Ghisallo Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 PS if not for the quotes noted I would be like "meh...I guess it could go either way so who cares." With the quotes at a minimum we have to place Midi-chlorian manipulation as a matter of both Control and Alter, but certainly not just control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 Further along the lines, "we are symbiotes with them," "2 creatures living together for a mutual advantage" Control is recognizing the force within ONE'S SELF... The Midichlorians are NOT One's Self... and they are not the Force, they are just an organism that has a strong connection to it, and are drawn to creatures that also have that connection to assist those in understanding it. Altering its will, is no different then a mind trick. Its alter, even Wookie lists it as so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 Well, if you want to put it in Alter then we render any Alter comparison laughable at best. So that would be fine with me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted January 21, 2015 Author Share Posted January 21, 2015 But they are independent of him. They were not created by his body, they don't even directly effect his body the way another organism would. I think you are missing the mechanism. Here is how the Book of Sith described the resistance... Key words...my will... Midi-Chlorian voices... Resist this imposition. When you say you are using your will to override the voices of another sentient being what does that say? From Darth Plagueis How do you instruct a sentient being outside your own body to go somewhere without Alter?Midichlorians are essential to all life, and present in all living things, they effectively created him and cannot live without him, they are an essential aspect of every part of his body and can influence every part. They are not independent. I think the key word or rather phrase there is "I used my will, amplified through my body’s own midi-chlorians", midichlorians are an essential aspect of Plagueis ability to use the Force, if not the most essential aspect, therefore coercing them is the definition of recognising and controlling the Force inside you. Bear in mind that many Force powers involve all three aspects, but in the end you are merely applying techniques used to control your own body to control the body of another, so I feel it reflects mostly on skill in Control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cs_zoltan Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 Well, if you want to put it in Alter then we render any Alter comparison laughable at best. So that would be fine with me. Whatever...Plagueis is #4 anyway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 Whatever...Plagueis is #4 anyway /5char Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted January 21, 2015 Author Share Posted January 21, 2015 (edited) Further along the lines, "we are symbiotes with them," "2 creatures living together for a mutual advantage" Control is recognizing the force within ONE'S SELF... The Midichlorians are NOT One's Self... and they are not the Force, they are just an organism that has a strong connection to it, and are drawn to creatures that also have that connection to assist those in understanding it. Altering its will, is no different then a mind trick. Its alter, even Wookie lists it as so.They are the means by which living things communicate with the Force, and are therefore intrinsically linked, you cannot separate the two. They are not drawn to those with a connection to the Force, they provide that connection, and exist in everything. And they are no less part of your being than your blood or brain cells. Not to say it doesn't reflect on mental manipulation as well, but we cannot ignore its Control properties. P.S. The Wookiee is not canon unless sourced, and lists art of small as alter as well. Edited January 21, 2015 by Beniboybling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 Whatever...Plagueis is #4 anyway Good. You're learning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 i'm not sure a case was made a little while ago for Caedus, that makes me lean towards him. Skywalker means essentially strongest connection to the force here, so the only question would be Knowledge and understanding. and by showing the number of esoteric abilities Caedus shows knowledge, and by utilizing Lightning and other skills with the percision of a surgeon with a scalple shows massive amounts of understanding. He may not USE it in magnitudes greater, but that doesnt mean he doesnt HAVE it in magnitudes greater. Its my comparison with Vader vs Luke in RotJ. The fight may not look impressive, but that is them putting more power in then they did for prettty much anything else. Essentially throwing fighters around is easy compared to the saber duel they engaged in. but jsut looking you wouldnt know that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 (edited) Being a Skywalker does not make one any more of a candidate than the others. Nor should you believe that Caedus' 'surgical' application of Force lightning is unique. Indeed, Plagueis has shown a similar capacity for Force lightning. He has shown a subtle application of lightning as well as standard combative applications. Edited January 21, 2015 by Aurbere Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 They are the means by which living things communicate with the Force, and are therefore intrinsically linked, you cannot separate the two. They are not drawn to those with a connection to the Force, they provide that connection, and exist in everything. And they are no less part of your being than your blood or brain cells. Not to say it doesn't reflect on mental manipulation as well, but we cannot ignore its Control properties. P.S. The Wookiee is not canon unless sourced, and lists art of small as alter as well. I list Art of small as alter as well, or sense.... but its not control that's for sure They live INSIDE your blood..... key word is actually LIVE... they are a seperate entity, forever and for always. This is probably why no one was able to do it before.....everyone kept looking at midi-chlorians and thinking one way or the other. Either Oh they are inside ME, so they are ME so I have to master Myself to master them... and that didnt work cus they ARENT you... Or people thought I need to be able to alter the things living around me, so that I can alter these things living inside me, but that didnt work... because it WAS inside them. I honestly think this debate is getting circular. Neither of us can say for sure.... which is why I am saying just go with what was agreed upon on wookie. We both have good reasons for a our beliefs, and because of that if we continued it would just be a circular argument, neither one of us ever convincing the other. Not because we are unreasonable, but because we are and we just reasoned it differently. So for me, and the way I judge, its