Aurbere Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 He showed understanding and knowledge (can he TK.. ya that's knowledge, Did he move small objects and large objects alike with similar ease.. Thats understanding) You could bring up as many examples as you wish, and I can tear each of them apart. Sure you could. Once you demonstrate Caedus' actual power instead this speculation, then we can talk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted January 21, 2015 Author Share Posted January 21, 2015 Raw Power= Connection= Caedus Pure Power= Connection + Understanding + knowledge= Which what you just quoted says= Caedus. Knowledge and understanding of the force is how some one REACHES their potential.. thus it is relevant.Knowledge and understanding of the Force are indications of power, which are arguably evident in their displays. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cs_zoltan Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 (edited) Trust me I dont misunderstand the purpose. and to the "incorrect" I disagree. I feel his percision matches or surpasses any one here, I feel his knowledge of the esoteric matches or surpasses any one here. And I know his connection does as well. As such I do believe he has both More Raw power, and Pure power in the force. I do not believe this is a who would win in a fight... that is MUCH more complicated and we would need to account for mentality, fighting styles, size, weight, speed, prefered methodology of using or not using Force powers in combat, habits and OH so much more.... Pove it then, so far you only provided vague assumption. Edited January 21, 2015 by cs_zoltan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhyltran Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 (edited) Trust me I dont misunderstand the purpose. and to the "incorrect" I disagree. I feel his percision matches or surpasses any one here, I feel his knowledge of the esoteric matches or surpasses any one here. And I know his connection does as well. As such I do believe he has both More Raw power, and Pure power in the force. I do not believe this is a who would win in a fight... that is MUCH more complicated and we would need to account for mentality, fighting styles, size, weight, speed, prefered methodology of using or not using Force powers in combat, habits and OH so much more.... His knowledge of the esoteric is irrelevant unless those esoteric abilities achieve a result that is far more fantastic than what other characters have done. We're not gauging knowledge but raw power. If someone knows every force power in existence but can barely lift a cup I'm not going to say "Well... he knows every force power including the rare ones and the ones people seem to be born with so we can compare him to Yoda in terms of power.." no. I wouldn't. That character cannot match the power of other characters. Edited January 21, 2015 by Rhyltran Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 I really don't have the time, but in brief. In regards to Control, Revan has impressive tutanimis feats, demonstrating the ability to deflect Nyriss' lightning with culpable ease, however the Sith Emperor on two occassions has demonstrated the ability to obliterate 12 and then 9 members of the Dark Council with equal ease, there is no evidence to suggest he would struggle against Nyriss' lightining, and much evidence to the contrary. In regards to Sense, the Emperor's displays are inadequate and the indication is he lacked skill in this arena, so Revan is superior. Finally in regards to Alter, the Sith Emperor reigns supreme, at a young age he was capable of mentally dominating and Force draining a Sith Lord, and in his prime dispatched a strike team of some of the Order's most powerful Jedi with ease, he has also as previously mentioned in two separate occasions obliterated the Dark Council. What is to be take away from this is the Sith Emperor's ability to dominate lesser Force Users with his exceptional abilities in Alter. This is something Revan lacks, who has been repeatedly been forced to engage Force Users that the Sith Emperor would otherwise destroy in protracted engagements, such as Darth Bandon, Darth Malak, Uthar Wynn and an innumerable number of Force sensitive acolytes, and as a Sith Lord he also appeared prepared to engage Bastila and the Jedi Strike Team in lightsaber combat, apparently incapable of obliterating them outright with the Force. Indeed Revan has even been forced to engage non-Force sensitives in protracted engagements such as Calo Nord. In his prime little changed, aboard the Foundry Revan was forced to engage and defeated by Lord Kallig, Baras' Apprentices and a pair of non-Force sensitives, Force Uses of a calibre the Sith Emperor could easily destroy. And even when empowered by the nexus of Yavin 4, Revan was forced to engage and was defeated by Satele Shan, Darth Marr, Beniko and unconfirmed supporters. It is quite obvious Revan totally lacks the Sith Emperor's Alter powers. Finally as an addendum, the Sith Emperor has demonstrated Alter on a planetary and even galactic scale, effecting the environment, striking without the need for LOS, capable of siphoning the energies of billions from light years away. It goes without saying that this kind of scope was beyond Revan, who has failed to ever demonstrate such power. That was longer than expected, but I hope it serves to prove that the Sith Emperor's superiority over Revan was obvious well before he engaged him, and that all you need to do is look at the limitations of characters to gauge ability.. No it doesnt... First he used alter power to defeat the Council members not control, so it suggests nothing on his control level. The council members are unknown so assuming they are as strong as some one that can turn another to husks is a stretch by every sense of the word. You are using same era stuff and forgetting that the basis of the arguement is around cross era stuff. This would be no different then me Argueing vader could defeat Vitiate because Vader could dispatch just as many jedi just as