerate faster than they can do damage, invincible and immortal.

[Rhyltran]

I think if Plagueis made an effort to fight conventionally, the battle would be hard fought and I'm really not sure who would have won, to be quite honest my bets are on Plagueis.

 

However its obvious Plagueis wanted to beat him with midichlorians, but failed.

 

I think he truly believe it made him invincible, but its pretty impressive that midichlorians along gave Plagueis so much power, and I'd also reaffirm that his ability to use midichlorians to control and protect his body is definitely Control.

 

When you think about it makes you wonder what Plagueis could have achieved. Imagine being completely immune to your enemies attacks? Being able to effectively regenerate faster than they can do damage, invincible and immortal.

 

Plagueis also honestly intended on making Sidious a partner and teach him his technique. He constantly spoke to himself about "Two immortal sith lords." Sidious jumped the gun on killing him. That I fully believe. At the same time Plagueis was never going to let Sidious in on everything. It'd have been a partnership that Plagueis always would have had the lead in and Sidious would never be able to keep up. That is precisely why Sidious realized he had to kill Plagueis. He pretty much says it in his rant as he's killing him.

 

Either way given what we know of Vitiate? I find it hard to put Vitiate over Plagueis. If he's that close to ROTS Sidious that means he's kind of close to Yoda. I know I sound like a broken record but yeah. I don't see Vitiate winning this. It's really hard to with everything considered.

 

As for your last bit? I agree. I think he thought he achieved this. He might have if he had some way of gaining oxygen during it.

Edited January 21, 2015 by Rhyltran

[Beniboybling]

If you read the entire thing you would read that was his intent BUT the Midi-Chlroians rebelled against him. He then had to overcome their resistance to his mind control. You keep missing the key point. Ultimately there is no difference. The midichlorians in Plagueis are the same as those in Yoda, the same in Organa, the same in a tad pole. So he uses mind control (his words....sorry) on the Midi-Chlorians in another body BUT mentally they are same as the ones in his body due to the Universal mind. The most efficient way to resist the control is thus via the midi-chlorians "limbs" inside the body of the user.

 

However this is going in circles. I have shown the quotes but now are removing quotes from context and I can not debate under such circumstances. It's simply too frustrating.

I think that his ability to coerce the midichlorians in the first place is Alter, but his ability to use them to manipulate his body and connection to the Force once he has dominated them is Control.

 

That would be my conclusion, and altogether I think it reflects more on Control than Alter.

Edited January 21, 2015 by Beniboybling

[Aurbere]

When you think about it makes you wonder what Plagueis could have achieved. Imagine being completely immune to your enemies attacks? Being able to effectively regenerate faster than they can do damage, invincible and immortal.

 

That was what I was thinking.

 

I fully believe that, if he had survived, he could have continued to increase his own midi-chlorian count to the point that he reached unlimited power, essentially a state of divinity.

 

And you know what? He could have done that without rituals.

[tunewalker]

Plagueis actually let himself die, as weird as that may sound, he made no effort to prevent himself from suffocating, he made no attempt to defend himself from Sidious lightining (who was using all of his power) and it killed him. He seemed to be attempting to save himself using midichlorians, but it failed and as a result he perished.

 

Bear in mind Vader was able to breath without his mask for a short time, Plagueis could not, this is not down to power, but the nature of their injuries. Vader just had damaged lungs, Plagueis' entire windpipe was severed.

 

Plagueis' TK outstrips Marek's massively, despite being in a severely weakened state Plagueis was capable of what Marek would have to unleash a full blown Force repulse to achieve with a mere wave of his hand.

 

Noting that turbolaser redirection is tutanimis, it has nothing to do with TK.

 

A wave of his hand you say... like this http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111118734/3256934-3444873428-21391.jpg

 

or this? http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/9/93477/3362762-8730315050-33344.jpg As far as I am Aware All Pre- ANH still weaker then RotJ Vader, Still weaker then Caedus.

[Aurbere]

A wave of his hand you say... like this http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111118734/3256934-3444873428-21391.jpg

 

or this? http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/9/93477/3362762-8730315050-33344.jpg As far as I am Aware All Pre- ANH still weaker then RotJ Vader, Still weaker then Caedus.