alter. And I will place my judgement based on that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cs_zoltan Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 Good. You're learning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 Being a Skywalker does not make one any more of a candidate than the others. Nor should you believe that Caedus' 'surgical' application of Force lightning is superior to the lightning applied by others. Indeed, Plagueis has shown a similar capacity for Force lightning. He has shown a subtle application of lightning as well as standard combative applications. Being a skywalker makes him have greater CONNECTION to the force then any one here. He had a greater connection then Luke (who admitedly was "losing some connection" later in life just from age) who inherited the connection of his Father, Anakin, who was meant to replace... THE FATHER... and keep balance over the Daughter and The Son. There is 0 chance that any one here has a greater connection to the force. The only argument then that is relavent, is Knowledge and Understanding. Caedus shows equivlant in both. Every one here has esoteric abilities, Caedus has just as much as any one else here, making his knoweldge at least equal to all here. His subtle applications suggest understanding, it DOESNT mean OTHERS DONT have that understanding, but if he EQUALS THEM in Knowledge and understanding his greater connection automatically makes him stronger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cs_zoltan Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 Being a skywalker makes him have greater CONNECTION to the force then any one here. He had a greater connection then Luke (who admitedly was "losing some connection" later in life just from age) who inherited the connection of his Father, Anakin, who was meant to replace... THE FATHER... and keep balance over the Daughter and The Son. There is 0 chance that any one here has a greater connection to the force. The only argument then that is relavent, is Knowledge and Understanding. Caedus shows equivlant in both. Every one here has esoteric abilities, Caedus has just as much as any one else here, making his knoweldge at least equal to all here. His subtle applications suggest understanding, it DOESNT mean OTHERS DONT have that understanding, but if he EQUALS THEM in Knowledge and understanding his greater connection automatically makes him stronger. If that'd be true then top10 would look like this: #1. Luke #2. Leia #3. Caedus #4. Jaina etc etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 Being a skywalker makes him have greater CONNECTION to the force then any one here. He had a greater connection then Luke (who admitedly was "losing some connection" later in life just from age) who inherited the connection of his Father, Anakin, who was meant to replace... THE FATHER... and keep balance over the Daughter and The Son. There is 0 chance that any one here has a greater connection to the force. The only argument then that is relavent, is Knowledge and Understanding. Caedus shows equivlant in both. Every one here has esoteric abilities, Caedus has just as much as any one else here, making his knoweldge at least equal to all here. His subtle applications suggest understanding, it DOESNT mean OTHERS DONT have that understanding, but if he EQUALS THEM in Knowledge and understanding his greater connection automatically makes him stronger. So we should just say that Caedus' connection automatically makes him stronger than people who have, you know, shown greater strength than him? Why not just put him above Yoda? Yoda is no Skywalker. Seriously, we should be basing our list on power, not names and titles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cs_zoltan Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 http://youtu.be/pSwy412nttI?t=5m57s Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 http://youtu.be/pSwy412nttI?t=5m57s http://youtu.be/pSwy412nttI?t=6m35s Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 Being a Skywalker does not make one any more of a candidate than the others. Nor should you believe that Caedus' 'surgical' application of Force lightning is unique. Indeed, Plagueis has shown a similar capacity for Force lightning. He has shown a subtle application of lightning as well as standard combative applications. A surgical application of lightning shows knowledge, not power anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted January 21, 2015 Author Share Posted January 21, 2015 I list Art of small as alter as well, or sense.... but its not control that's for sure They live INSIDE your blood..... key word is actually LIVE... they are a seperate entity, forever and for always. This is probably why no one was able to do it before.....everyone kept looking at midi-chlorians and thinking one way or the other. Either Oh they are inside ME, so they are ME so I have to master Myself to master them... and that didnt work cus they ARENT you... Or people thought I need to be able to alter the things living around me, so that I can alter these things living inside me, but that didnt work... because it WAS inside them. I honestly think this debate is getting circular. Neither of us can say for sure.... which is why I am saying just go with what was agreed upon on wookie. We both have good reasons for a our beliefs, and because of that if we continued it would just be a circular argument, neither one of us ever convincing the other. Not because we are unreasonable, but because we are and we just reasoned it differently. So for me, and the way I judge, its alter. And I will place my judgement based on that.Blood cells are alive too y'know. I see no distinction between them and midichlorians. They are a necessary part of your biological functions, so yes I'd say they are part of you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cs_zoltan Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 http://youtu.be/pSwy412nttI?t=6m35s I knew it was coming, and already prepared: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcheseAMM Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 Did the Plagueis fans finally concede yet Plagueis is not more impressive then Vader, or no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted January 21, 2015 Author Share Posted January 21, 2015 Did the Plagueis fans finally concede yet Plagueis is not more impressive then Vader, or no?I think they are still waiting for a credible argument... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcheseAMM Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 I think they are still waiting for a credible argument... So you are legitimately interested in a Vader vs Plagueis debate? :woah: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 I think they are still waiting for a credible argument... Implying such a thing is possible? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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