easily as Vitiate did the council Control: Revan has shrugged off poison used valor and redirected lightning that could turn people into husks. Vitate... hasnt really done anything accept essence transfer Control winner: Revan Sense: do I need to say it? Sense Revan Alter: Vitiate has shown massively powerful things such as dispatching 12 powerful sith in an instance, Revan has shown massive tk Feats but honestly not as good as Vitiate Alter Vitiate If equals we expect to see Control: Jedi Sense: tie Alter : sith In this case we see Control: Revan (jedi) Sense:Revan (Jedi) Alter: Vitiate (sith) well the alter and control landed where they should for Jedi and Sith differences tie breaker is Sense... Winner Revan. If they were from different Era's Revan would win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 His knowledge of the esoteric is irrelevant unless those esoteric abilities achieve a result that is far more fantastic than what other characters have done. We're not gauging knowledge but raw power. If someone knows every force power in existence but can barely lift a cup I'm not going to say "Well... he knows every force power including the rare ones and the ones people seem to be born with so we can compare him to Yoda in terms of power.." no. I wouldn't. That character cannot match the power of other characters. Sidious knows all known force powers.. that is part of what makes him the most powerful Sith ever Understanding is still important.... and was ignored in that post. (they arent the same thing) Raw power= Connection= Caedus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhyltran Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 (edited) No it doesnt... First he used alter power to defeat the Council members not control, so it suggests nothing on his control level. The council members are unknown so assuming they are as strong as some one that can turn another to husks is a stretch by every sense of the word. You are using same era stuff and forgetting that the basis of the arguement is around cross era stuff. This would be no different then me Argueing vader could defeat Vitiate because Vader could dispatch just as many jedi just as easily as Vitiate did the council Control: Revan has shrugged off poison used valor and redirected lightning that could turn people into husks. Vitate... hasnt really done anything accept essence transfer Control winner: Revan Sense: do I need to say it? Sense Revan Alter: Vitiate has shown massively powerful things such as dispatching 12 powerful sith in an instance, Revan has shown massive tk Feats but honestly not as good as Vitiate Alter Vitiate If equals we expect to see Control: Jedi Sense: tie Alter : sith In this case we see Control: Revan (jedi) Sense:Revan (Jedi) Alter: Vitiate (sith) well the alter and control landed where they should for Jedi and Sith differences tie breaker is Sense... Winner Revan. If they were from different Era's Revan would win. If they were from different Eras and Revan didn't fight Vitiate and this is the best Vitiate has done? Yes. We would be inclined to think Revan was better. We'd have no reason NOT to. So what's wrong with this? Sidious knows all known force powers.. that is part of what makes him the most powerful Sith ever Understanding is still important.... and was ignored in that post. (they arent the same thing) Raw power= Connection= Caedus. Except we barely use the fact that Sidious has all known powers. What we use is his FEATS. Edited January 21, 2015 by Rhyltran Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 Like I said, screw it...I'm done. Those asking me to prove Caedus's "power" I already did. I proved his connection with quotes from Luke. I proved his knowledge with showing of esoteric, and I proved his understanding through his percision. All of which is listed under His feats. To me that is power in the force, and proof of it, its more then "turning a guy into charcoal" which even Nyriss accomplished, some one that was LAWL 1 shotted by some one I believe to be weaker then every candidate here. The best TK feats being Plaegus Ripping people apart, which galen 4 tiers bellow Caedus has achieved. I'm done, you will do as you desire and choose as you desire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 If they were from different Eras and Revan didn't fight Vitiate and this is the best Vitiate has done? Yes. We would be inclined to think Revan was better. We'd have no reason NOT to. So what's wrong with this? Except we barely use the fact that Sidious has all known powers. What we use is his FEATS. What is wrong with it... its wrong. That's what is wrong. Just like Vader's BEST feat is right here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_RFYoZ7H67A, if we were to judge him as weak in the force based on this scene, we would be wrong as it is his strongest force showing. Meaning our methods are flawed... but I am just talking in circles... you all know this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhyltran Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 (edited) Like I said, screw it...I'm done. Those asking me to prove Caedus's "power" I already did. I proved his connection with quotes from Luke. I proved his knowledge with showing of esoteric, and I proved his understanding through his percision. All of which is listed under His feats. To me that is power in the force, and proof of it, its more then "turning a guy into charcoal" which even Nyriss accomplished, some one that was LAWL 1 shotted by some one I believe to be weaker then every candidate here. The best TK feats being Plaegus Ripping people apart, which galen 4 tiers bellow Caedus has achieved. I'm done, you will do as you desire and choose as you desire. Except in terms of who has more raw power to bring to bear against someone none of those proves he has more "physical." power than the rest. Precision isn't physical power. It's help in a duel certainly but it doesn't give an example in a "power contest" that he'd be able to overpower his peers. In terms of a "power contest" the number of esoteric