The REAL Most Powerful Force Users - Rebooted

[S_W_LeGenD]

@Aurbere

 

Those are some of the best arguments I have seen for Revan in a span of years.

 

Such intellect. So much research. Impressive.

 

So would anyone like to provide an argument for Valkorion? In general or in terms of any specific character.

I shall make a comprehensive comparison of Valkorion and Palpatine [might take a few days]. I can check important information about Palpatine in comicvine blogs but if you want me to consult sources of information about Palpatine [which you personally deem as really important] then let me know. I intend to make a fair comparison and cover all important points.

 

I am (particularly) interested in information about instances of failures of Palpatine because his merits are largely highlighted and failures are largely concealed. For example, did Palpatine failed to foresee something? I don't intend to gloss over stuff in the manner like Palpatine and Valkorion are so awesome, I will pay attention to the context of failures [of both characters] so that I can make a realistic assessment that doesn't gives the vibe of favoritism to any character.

 

I would also appreciate information about Palpatine's power progression with passage of time. I have some information in this regard but further input will be appreciated.

Edited November 4, 2015 by S_W_LeGenD

[that_Spartan_IV]

 

 

I shall make a comprehensive comparison of Valkorion and Palpatine

 

This ought to be good....

[Beniboybling]

He eats planets. He can eat the whole galaxy.

Well I'm convinced.

 

Anyway @Tune, I understand you're proposed method but I don't think it would be effective as you think it would be. Main problem being that within an era there are only a few characters we have been directly compared with one another and specifically with the "big bad" of the era. For example we don't know how Malgus stacks up to Vitiate

 

Which leads to the second problem, that a great deal of estimations and indeed guesswork it would inevitably lead to to fill those gaps. On a small scale this is manageable, but an entire system based on such estimations? It won't work.

 

Finally even in the case where characters have been directly compared, we are still making assumptions. Selenial made a good point about this concerning Yoda and Sidious i.e. Yoda may have matched Sidious in terms of telekinesis, tutanimis etc. but on that basis we can't assume him Palpatine's equal in all respects.

 

Direct comparison all in all, is the only way to ensure the most accurate results.

[cs_zoltan]

Yoda may have matched Sidious in terms of telekinesis, tutanimis etc. but on that basis we can't assume him Palpatine's equal in all respects.

Yoda also roughly matched Sidious in augmentation and precog (battle related), because of their apparent stalemate.

 

Yoda's Control feat analogous to Sidious blitzing Tiin and Kolar:

 

And he had given a demonstration. Three members of the council-Plo Koon, Saesee Tiin, and Depa Billaba, excellent fighters all-had come forward and attacked him. Master Yoda had not been armed, and had not seemed to move more than a meter or so, his tread slow and measured. Nevertheless, none of the three had been able to lay a finger on him. The lesson had struck powerfully home: Knowledge of the Force was infinitely better than technique.

—Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter

 

Yoda could even sense Sidious:

 

Yoda stretched out farther, immersing himself fully in the Force - - only to feel his breath catch in his throat. Frigid, the current became. Arctic. And for the first time he could feel Sidious. Feel him on Coruscant!

—Labyrinth of Evil

 

And that was when the jedi's senses were clouded:

 

“Masking the future is this disturbance in the Force,” Yoda replied. The diminutive Jedi seemed tired. Mace understood well the source of that weariness. “The prophecy is coming true. The dark side is growing.”

“And only those who have turned to the dark side can sense the possibilities of the future,” Yoda said. “Only by probing the dark side can we see."

 

“Do you think the Sith are behind this present disturbance?” Mace dared to ask.

“Out there, they are,” Yoda said with resignation. “A certainty that is.”

—Attack of the Clones novelization

 

War itself pours darkness into the Force, deepening the cloud that limits Jedi perception.

—Revenge of the Sith novelization

 

Lastly Yoda is Sidious' peer even by accolades:

 

Yoda's knowledge of the Force makes him just as powerful as Darth Sidious.

—Star Wars: Mysteries of the Jedi

 

I hope that's enough for those who think Yoda is "hiding" behind his duel with Sidious.

Edited November 4, 2015 by cs_zoltan

[PadsterPwns]

I hope that's enough for those who think Yoda is "hiding" behind his duel with Sidious.

 

I'd try to help and debate for Yoda (I genuinely don't get why this debate is happening smh) but there's three things preventing me:

 

1) I'd get roflstomped in a debate against most people here.

2) Preping for Conquest

3) Actually playing SWTOR, seriously I think I spend more time on the forums than in game.

 

Besides saying he's 'hiding' behind his duel with Sidious is ridiculous when you consider that he was post-prime and weakened yet still held his own. One of the best feats in the mythos that very few could replicate.

