The REAL Most Powerful Force Users - Rebooted

[PadsterPwns]

Valkorion has surpassed Plagueis in all respects IMO.

 

Fair enough, I don't really have much to back up my argument like I said I need to learn more anyway. Well that's after I've finished my Conquest faction.

[Jarons]

Fair enough, I don't really have much to back up my argument like I said I need to learn more anyway. Well that's after I've finished my Conquest faction.

Join us we have Sloppy joes Tuesday everyone is invited.

[PadsterPwns]

Join us we have Sloppy joes Tuesday everyone is invited.

 

I just had to google what a sloppy joe was. If I'd known what they looked like before I wouldn't have joined Conquest.

[S_W_LeGenD]

Valkorion's incorporeal feats can be compared with Palpatine's incorporeal feats (and have) in order to establish superiority, but because the intrinsic differences in nature, Vakorion's incorporeal feats cannot be compared to Palpatine's corporeal accomplishments, unless you can prove he can perform them in bodily form. Pretty simple.

This is why black and white comparisons are not fair, specially when comparing entities.

 

One really shines in disembodied form (i.e. Valkorion) while the other really shines in corporeal form (i.e. Palpatine). However, we should focus on the context as well. As I pointed out earlier, Palpatine used cloned bodies during the events of DE and could afford to overlook their well-being. In contrast, Valkorion didn't use cloned bodies and was more calculative in his actions due to reasons that have also been mentioned earlier.

 

If you are hell bent on black and white comparisons then compare both in disembodied and corporeal forms [separately]. However, I prefer a holistic comparison in which context behind each decision, action and revelation is taken in to consideration.

 

And yes, you have critiqued my theories many times. However of late you seem to have admitted that the limitations of the mortal coil, and yet continue to disregard my theories as false. Funny that.

I would not have an issue with a theory (if) it seems to be flawless and doesn't have noticeable loopholes. However, I have noticed some loopholes in your theory and I am attempting to address them [only]. After reading your [relevant] blog on comicvine, a reader gets the impression that Valkorion somehow becomes all-powerful and is able to do stuff [in disembodied form] that he cannot otherwise because [insert Cosmic Force nonsense here]. However, a codex entry makes it absolutely clear that Valkorion used (his) immense powers to do stuff on Ziost (Plain and simple); your argument that the Cosmic Force somehow amplified Valkorion's abilities [in disembodied form] does not fly. Valkorion is not a Force ghost and he is not one with the Force, period (he may give the vibe of being a Force ghost but he is actually different). Now, even a typical Force ghost is far from being all-powerful (the most a typical Force ghost can do is to manifest anywhere at any moment where living beings are present and manipulate the physical realm in a limited fashion; nothing grand or planet-busting level). Otherwise, Force ghosts would have altered the history. Valkorion is not more potent in use of (any) Force power in disembodied form then he is in corporeal form. In-fact, Arcann noticed that Valkorion have been compromised to some extent after loosing his Voice [in KoTFE].

 

Primary differences between Vakorion's disembodied and corporeal forms are that Valkorion can traverse vast distances unaided [in disembodied form] which is not possible with a corporeal vessel without a formal means of transport and Valkorion cannot be stopped through conventional means [in disembodied form]. Furthermore, Valkorion may not channel his full power through a corporeal vessel because he risks harming it in the process. This is what I acknowledge.

 

Also, concentrate on some feats of the Dread Masters and Darth Caedus. They have done some crazy stuff as mere mortals; the Dread Masters even more-so. We (as players) witnessed the Dread Masters cast realistic illusions, create mind traps, slow down time, resurrect dead beings, teleport [themselves and players] and even Flow-walk during combat situations. Yes, Dread Masters would often work [in unison] to do some crazy stuff but each Dread Master is (officially) a master of the Dark Side of the Force. There is no reason to believe that Valkorion cannot do the same in corporeal form just because we didn't witness him doing so since he is more masterful in the ways of the Force then each of the aforementioned Sith. CIP: Valkorion haven't choked anybody during a confrontation so should we assume that he cannot?

 

Valkorion has surpassed Plagueis in all respects IMO.

Indeed.