 

1. Plagueis did that and more on Bal'demnic

 

2. And if Plagueis at full strength did that he would have plastered the walls with their fleshy bits.

[Beniboybling]

That was what I was thinking.

 

I fully believe that, if he had survived, he could have continued to increase his own midi-chlorian count to the point that he reached unlimited power, essentially a state of divinity.

 

And you know what? He could have done that without rituals.

Well I guess that was Plagueis' plan, overcome Sidious attacks and then be all like:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_RFYoZ7H67A&t=5m12s

[Rhyltran]

A wave of his hand you say... like this http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111118734/3256934-3444873428-21391.jpg

 

or this? http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/9/93477/3362762-8730315050-33344.jpg As far as I am Aware All Pre- ANH still weaker then RotJ Vader, Still weaker then Caedus.

 

Honest question. Do you think Vader is more powerful than Episode 1 or clone wars Sidious?

[Beniboybling]

A wave of his hand you say... like this http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111118734/3256934-3444873428-21391.jpg

 

or this? http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/9/93477/3362762-8730315050-33344.jpg As far as I am Aware All Pre- ANH still weaker then RotJ Vader, Still weaker then Caedus.

Yes, accept imagine those people blown to pieces. Edited January 21, 2015 by Beniboybling

[tunewalker]

Honest question. Do you think Vader is more powerful than Episode 1 or clone wars Sidious?

 

Then TPM Sidious.... possibly..... Is Caedus.... Yes... I do believe so.

[Aurbere]

Well I guess that was Plagueis' plan, overcome Sidious attacks and then be all like:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_RFYoZ7H67A&t=5m12s

 

At first I though you were going to post

.

[tunewalker]

Yes, accept imagine those people blown to pieces.

 

I will if I can also imagine their being about 1/10 of them? Because that would a proper equivlant (Plaegus wasnt full power... neither was vader here, he is still long before prime)

[Beniboybling]

At first I though you were going to post

.

LOL! Yes, or

[Ghisallo]

Noting that turbolaser redirection is tutanimis, it has nothing to do with TK.

 

 

This I have been wrestling with. I thought tutanimis was simple redirection of energy BUT redirection of energy via your body. So Vader on bespin, Yoda in the senate, Satele on Alderan... tutanimis.

 

My question is Caedus. He is stopping the turbo laser bombardment, from the ground, before it can strike a population center. The describe it not as a blocking, absorption or redirection but as if he created a deflector shield. This sounds more like TK being used to create a protective barrier.

 

I only ask because the more I look at our list I can actually see where that specific feat lands as vital to the final tally. And tbh imo could be the difference be Cadeus being #1 or number 2 on our list.

[Aurbere]

LOL! Yes, or

 

Saved. For reasons.

[Aurbere]

This I have been wrestling with. I thought tutanimis was simple redirection of energy BUT redirection of energy via your body. So Vader on bespin, Yoda in the senate, Satele on Alderan... tutanimis.

 

My question is Caedus. He is stopping the turbo laser bombardment, from the ground, before it can strike a population center. The describe it not as a blocking, absorption or redirection but as if he created a deflector shield. This sounds more like TK being used to create a protective barrier.

 

I only ask because the more I look at our list I can actually see where that specific feat lands as vital to the final tally. And tbh imo could be the difference be Cadeus being #1 or number 2 on our list.

 

Well, the deflection of turbolaser weapons via Force Barrier isn't unheard of. Master Thon was capable of deflecting volleys from ship-based laser cannons.

[Beniboybling]

I will if I can also imagine their being about 1/10 of them? Because that would a proper equivlant (Plaegus wasnt full power... neither was vader here, he is still long before prime)

You're speculating, when we start talking about imagination we are doing something wrong. We don't know exactly what Plagueis would have been capable of at full power, we don't know what Plagueis would have been capable of is he had time to generate energy as Vader did. Fact is though Vader has done nothing that surpasses Plagueis, or that we can claim with absolute certainty that Plagueis is incapable of, so lets stop speculating, and look at the facts.

 

Caedus' Force waves were enough, in a weakened state, to blow apart rubble and send Mara Jade flying, Plagueis' were enough to blow apart non-Force sensitives, altogether both very powerful, I am not about to claim either superior.