Edited November 4, 2015 by PadsterPwns

[Beniboybling]

Yoda also roughly matched Sidious in augmentation and precog (battle related), because of their apparent stalemate.

 

Yoda's Control feat analogous to Sidious blitzing Tiin and Kolar:

 

And he had given a demonstration. Three members of the council-Plo Koon, Saesee Tiin, and Depa Billaba, excellent fighters all-had come forward and attacked him. Master Yoda had not been armed, and had not seemed to move more than a meter or so, his tread slow and measured. Nevertheless, none of the three had been able to lay a finger on him. The lesson had struck powerfully home: Knowledge of the Force was infinitely better than technique.

—Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter

 

Yoda could even sense Sidious:

 

Yoda stretched out farther, immersing himself fully in the Force - - only to feel his breath catch in his throat. Frigid, the current became. Arctic. And for the first time he could feel Sidious. Feel him on Coruscant!

—Labyrinth of Evil

 

And that was when the jedi's senses were clouded:

 

“Masking the future is this disturbance in the Force,” Yoda replied. The diminutive Jedi seemed tired. Mace understood well the source of that weariness. “The prophecy is coming true. The dark side is growing.”

“And only those who have turned to the dark side can sense the possibilities of the future,” Yoda said. “Only by probing the dark side can we see."

 

“Do you think the Sith are behind this present disturbance?” Mace dared to ask.

“Out there, they are,” Yoda said with resignation. “A certainty that is.”

—Attack of the Clones novelization

 

War itself pours darkness into the Force, deepening the cloud that limits Jedi perception.

—Revenge of the Sith novelization

 

Lastly Yoda is Sidious' peer even by accolades:

 

Yoda's knowledge of the Force makes him just as powerful as Darth Sidious.

—Star Wars: Mysteries of the Jedi

 

I hope that's enough for those who think Yoda is "hiding" behind his duel with Sidious.

I agree really, and I could add more, and perhaps will. Edited November 4, 2015 by Beniboybling

[cs_zoltan]

I agree really, and I could add more, and perhaps will.

 

https://youtu.be/eYT3ctPuVRw?t=2m59s

[Selenial]

Yoda also roughly matched Sidious in augmentation and precog (battle related), because of their apparent stalemate.

 

Yoda's Control feat analogous to Sidious blitzing Tiin and Kolar:

 

And he had given a demonstration. Three members of the council-Plo Koon, Saesee Tiin, and Depa Billaba, excellent fighters all-had come forward and attacked him. Master Yoda had not been armed, and had not seemed to move more than a meter or so, his tread slow and measured. Nevertheless, none of the three had been able to lay a finger on him. The lesson had struck powerfully home: Knowledge of the Force was infinitely better than technique.

—Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter

 

Prove to me this was control, or blitzing. The passage literally says "his tread slow and measured." It seems far more like a telekinetic technique than anything, none of that passage whatsoever suggests he beat the **** out of them

 

Yoda could even sense Sidious:

 

Yoda stretched out farther, immersing himself fully in the Force - - only to feel his breath catch in his throat. Frigid, the current became. Arctic. And for the first time he could feel Sidious. Feel him on Coruscant!

—Labyrinth of Evil

 

And that was when the jedi's senses were clouded:

 

“Masking the future is this disturbance in the Force,” Yoda replied. The diminutive Jedi seemed tired. Mace understood well the source of that weariness. “The prophecy is coming true. The dark side is growing.”

“And only those who have turned to the dark side can sense the possibilities of the future,” Yoda said. “Only by probing the dark side can we see."

 

“Do you think the Sith are behind this present disturbance?” Mace dared to ask.

“Out there, they are,” Yoda said with resignation. “A certainty that is.”

—Attack of the Clones novelization

 

War itself pours darkness into the Force, deepening the cloud that limits Jedi perception.

—Revenge of the Sith novelization

Shame even with the force imbalance that these are nowhere near Sidious' sense feats. Real shame.

Lastly Yoda is Sidious' peer even by accolades:

 

Yoda's knowledge of the Force makes him just as powerful as Darth Sidious.

—Star Wars: Mysteries of the Jedi

 

Did you seriously just try and use an accolade that says Yoda could only compete because of a superior knowledge, to prove they have equal force reserves/power?

[Beniboybling]

Did you seriously just try and use an accolade that says Yoda could only compete because of a superior knowledge, to prove they have equal force reserves/power?

I think its fairly obvious that the statement is saying Yoda's knowledge in the Force granted him equal power to Darth Sidious. Powerful is a pretty unambiguous term in these contexts.