Edited November 3, 2015 by S_W_LeGenD

[Aurbere]

As usual some of what we are seeing here has heavy use of game mechanics, specifically boss fights and raid mechanics, Raid Mechanics which are specifically designed with 8 people in mind, using multiple phases and stuff that "looks cool", but is in no way should be considered indicative of how powerful the person was or what they were capable of, especially when there is a means to bypass doing the raid, and he doesnt use those tactics against the coalition (which is just as large)/ a lot of fight mechanics from the coalition again which was designed with the idea that 1 person does it with a bunch of mindless NPC's, both of which Revan still lost, and the Coalition while made up of 2 strong force users none of the rest have proven to be all that significant.

 

1. Revan's a game character. Ignoring what occurs in the fights opens us to ignoring the feats themselves. When discussing a game character, you kinda have to discuss the mechanics too.

 

2. It's confirmed in KOTFE that the TOS battle does happen.

 

3. Scripted mechanics are story-based, and that is all that I referred to. I didn't even bring up Revan's ability to forcefully forge bonds with people to corrupt their spirits or his ability to create aberrations of pure dark side energy. The only thing I did bring up is his use of TK saber combat in the fight. It was merely to show ability, but I'll ignore it to ease your mind.

 

4. The rest of the Coalition is not inept at all, lol. Shae Vizla (however you spell it) was one of the greatest Mandalorian Warriors of the era and saw more combat and more victories than even the era's Mandalore. Both Theron and Jakarro survived an encounter with Darth Arkous, who is 'immensely powerful'. They aren't feebs, lol.

 

The best thing noted there and I must applaud is, as usual Revan's fair against Vitiate. Vitiate/ Valkorien is the "Emperor" of his time, the "Sidious" of his time if you will, and the way Revan faced him was as the RotJ Luke of his time, the power the 2 showed were relative to one another RotJ Sidious is to RotJ Luke as Vitiate is to Revan, even if we assume Revan got stronger, I still dont see it being anything beyond being the RotJ Luke of Valkorien, and if Valkorien is < Sidious, then by that extention Revan < RotJ Vader. Story wise it works, relative to what they faced it works, feats wise it works, it is just what makes the most sense.

 

That makes very little sense. Luke's run-in with Palpatine is nothing like Revan's with Vitiate. Luke dropped his weapon and all bu surrendered. Revan actually fought Vitiate. So, no, they aren't even close to the same. And the logic that similar story elements means that the two characters must be the same power-level is horribly flawed as well.

 

The main hit is all the non-canon fight mechanics, fight mechanics, numbers... they arent canon material, anything that exists solely for gameplay is non-canon, and fight mechanics by definition usually exist solely for the party to HAVE a raid encounter with a big name attached. They could have called the boss Joe Capechi with his side kick protocol droid C-2DUM and the fight would have been designed the exact same way. They could then say Joe was a low class nobody and it wouldn't mean all of a sudden that every one that is a some one is stronger then Palpatine , the names mean something the dialog means something the mechanics do not, they never have.

 

And you can prove it all exists solely for gameplay?

 

Here's a heads-up, there's a difference between gameplay mechanics and scripted story mechanics. I happened upon the data for the fights and I can tell you exactly what they are, btw.

Edited November 3, 2015 by Aurbere

[Aurbere]

In addendum to my previous posts, it's important to note that the Coalition Strike Force was the only thing that could stop Revan. Marr made it very clear that even the combined Republic and Imperial army would not be able to stop Revan. So that's another point in Revan and the Coalition's favor, especially when you consider that both armies stationed on Yavin had a collection of Jedi Masters and Sith Lords. Edited November 3, 2015 by Aurbere

[tunewalker]

 

 

 

That makes very little sense. Luke's run-in with Palpatine is nothing like Revan's with Vitiate. Luke dropped his weapon and all bu surrendered. Revan actually fought Vitiate. So, no, they aren't even close to the same. And the logic that similar story elements means that the two characters must be the same power-level is horribly flawed as well.

 

 

 

 

Going to address this real quick. Luke Redirected some of Palpatine's lightning, even though he was unarmed, same as Revan vs Vitiate. Luke survived the lightning of a man who as we all know would be "infinitely more powerful then Nyriss" just like Revan Did. There are things that are different sure, but the gap in power between luke and Palpatine and Revan and Vitiate are around the same level. Circumstances were different, but relative power was not.