abilities doesn't aid in "overpowering" his foes. Imagine if we were using this to determine a force arm wrestling match. Will precision help him win in a force power struggle? The number of abilities he knows? No. You seem to be at loss here. We have evidence that Caedus is stronger than Nyriss. We have evidence that Caedus is stronger than Revan. We have evidence that Caedus is stronger than.. I mean those aren't even candidates here. We have it based on some raw power feats. What is wrong with it... its wrong. That's what is wrong. Just like Vader's BEST feat is right here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_RFYoZ7H67A, if we were to judge him as weak in the force based on this scene, we would be wrong as it is his strongest force showing. Meaning our methods are flawed... but I am just talking in circles... you all know this. Which part in that video are you using as his greatest force feat? Edited January 21, 2015 by Rhyltran Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcheseAMM Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 (edited) This thread is a trainwreck, good gosh. Selenial,, you were probably better off just doing the list by yourself. Edited January 21, 2015 by MarcheseAMM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted January 21, 2015 Author Share Posted January 21, 2015 No it doesnt... First he used alter power to defeat the Council members not control, so it suggests nothing on his control level. The council members are unknown so assuming they are as strong as some one that can turn another to husks is a stretch by every sense of the word. You are using same era stuff and forgetting that the basis of the arguement is around cross era stuff. This would be no different then me Argueing vader could defeat Vitiate because Vader could dispatch just as many jedi just as easily as Vitiate did the council Control: Revan has shrugged off poison used valor and redirected lightning that could turn people into husks. Vitate... hasnt really done anything accept essence transfer Control winner: Revan Sense: do I need to say it? Sense Revan Alter: Vitiate has shown massively powerful things such as dispatching 12 powerful sith in an instance, Revan has shown massive tk Feats but honestly not as good as Vitiate Alter Vitiate If equals we expect to see Control: Jedi Sense: tie Alter : sith In this case we see Control: Revan (jedi) Sense:Revan (Jedi) Alter: Vitiate (sith) well the alter and control landed where they should for Jedi and Sith differences tie breaker is Sense... Winner Revan. If they were from different Era's Revan would win.I'm suggesting the Sith Emperor has the raw power to deflect Nyriss' attacks (using tutanimis, a Control power) with ease. It is also extremely unlikely that Nyriss is stronger than 9 - 12 Force users and a threat to the Sith Emperor. The fact that Nyriss is from the TOR era has nothing to do with her inferiority to 9 to 12 powerful Force Users, a feat that is prove that the Sith Emperor is easily capable of dispatching those strong in the Force with little effort. There is no evidence to suggest the Sith Emperor would be unable to shrug of poison, considering his power it is unlikely, you are appealing to an absence of evidence here and it does nothing for your argument. The don't ascribe to the logic that Jedi are naturally superior in Control and Sith naturally superior in Alter. Regardless, the only basis for you claiming that Revan is superior to the Sith Emperor is because Revan has resisted poison and the Sith Emperor has not, that argument is unfortunately as ridiculous as it sounds. Nor are you accounting for the sheer disparity between Revan and the Sith Emperor's displays of Alter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 Anyway folks, nothing productive is going to come from questioning the system and looking forlorn. Tunewalker makes some valid points, and I suggest he apply them specifically to the debates at hand rather than fighting. I have been trying... with my arguement of Connection, Knoweldge and understanding... its not working, its being ignored... but that's ok.. I will continue to reason things the way I do, show what I come up with and let the powers that be make the final choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcheseAMM Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 Beni, what even is the argument here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhyltran Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 (edited) I have been trying... with my arguement of Connection, Knoweldge and understanding... its not working, its being ignored... but that's ok.. I will continue to reason things the way I do, show what I come up with and let the powers that be make the final choice. No one agrees with your argument because it doesn't make sense. Sorry. We get what you're saying. We just disagree with you. Beni, what even is the argument here? Tune is arguing that using feats isn't a proper way to determine who is the most powerful. You need to look at their connection and knowledge of the force. Edited January 21, 2015 by Rhyltran Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 I'm suggesting the Sith Emperor has the raw power to deflect Nyriss' attacks (using tutanimis, a Control power) with ease. It is also extremely unlikely that Nyriss is stronger than 9 - 12 Force users and a threat to the Sith Emperor. The fact that Nyriss is from the TOR era has nothing to do with her inferiority to 9 to 12 powerful Force Users, a feat that is prove that the Sith Emperor is easily capable of dispatching those strong in the Force with little effort. There is no evidence to suggest the Sith Emperor would be unable to shrug of poison, considering his power it is unlikely, you are appealing to an absence of evidence here and it does nothing for your argument. The don't ascribe to the logic that Jedi are naturally superior in Control and Sith naturally superior in Alter. Regardless, the only basis for you claiming that Revan is superior to the Sith Emperor is because Revan has resisted