[Selenial]

I think its fairly obvious that the statement is saying Yoda's knowledge in the Force granted him equal power to Darth Sidious. Powerful is a pretty unambiguous term in these contexts.

 

I disagree profusely.

[Rhyltran]

I think its fairly obvious that the statement is saying Yoda's knowledge in the Force granted him equal power to Darth Sidious. Powerful is a pretty unambiguous term in these contexts.

 

Tell me if this sentence wouldn't be applicable.

 

"Sith Lord Anonymous is far more powerful than Jedi Knight Dude but due to Jedi's sheer skill and ferocity with a lightsaber he proves to be just as powerful as anonymous."

 

In this case power is being used as a form of describing how dangerous. Jedi Knight Dude in this example doesn't literally have as much power as Anonymous but he is able to match him. Many times certain quotes aren't just talking about raw power but overall capability and how it relates to each other. There are exceptions but in this case it's stating that Yoda's knowledge allows him to compete with Sidious.

 

You know what they say. Knowledge is power.

Edited November 4, 2015 by Rhyltran

[cs_zoltan]

Or you know, rather, it means what it says. Have you ever thought about that?

[Selenial]

It's upsetting me that Zoltan isn't answering my loaded question.

 

Anyway, to dispel that ridiculous rumor of Yoda's feat being a control feat, here's actual context (I know right).

 

Yoda had faced the assembled students and spoken, his thin reedy voice somehow carrying to the far corners of the lecture hall without benefit of amplifiers.

 

"Better than training, the Force is. More than experience or speed it gives."

 

And he had given a demonstration. Three members of the council-Plo Koon, Saesee Tiin, and Depa Bil-laba, excellent fighters all-had come forward and attacked him. Master Yoda had not been armed, and had not seemed to move more than a meter or so, his tread slow and measured. Nevertheless, none of the three had been able to lay a finger on him. The lesson had struck powerfully home: Knowledge of the Force was infinitely better than technique.

[Rhyltran]

Or you know, rather, it means what it says. Have you ever thought about that?

 

I agree. What it says is..

 

"Yoda's knowledge in the force makes him just as powerful."

 

It's literal meaning would be that his knowledge in the force allows him to be Sidious' equal. If it means just what it says then that is what it says.

[cs_zoltan]

Enjoy:

Prove to me this was control, or blitzing. The passage literally says "his tread slow and measured." It seems far more like a telekinetic technique than anything, none of that passage whatsoever suggests he beat the **** out of them

 

I take that. Plo Koon, Saesee Tiin, and Depa Billaba > Arcann. Which makes it better than Valky's feat.

 

Shame even with the force imbalance that these are nowhere near Sidious' sense feats. Real shame.

 

He sensed Sidious. You know the guy who could conceal himself from the whole jedi order...

 

Did you seriously just try and use an accolade that says Yoda could only compete because of a superior knowledge, to prove they have equal force reserves/power?

 

Try to explain your wait out of it. Go on. It says he is just as powerful as Sidious. Plain as daylight.

Edited November 4, 2015 by cs_zoltan

[Selenial]

I take that. Plo Koon, Saesee Tiin, and Depa Billaba > Arcann. Which makes it better than Valky's feat.

 

Please, tell me more about how pushing people back is in any way superior to destroying all life and hundreds of ships, along with a Force User on the levels of Vader.

 

He sensed Sidious. You know the guy who could concealed himself from the whole jedi order...

Sensed the fact Sidious existed, big whoop. He sensed nothing about Sidious, and even if he did, that would be Yoda's sense being greater than Sidious' ability to mask his presence. Sidious still has far greater sense feats.

 

Try to explain your wait out of it. Go on. It says he is just as powerful as Sidious. Plain as daylight.

 

Rhyltran already has.

[Beniboybling]

Tell me if this sentence wouldn't be applicable.

 

"Sith Lord Anonymous is far more powerful than Jedi Knight Dude but due to Jedi's sheer skill and ferocity with a lightsaber he proves to be just as powerful as anonymous."

 

In this case power is being used as a form of describing how dangerous. Jedi Knight Dude in this example doesn't literally have as much power as Anonymous but he is able to match him. Many times certain quotes aren't just talking about raw power but overall capability and how it relates to each other. There are exceptions but in this case it's stating that Yoda's knowledge allows him to compete with Sidious.

Except it says knowledge in the Force. Your point is moot.

 

If someone would like to explain what aspect of Yoda's knowledge, aside from the greater command of the Force it would have given, made him "as powerful" as Sidious, please provide, otherwise I will assume the obvious.

You know what they say. Knowledge is power.