 

That's what you are missing, power is Relative. I dont deny the non-force users are good, but they are still non-force users, going up against a guy who's force powers alone puts them well out of their league, just like Vader does to people like that, or Exar Kun, or any one else of this caliber. Lana has shown that she is not a particularly powerful sith, struggling to open the Door in KotFE, which is likely why she was set up as a back line fighter, and if we want to talk game mechanics Satelle was using Battle Meditation to help the group out the whole time. So the fight he lost was a 1v1 fight with Marr, with several distractions caused by Lana, and all the rest of the Non-force sensitives in the back line (because relative to Marr and Revan, every one else there was just a distraction, any one less would have been LESS then a distraction), who didnt get insta gibbed thanks to Satele's battle Meditation. And again.. he lost, by what kind of margin we dont even know.

 

Further if we want to talk about Hyperbole of "Revan could not be defeated by the combined might of the Sith and Republic armies, only the coalition could do it" then I guess we can say Vader can not be beaten in head to head combat by anyone other then Luke or Sidious by the claims of Xizor, even numbers are meaningless against Vader according to Xizor, he could throw the entirety of millions or billions of black sun at Vader, and it would be as easy as swatting flies for Vader to defeat.

 

 

Edit: Point is everything is relative, and that phrase has yet to be understood. The logic that is currently being used is the same logic that is often used to say Luke is one of the weakest jedi of all time in RotJ. Watching flashy graphics that are relative to the medium they are being shown in, and the time in which they were created, with out respect for each characters role or relative position to the other characters within their own time line, story or medium, let alone what that means for their relative strength for time line or medium crossing.

Edited November 3, 2015 by tunewalker

[Rhyltran]

Fair point, fair point. I still feel Palpatine is an invaluable measuring stick though, at least in some respects.

 

EDIT: Altogether what are are thoughts overall? Are we at least in agreement that DE Palpatine > Valky?

 

And what of Plagueis? Personally I think the parity he establishes here with Palpatine proves he is superior at least in terms of Alter. And I think a few other points can be made in terms of Control and Sense.

 

Yes to the bold.

[Aurbere]

Going to address this real quick. Luke Redirected some of Palpatine's lightning, even though he was unarmed, same as Revan vs Vitiate. Luke survived the lightning of a man who as we all know would be "infinitely more powerful then Nyriss" just like Revan Did. There are things that are different sure, but the gap in power between luke and Palpatine and Revan and Vitiate are around the same level. Circumstances were different, but relative power was not.

 

Yeah, and Palpatine's lightning did very little to Luke aside from some long term effect, but nothing in the moment. Vitiate unleashed his full power against Revan. Palpatine did not.

 

And, again, the feats are still not indicative of parity between the two, especially since Revan is clearly more powerful in several other areas. Using the scene's similarities to suggest parity is faulty logic. The AOTC duel between Dooku and Anakin and the ESB duel between Vader and Luke possess similarities. Would you say Vader = Dooku and Luke = Anakin? I wouldn't.

 

That's what you are missing, power is Relative. I dont deny the non-force users are good, but they are still non-force users, going up against a guy who's force powers alone puts them well out of their league, just like Vader does to people like that, or Exar Kun, or any one else of this caliber. Lana has shown that she is not a particularly powerful sith, struggling to open the Door in KotFE, which is likely why she was set up as a back line fighter, and if we want to talk game mechanics Satelle was using Battle Meditation to help the group out the whole time. So the fight he lost was a 1v1 fight with Marr, with several distractions caused by Lana, and all the rest of the Non-force sensitives in the back line (because relative to Marr and Revan, every one else there was just a distraction, any one less would have been LESS then a distraction), who didnt get insta gibbed thanks to Satele's battle Meditation. And again.. he lost, by what kind of margin we dont even know.

 

Oh yeah. Battle Meditation. How could I forget. Makes the feat more impressive for Revan, doesn't it?

 

Anyway, I highly doubt these battlefield veterans are going to just sit back and watch Marr duel Revan. This isn't Dragon Ball Z. They are going to fight. Revan's not just fighting Marr (and that protag you forgot about). He's fighting an elite team of the galaxy's greatest warriors. Blaster bolts, explosives, Force Lightning, etc are all going to come his way. And each of these warriors are experienced in fighting Force users.

 

Regardless, that does not diminish the feats he has displayed, particularly against Marr and Shan. So you have no real point here, to be honest.

 

Further if we want to talk about Hyperbole of "Revan could not be defeated by the combined might of the Sith and Republic armies, only the coalition could do it" then I guess we can say Vader can not be beaten in head to head combat by anyone other then Luke or Sidious by the claims of Xizor, even numbers are meaningless against Vader according to Xizor, he could throw the entirety of millions or billions of black sun at Vader, and it would be as easy as swatting flies for Vader to defeat.