poison and the Sith Emperor has not, that argument is unfortunately as ridiculous as it sounds. Nor are you accounting for the sheer disparity between Revan and the Sith Emperor's displays of Alter. The only arguement that Caedus is inferior to Plaegus is that his percision lightning attacks that werent meant to turn people to charcoal, didnt turn people into charcoal, which is as ridiculous as it sounds. For control I had more then that. Alter is not control. Vitiate has next to no Control feats to my knowledge except essence transfer which isnt exactly unique. Revan has far more so Revan wins control I wasnt going to go deep into it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted January 21, 2015 Author Share Posted January 21, 2015 I have been trying... with my arguement of Connection, Knoweldge and understanding... its not working, its being ignored... but that's ok.. I will continue to reason things the way I do, show what I come up with and let the powers that be make the final choice.The statements you are making are too broad and blanketing, you need to apply this specifically to control, sense and alter, prove why these supposed superiority makes him better than Plagueis in these respective fields. If you generalize people will just throw general comments back at you, and you'll get nowhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcheseAMM Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 Tune is arguing that using feats isn't a proper way to determine who is the most powerful. You need to look at their connection and knowledge of the force. This is why we can't have nice things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 No one agrees with your argument because it doesn't make sense. Sorry. We get what you're saying. We just disagree with you. Tune is arguing that using feats isn't a proper way to determine who is the most powerful. You need to look at their connection and knowledge of the force. no, no... that's not what I am arguing... I am arguing Size doesnt matter. Turning people into charcoal doesnt matter. Magnitude doesnt matter. especially when someone's magnitude is not at its limit. You are still only argueing 2/3 of the points Connection Knoweldge Understanding this again is a failing to understand.. the meaning of understanding and its difference from knowledge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cs_zoltan Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 Like I said, screw it...I'm done. Those asking me to prove Caedus's "power" I already did. I proved his connection with quotes from Luke. I proved his knowledge with showing of esoteric, and I proved his understanding through his percision. All of which is listed under His feats. To me that is power in the force, and proof of it, its more then "turning a guy into charcoal" which even Nyriss accomplished, some one that was LAWL 1 shotted by some one I believe to be weaker then every candidate here. The best TK feats being Plaegus Ripping people apart, which galen 4 tiers bellow Caedus has achieved. I'm done, you will do as you desire and choose as you desire. And how that puts him above Plagueis but not Yoda? You are grasping at straws. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 The statements you are making are too broad and blanketing, you need to apply this specifically to control, sense and alter, prove why these supposed superiority makes him better than Plagueis in these respective fields. If you generalize people will just throw general comments back at you, and you'll get nowhere. Ok I will do it later. I am going to go get stuff done... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcheseAMM Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 Tune, that idea sounds worse then Beni's alter/control/sense, which is already bad and misleading. I do not approve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 Tune, that idea sounds worse then Beni's alter/control/sense, which is already bad and misleading. I do not approve. I know, partially cus its not being translated right, and because its more complicated then that. This isnt easy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhyltran Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 (edited) no, no... that's not what I am arguing... I am arguing Size doesnt matter. Turning people into charcoal doesnt matter. Magnitude doesnt matter. especially when someone's magnitude is not at its limit. You are still only argueing 2/3 of the points Connection Knoweldge Understanding this again is a failing to understand.. the meaning of understanding and its difference from knowledge. Except that reduces this down to speculation. Size matters. Power matters. Midichlorian counts matter. Feats matter. I don't care how precise or knowledgeable someone is when their biggest displays lag behind other characters. In a contest of who has the most power I'm going to look at who's shown they have the most power. I'm not going to "speculate" about who has the most power. Going to be honest. I'm not a fan of the alter, control, or sense category too. I don't think applying it to these categories matter. Find the most impressive displays and use them. Who cares about labels? That's my opinion of course. Edited January 21, 2015 by Rhyltran Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 (edited) Except that reduces this down to speculation. Size matters. Power matters. Midichlorian counts matter. Feats matter. I don't care how precise or knowledgeable someone is when their biggest displays lag behind other characters. In a contest of who has the most power I'm going to look at who's shown they have the most power. I'm not going to "speculate" about who has the most power. Well then lets look at TK Caedus> Vader> Star Kilerl> Galen who moved a Star Destroyer Best TK Feat Plaegus= Blasting apart 6 guys Winner Galen< Star Killer < Vader < Caedus Winner= Caedus. There your feats for you. Edited January 21, 2015 by tunewalker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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