"Yoda's knowledge of the Force makes him just as powerful as Darth Sidious."

 

Edited November 4, 2015 by Beniboybling

[cs_zoltan]

Please, tell me more about how pushing people back is in any way superior to destroying all life and hundreds of ships, along with a Force User on the levels of Vader.

 

Or you know, try to compare it to a similar feat

 

Like Valky stopping Arcann from cutting him down.

 

 

Sensed the fact Sidious existed, big whoop. He sensed nothing about Sidious, and even if he did, that would be Yoda's sense being greater than Sidious' ability to mask his presence. Sidious still has far greater sense feats.

 

“And only those who have turned to the dark side can sense the possibilities of the future,” Yoda said. “Only by probing the dark side can we see."

—Attack of the Clones novelization

 

Rhyltran already has.

 

Rather poorly tbh.

[Selenial]

Or you know, try to compare it to a similar feat

 

Like Valky stopping Arcann from cutting him down.

 

That is remotely similar, how exactly? I don't see how him effortlessly utilizing tutaminis to block a Lightsaber is the same thing.

 

 

“And only those who have turned to the dark side can sense the possibilities of the future,” Yoda said. “Only by probing the dark side can we see."

—Attack of the Clones novelization

 

What on earth is that supposed to prove?

[cs_zoltan]

Seriously?

[Beniboybling]

If we are going to discuss Yoda vs ROTS Sidious in earnest I would draw attention to some key aspects of their engagement, which I think can be used to surmise that Yoda was Sidious' superior in several respects.

 

First off however lets begin with accolades, ROTS Sidious has several times being regarded as the most powerful dark sider Sith lord in galactic history, Yoda's accolades however are arguably more impressive.

Despite his diminutive size and frailty, Yoda’s incomparable ability to summon the power of the Force enabled him to greatly enhance his agility and speed.

 

--Taken from Star Wars Fact Files

 

Yoda: Jedi Master, Grand Master, Master of the Order; Famous teacher; Perhaps the greatest Master of the Force ever.

 

--Taken from Star Wars: Absolutely Everything You Need To Know

So we've got two major sources that place Yoda potentially above Sidious.

 

It's also worth mentioning Yoda and Palpatine's dialogue:

Yoda: If so powerful you are... why leave?

 

Darth Sidious: You will not stop me! Darth Vader will become more powerful than either of us!

I'm not claiming anything concrete by it, merely make note how Palpatine does not contradict Yoda's claim that he is essentially not as powerful as Yoda, at the very least Palpatine himself doubts that fact.

 

But lets look at the engagement itself.

 

First of in terms of Control Yoda overwhelms Sidious twice in a contest of Force enhanced strength:

 

Here: http://share.gifyoutube.com/yDaoDx.gif

And here: http://share.gifyoutube.com/vWwWLA.gif

 

And we quite visibly see Palpatine's usual glee turn to frustrated rage.

 

The script (G-Canon/Legends Canon source) also supports the idea of Palpatine being driven back by Yoda's assault:

PALPATINE seeks refuge in the vast Senate Chamber. He gets into the Chancellor's Podium and it starts to rise up into the Arena.

 

--Taken from Revenge of the Sith script

The script also describes (where the duel cuts to Anakin vs Kenobi) that Yoda overpowered and disarmed Sidious:

YODA unleashes a ferocious assault on PALPATINE, causing him to almost go over the edge. The Dark Lord drops his lightsaber but recovers with a BLAST OF ENERGY from his hands that surrounds YODA. YODA is deflecting the Sith Lord's lightning bolts.

 

--Taken from Revenge of the Sith script

Now the argument can be made that this was the result of Yoda using a more ferocious and Force intensive form, while Palpatine may have been more reserved with his energies, but this doesn't fly for several reasons:

 

 

1. Palpatine's primary form is likely Juyo, an equally offensive and Force intensive form to Ataru.
    
    
   
2. Palpatine simply cannot afford not to go all out against such a deadly opponent, indeed I'd remind everyone that Palpatine attempts to flee before the duel begins. He is taking Yoda very seriously.
   

 

An argument can also be made that Yoda is the superior duelist, this is likely true and a valid point, but it still doesn't account for his ability to overpower Sidious in a contest of strength.

 

Moving on, let's discuss Yoda's displays of tutanimis, which he uses to deflect Palpatine's lightning twice, the first time is detailed in the script, which we should again presume happened during the cut to Anakin & Kenobi:

...with a BLAST OF ENERGY from his hands that surrounds YODA. YODA is deflecting the Sith Lord's lightning bolts. The energy bolts begin to arc back on the Emperor. It looks as if the Dark Lord is doomed.