 

Yeah... I'm gonna take the Force Senses and tactical ingenuity of a Sith Lord of Marr's repute over Xizor's, lol. I highly doubt Xizor can accurately grasp Vader's power. No doubt his assessment is based on Vader's reputation (which Palpatine augmented using propaganda, btw).

 

It's a pretty simple fact that an assessment from a Force user is more reliable than a non-Force user because of their senses.

 

Edit: Point is everything is relative, and that phrase has yet to be understood. The logic that is currently being used is the same logic that is often used to say Luke is one of the weakest jedi of all time in RotJ. Watching flashy graphics that are relative to the medium they are being shown in, and the time in which they were created, with out respect for each characters role or relative position to the other characters within their own time line, story or medium, let alone what that means for their relative strength for time line or medium crossing.

 

Hmm. Interesting. So Marka Ragnos, Darth Revan, Darth Malak, Naga Sadow, Darth Krayt, etc are all on par with Palpatine based on their role and relative position in their eras? I mean, they were all the head Sith Lords of their time just as Palpatine was, and you made the comparison with Vitiate already, so what's up with that? Or perhaps Satele is Yoda-level?

 

How about instead of saying ^that, we address them by feats and hype instead? Seems much more reliable, imo.

[Beniboybling]

So would anyone like to provide an argument for Valkorion? In general or in terms of any specific character.

[Aurbere]

So would anyone like to provide an argument for Valkorion? In general or in terms of any specific character.

 

If that is necessary. I guess I could make something.

[tunewalker]

 

 

 

Hmm. Interesting. So Marka Ragnos, Darth Revan, Darth Malak, Naga Sadow, Darth Krayt, etc are all on par with Palpatine based on their role and relative position in their eras? I mean, they were all the head Sith Lords of their time just as Palpatine was, and you made the comparison with Vitiate already, so what's up with that? Or perhaps Satele is Yoda-level?

 

How about instead of saying ^that, we address them by feats and hype instead? Seems much more reliable, imo.

 

Thanks for causing me to hit myself hard enough to cause a minor concussion from the face palm......

 

rel·a·tive

ˈrelədiv/

adjective

1.

considered in relation or in proportion to something else.

 

Darth Krayt is "The Emperor" RELATIVE to his peers. Undestand the definition of RELATIVE, and how RELATIVITY means with these things. Because Relative is so hard for people to understand we are going to take every one to class real quick.

 

 

 

How to use Relativity to find character strengths in a top 10 scenario 101.

 

Step 1 find the biggest bad in that particular time line/ Medium

Step 2 Establish The Difference between big bad of one time to big bad of the other time at this point you will see the 2 individual era's top outs.

Step 3 Figure out where lesser individuals fall within that time line and story adjusting for any deviations caused by them being closer or farther from their big bad, in this case no deviation between Revan and RotJ Luke is neccisary as their displayed force powers against their big bad is similar.

Step 4 line that **** up and be done with it.

 

 

In other words just because some one is the "sidious" of their time line does not make them = to Sidious, but that does make the "Vader" of that particular time line 80% of the Sidious of the time line.... Or the RotJ Luke of that time line relative to the Sidious of that time line having an equal gap in strength (not equal strength equal gaps, that's the definition of relative people these gaps have been obsereved in every time line, which is why its so easy to use relativity and story to determine where people land.) unless there is SERIOUS reason to believe other wise.

 

Please dont ever use such a stupid argument again, your better then this.

 

 

 

Edit: Shown example using numbers

 

 

 

If

 

Sidious= 100%

Vader= 80%

 

If Exar Kun Relative to Sidious is 85% and Qel Droma is the "vader" of his time line, then Qel Droma is 80% of Exar Kun or 67% of Sidious... everything is Relative.

Edited November 3, 2015 by tunewalker

[Royox]

So would anyone like to provide an argument for Valkorion? In general or in terms of any specific character.

 

He eats planets. He can eat the whole galaxy.

[MarcheseAMM]

/thread

[tunewalker]

Yeah, and Palpatine's lightning did very little to Luke aside from some long term effect, but nothing in the moment. Vitiate unleashed his full power against Revan. Palpatine did not.