[tunewalker]

This I have been wrestling with. I thought tutanimis was simple redirection of energy BUT redirection of energy via your body. So Vader on bespin, Yoda in the senate, Satele on Alderan... tutanimis.

 

My question is Caedus. He is stopping the turbo laser bombardment, from the ground, before it can strike a population center. The describe it not as a blocking, absorption or redirection but as if he created a deflector shield. This sounds more like TK being used to create a protective barrier.

 

I only ask because the more I look at our list I can actually see where that specific feat lands as vital to the final tally. And tbh imo could be the difference be Cadeus being #1 or number 2 on our list.

 

I agree with both your points thus far.

 

Also If I were to vote right now it would be between Caedus and Vitiate. Vitiate doesnt have a lot of accolades, and its hard to judge him. But look at Exar Kun. He has plenty to show just how powerful some one needs to be to claim Most powerful OR..... And Caedus I feel is the same there is a lot going into being "more then 80%most powerful Sith"

[Aurbere]

I will if I can also imagine their being about 1/10 of them? Because that would a proper equivlant (Plaegus wasnt full power... neither was vader here, he is still long before prime)

 

There's a difference between not being in your prime and on the brink of death. Most of Plagueis' energy would have gone into keeping himself conscious and performing those physical feats of awesomeness.

 

Vader, I do not believe, was not experiencing a similar phenomenon.

[tunewalker]

You're speculating, when we start talking about imagination we are doing something wrong. We don't know exactly what Plagueis would have been capable of at full power, we don't know what Plagueis would have been capable of is he had time to generate energy as Vader did. Fact is though Vader has done nothing that surpasses Plagueis, or that we can claim with absolute certainty that Plagueis is incapable of, so lets stop speculating, and look at the facts.

 

Caedus' Force waves were enough, in a weakened state, to blow apart rubble and send Mara Jade flying, Plagueis' were enough to blow apart non-Force sensitives, altogether both very powerful, I am not about to claim either superior.

 

Ok that is fair. I can respect saying "dont speculate one way or another, they are both strong saying one is better feat over the other may be to hard to call". Cus I can see how they would be hard to quatify one over the other....

[tunewalker]

There's a difference between not being in your prime and on the brink of death. Most of Plagueis' energy would have gone into keeping himself conscious and performing those physical feats of awesomeness.

 

Vader, I do not believe, was not experiencing a similar phenomenon.

 

Points to sels post about TK and Will power, and brink of death moments.

Edited January 21, 2015 by tunewalker

[Aurbere]

Points to sels post about TK and Will power, and brink of death moments.

 

Well, she's wrong, so whatever.

[Selenial]

Noting that turbolaser redirection is tutanimis, it has nothing to do with TK.

 

Actually no, I don't think it was. It's nothing like Tutaminis.

 

The Turbolasers were merely being rebounded as if he had a deflector shield, they were apparently being sent off wildly in other directions. That's doesn't sound like Tutaminis, as he's not absorbing and redirecting like Yoda did against Sidious.

[Beniboybling]

This I have been wrestling with. I thought tutanimis was simple redirection of energy BUT redirection of energy via your body. So Vader on bespin, Yoda in the senate, Satele on Alderan... tutanimis.

 

My question is Caedus. He is stopping the turbo laser bombardment, from the ground, before it can strike a population center. The describe it not as a blocking, absorption or redirection but as if he created a deflector shield. This sounds more like TK being used to create a protective barrier.

 

I only ask because the more I look at our list I can actually see where that specific feat lands as vital to the final tally. And tbh imo could be the difference be Cadeus being #1 or number 2 on our list.

What the Wookiee has to say on deflector shields:

 

The shield itself behaved in a manner similar to that of a thermally conductive material—energy applied was quickly diffused and re-radiated back into the environment, but the shield itself could also absorb some of the energy. The absorbed energy was shunted into heat sinks, and re-radiated at a lesser rate by the shield and neutrino radiators.

 

This is basically tutanimis in a nutshell, and a deflector shield is the most accurate metaphor to describe it. And to be quite honest I always treated most variants of the Force barrier technique to be a form of tutanimis.