 

And, again, the feats are still not indicative of parity between the two, especially since Revan is clearly more powerful in several other areas. Using the scene's similarities to suggest parity is faulty logic. The AOTC duel between Dooku and Anakin and the ESB duel between Vader and Luke possess similarities. Would you say Vader = Dooku and Luke = Anakin? I wouldn't.

 

 

 

There is nothing to suggest Sidious was not full power against Luke. And the highlighted part shows your lack of understanding for the meaning of the word Relative. If I go through it every one of your arguments fails to understand the meaning of the word Relative.

 

ESB Luke : ESB Vader as AoTC Anakin : AoTC Dooku, now some leeway is made here since Luke actually preformed better then Anakin did. If Vader> Dooku, then Luke > Anakin. Relative... Relative, Relative, they do not say equal they say equal by comparison to their opponent which is why the placement of the opponent is important to know.

 

 

Revan's displays and story placement has it to the point of

 

Revan: Vitiate as RotJ Luke : RotJ Sidious. If Sidious is > then Vitiate, then by definition RotJ Luke > Revan.

Edited November 3, 2015 by tunewalker

[Aurbere]

Thanks for causing me to hit myself hard enough to cause a minor concussion from the face palm......

 

rel·a·tive

ˈrelədiv/

adjective

1.

considered in relation or in proportion to something else.

 

Darth Krayt is "The Emperor" RELATIVE to his peers. Undestand the definition of RELATIVE, and how RELATIVITY means with these things. Because Relative is so hard for people to understand we are going to take every one to class real quick.

 

 

 

How to use Relativity to find character strengths in a top 10 scenario 101.

 

Step 1 find the biggest bad in that particular time line/ Medium

Step 2 Establish The Difference between big bad of one time to big bad of the other time at this point you will see the 2 individual era's top outs.

Step 3 Figure out where lesser individuals fall within that time line and story adjusting for any deviations caused by them being closer or farther from their big bad, in this case no deviation between Revan and RotJ Luke is neccisary as their displayed force powers against their big bad is similar.

Step 4 line that **** up and be done with it.

 

 

In other words just because some one is the "sidious" of their time line does not make them = to Sidious, but that does make the "Vader" of that particular time line 80% of the Sidious of the time line.... Or the RotJ Luke of that time line relative to the Sidious of that time line having an equal gap in strength (not equal strength equal gaps, that's the definition of relative people) unless there is SERIOUS reason to believe other wise.

 

Please dont ever use such a stupid argument again, your better then this.

 

Yeah... your logic makes utterly no sense. I really don't care if you think power is relative, because it's not. Your argument has no grounds and is based purely on your idea of what Star Wars power levels are, and has absolutely no basis in lore.

 

But this is what you're saying: You're saying that because Revan and Luke defended themselves against their respective Sidious' Force Lightning, then they must be equal. Here, I'll provide your words:

 

Vitiate/ Valkorien is the "Emperor" of his time, the "Sidious" of his time if you will, and the way Revan faced him was as the RotJ Luke of his time, the power the 2 showed were relative to one another RotJ Sidious is to RotJ Luke as Vitiate is to Revan, even if we assume Revan got stronger, I still dont see it being anything beyond being the RotJ Luke of Valkorien, and if Valkorien is < Sidious, then by that extention Revan < RotJ Vader.

 

Your argument has absolutely no evidence behind it and is based purely on your false interpretation of how power in Star Wars works.

 

Edit: Shown example using numbers

 

 

 

If

 

Sidious= 100%

Vader= 80%

 

If Exar Kun Relative to Sidious is 85% and Qel Droma is the "vader" of his time line, then Qel Droma is 80% of Exar Kun or 67% of Sidious... everything is Relative.

 

Wow... So you're applying arbitrary power levels just because the situation compares to the relationship between Vader and Sidious? That's. Really. Dumb. Absolutely no ground in lore at all.

 

There is nothing to suggest Sidious was not full power against Luke.

 

But if it was Force-generated, it could be Force-repelled. Luke raised his arms to deflect the bolts. Initially, he was successful - the lightning rebounded from his touch, harmlessly into the walls. Soon, though, the shocks came with such speed and power, they coursed over and into him, and he could only shrink before them, convulsed with pain, his knees buckling, his powers at ebb.--ROTJ novel

 

Underlined the relevant part. You're wrong. On every level.

 

Edit: And here's more to that ROTJ novel:

 

On the Death Star, Luke was nearly unconscious beneath the continuing assault of the Emperor's lightning. Tormented beyond reason, betaken of a weakness that drained his very essence, he hoped for nothing more than to submit to the nothingness toward which he was drifting.

 

The Emperor smiled down at the enfeebled young Jedi, as Vader struggled to his feet beside his master.

 

'Young fool!' Palpatine rasped at Luke. 'Only now at the end, do you understand. Your puerile skills are no match for the power of the dark side. You have paid a price for your lack of vision. Now, young Skywalker, you will pay the price in full. You will die!'

 

He laughed maniacally; and although it would not have seemed possible to Luke, the outpouring of bolts from the Emperor's fingers actually increased in intensity. The sound screamed through the room, the murderous brightness of the flashes was overwhelming.

 

Luke's body slowed, wilted, finally crumpled under the hideous barrage. He stopped moving altogether. At last, he appeared totally lifeless. The Emperor hissed maliciously.

 

--ROTJ novel

 

So yeah. Lots of proof he didn't use his full power.

Edited November 3, 2015 by Aurbere

[tunewalker]

Yeah... your logic makes utterly no sense. I really don't care if you think power is relative, because it's not. Your argument has no grounds and is based purely on your idea of what Star Wars power levels are, and has absolutely no basis in lore.

 

But this is what you're saying: You're saying that because Revan and Luke defended themselves against their respective Sidious' Force Lightning, then they must be equal. Here, I'll provide your words:

 

 

No Didnt say equals, read relative, again fails to understand the meaning of the word Relative, when you are ready to understand the meaning of the words I am using then come back and have a conversation, but when you can not understand the very definition of the words being used you are not ready to have the conversation since you have yet to reach the level of comprehension neccisary to hold such a conversation

 

Your argument has absolutely no evidence behind it and is based purely on your false interpretation of how power in Star Wars works.

 

All fights and abilities are always relative, the word "Strong" is Relative. The Word "Fast" is relative. A turtle is FAST relative to a snail, so the Relativity of one fight to another is important to know. This is based on facts of life.

 

Wow... So you're applying arbitrary power levels just because the situation compares to the relationship between Vader and Sidious? That's. Really. Dumb. Absolutely no ground in lore at all.

 

Wow... got to love some one missing the point... that was an illustration IE an example IE the numbers meant nothing.... dont be this stupid please pull your head out of your rear and gain some reading comprehension.

 

But if it was Force-generated, it could be Force-repelled. Luke raised his arms to deflect the bolts. Initially, he was successful - the lightning rebounded from his touch, harmlessly into the walls. Soon, though, the shocks came with such speed and power, they coursed over and into him, and he could only shrink before them, convulsed with pain, his knees buckling, his powers at ebb.--ROTJ novel

 

Love it when you leave out other portions of the context, such as him facing Vader before hand, thus being tired AND leaving out the fact that the bolts were already hurting him so the fact that he was able to deflect it at all was amazing, since that has never been duplicated to my knowledge. The Ramp up means that now Sidious was at full strength, thus luke was surviving for a good long while against a fully amped Sidious, just like Revan did against Vitiate, they are still = displays of feats.

 

Underlined the relevant part. You're wrong. On every level.

 

pointed out all the lack of reading comprehension which is leading to your belief that my statements are false. If you had greater understanding and a greater ability to read between lines and understand both the argument that was being presented as well as the evidence you would be much more capable of bringing an ACTUAL argument here which in the above, has basically not been done. Basically you countered nothing, because you still havent understood the meaning of "everything is relative" which is a fact of life and a fact of words like "strong" or "fast" since we are measuring "Strength" relativity is 100% important as strength is always relative.

 

 

 

Example of Strength relativity:

 

Hercule is Strong Relative to a normal person

Hercule is Weak Relative to Goku.

 

If we are measuring "force power" then "power" is relative, by definition of Relative, and Power.

Edited November 4, 2015 by tunewalker

[Aurbere]

Oh I know what you mean. You're just completely wrong and have absolutely zero evidence to back up your assertion. Again, your claim has zero evidence for support and is based purely on your view of Star Wars lore. How do you expect me to respond to an argument with no evidence to support it and is based entirely on one's own flawed view of the mythos?

 

Maybe if you provided some evidence to prove your claim instead of saying "it's all relative" then maybe I'd say something more.

[Selenial]

This is the most retarded stuff I've read in a while. And I debate on KMC so that's an accomplishment and a half.

[Aurbere]

This is the most retarded stuff I've read in a while. And I debate on KMC so that's an accomplishment and a half.

 

I hope this means you're siding with me, lol

[tunewalker]

Oh I know what you mean. You're just completely wrong and have absolutely zero evidence to back up your assertion. Again, your claim has zero evidence for support and is based purely on your view of Star Wars lore. How do you expect me to respond to an argument with no evidence to support it and is based entirely on one's own flawed view of the mythos?

 

Maybe if you provided some evidence to prove your claim instead of saying "it's all relative" then maybe I'd say something more.

 

Your going to have to be specific as to the assertion you are talking about.

 

If you are saying strength is not Relative, I have already proved that Strength is Relative.

 

If you are saying RotJ Luke and Revan are not Comparable within their era's then that is easy to solve. This has 0 to do with my viewing of the Mythos this has to do with looking at a power ranking list that spans thousands of years where we are marking the relative strength from one character to another. In doing so the easiest way to assess one's abilities is to first assess them within their own era then line them up based on where they fell in that set up.

 

As Story wise, and Hype wise Revan has shown to be the "Luke and/or Vader" of his era we naturally treat him as such. Measuring power based on what looks flashiest is litterally the most inaccurate way to measure power in the force. As you said a Non-force sensitive, which every single one of us is, is unequiped to fully understand the force.

 

Measuring power by going "i think lifting this rock is greater then jumping that trench" or "blocking this lightning is better then blocking that lightning" or "this guys opinion is greater then that guys opinion" or "Sensing that thing is greater then punching that wall" any of those other arbitrary asinine reasons that everyone likes to pretend is some how an accurate measure of ability especially when the 2 abilties arent even comparable to one another (see rock vs jump) but its done any way (see Some people getting in because they have greater control vs others getting in because they have greater Alter so on and so forth). Yes we have to do that for the guys at the top of the list, but we do not need to do that for the people less then them. For the people less then them its much easier, just figure out where people sit relative to the people in their OWN era, then see what that means from there. We shouldnt NEED to do a Vader vs Revan Comparison, we should just be able to look at Revan vs his era, and Vader vs his era... figure out where they lie and then line the 2 era's up combining it into one. THAT is crossing era's, not this arbitrary list of made up x is stronger then y because we think so, but looking at what each character is and was relative to those around it, and what those around it were relative to their opponents.

 

Up until now we have either been dealing with the top guys or people from the same era, where stuff like this is neccisary but when crossing era's there is a more accurate way to do it. Crossing era's has all kinds of issues with it, solve the simple thing first, solve 1 era, then cross them using the relative strength. If we are arguing Revan> Vader because even though he is the "Luke/Vader" of his era he is closer to the "emperor" of his era thus his relative strength in comparison to his emperor is high then the relative strength of Vader and Luke to theirs and that relative strength is enough to put him over, that is fine, we can argue that, but dont sit their and pretend relative strength is non-existent or something that should not be understood. As my lesson said... Step 3 allows for some deviation, but it needs to be deviation for VERY good reasons.

 

Edit: basically I am saying I have all the evidence you want, but its A LOT of evidence, so you are going to need to be specific as to the evidence you are looking for.

 

 

Edit 2: Please also never claim to understand what some one means after having repeatedly proven other wise by rephrasing the persons words to mean something completely different then what they had intended or completely different then what they said... you basically did this

and then followed that up with "ya I totally get it" no...no you didnt, you have yet to demonstrate that you have, I had a similar conversation with my neighbors kid that I am tutoring about Frankenstein being the name of the doctor not the name of the monster, and them repeatedly saying, oh so that's why the villagers in the movie named the monster Frankenstein... just to have myself repeat that Frankenstein was the name of the doctor... not the monster. Edited November 4, 2015 by tunewalker

[cs_zoltan]

This is the most retarded stuff I've read in a while. And I debate on KMC so that's an accomplishment and a half.

 

Does that mean you actually read it? Wow.

[MarcheseAMM]

Hey Ant. You seem to have more time than me. Care to make a Valkorion > Yoda argument? I'm sure you can do a good one.

 

Aurbere said he plans on writing one tomorrow.

[Rhyltran]

Aurbere said he plans on writing one tomorrow.

 

Good. Gooood.

[Aurbere]

Okay, Tune. We're done. I'm pretty much tired of your argument (which continues to be wrong), so I'm moving on.

 

Edit: And, yes, I'll make a post on Yoda vs Valky tomorrow.

Edited November 4, 2015 by Aurbere