 

--Taken from Revenge of the Sith script

Doomed is a pretty strong adjective, and pretty strongly indicates he was losing.

 

Yoda does this again on screen, and it appears to me that Palpatine is quite clearly losing, again:

 

http://share.gifyoutube.com/m6ZR3g.gif

http://share.gifyoutube.com/Kjrnbg.gif

 

Palps intially pushes him back, but Yoda finds his resolve and Palpatine is visibly overwhelmed, just as he was in the scripted scenes we did not see. The script itself, saying the following:

YODA blocks the lightning and throws PALPATINE backwards off the podium. YODA is knocked off the Podium and falls several hundred feet to the base of the Podium. PALPATINE follows in his pod, searching for YODA.

 

--Taken from Revenge of the Sith novelisation

Yes Yoda comes off worse, as many sourcebooks note upon, but the script makes it abundantly clear that it was Yoda who was winning, but lost the environmental advantage in the process.

 

The point here being that if Yoda is capable of deflecting Palpatine's lightning, it is unlikely Palpatine would be able to deflect lightning of a greater output that he himself can muster, which would be necessary to surpass Yoda in this category. On that basis, and considering Yoda's superior Force valor, I'd give Yoda the advantage in Control.

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

In terms of Alter, I believe its again worth referring to Yoda's tutanimis feat as a display and contest of raw power, one Yoda wins, indicating he'd have superior raw power to command Alter.

 

However it is perhaps more accurate to address their telekinetic contest, in which Sidious had the high ground:

 

https://j.gifs.com/yN4g8N.gif

 

This puts Yoda an unfair advantage, as he effectively has gravity working against him. And yet despite that he is able to stop one of Palpatine's pods in its tracks, once he pauses for an oppurtunity:

 

https://j.gifs.com/vQRxGq.gif

 

Yoda then spins the pod and sends it flying back at him, forcing Palpatine to abandon the high ground:

 

https://j.gifs.com/y4jDBW.gif

 

I think the fact that Palpatine abadons the high ground is quite telling, as it effectively demonstrates that Sidious was incapable of deflecting his projectile. Of course made more deadly by the fact it was spinning, but on the other hand it was fightning against gravity. I think there is potential for superiority here, or at least parity.

Edited November 4, 2015 by Beniboybling

[Selenial]

I frankly don't care about the control section, since I do believe Yoda surpasses ROTS Sidious in the realm of Valor as it is, lightsiders generally do, it's nothing surprising.

 

I find your alter section altogether immensely lacking, and frankly pretty biased. For example, you claim Yoda won their bout via his Tutaminis. I question how a huge explosion that sent him flying across the Senate Chamber was anything other than a stalemate, perhaps you could enlighten us. I also want to know how Yoda stopping a Senate Pod is in any way an indication he is a superior Telekinetic to Sidious. It's abundantly clear that Sidious was not holding the pod in a Force Grip, since he doesn't react negatively when it stops whatsoever, and doesn't show any sign of attempting to push through. He'd thrown a pod at Yoda, and Yoda caught it. How does this display superiority at all?

 

Also wondering why you're taking a fight Sidious has not long after almost dying as the most accurate display of them at their peak.

 

Finally, your comparison completely and utterly ignores sense. Not sure how you're supposed to compare two Force Users without an entire sphere of Force Ability....

[Aurbere]

Yeah, lol. Yoda throwing the pod back at Sidious isn't really a display of superiority, especially considering Sidious was throwing those pods like small stones earlier. And, yes, the lightning bout was a stalemate. The novel even indicates that Yoda was pushed to his absolute limit while nothing was said for Sidious.

[Rhyltran]

Except it says knowledge in the Force. Your point is moot.

 

 

 

I don't see how that makes my point moot. You realize there's plenty of people who are more knowledgeable in the force than Anakin but lack enough power that it doesn't matter? Knowledge of the force =/= raw power which is what this thread is about. It's literally about who is the strongest. Not who will win in a duel, who has more knowledge, etc. If Yoda has more force knowledge than Sidious but his power is close enough to be able to stand against him there is reason to assume that this might allow him to match him as an equal.

 

This is why I gave the bladesman example.

 

The problem here is I think people are a bit biased because it goes very against the grain of what we originally thought. That there are two dark side users above Yoda. I understand this but sometimes we have to take a step back and look at the facts.

Edited November 4, 2015 by Rhyltran

[Beniboybling]

I frankly don't care about the control section, since I do believe Yoda surpasses ROTS Sidious in the realm of Valor as it is, lightsiders generally do, it's nothing surprising.

Fair enough. I expect others do though.

I find your alter section altogether immensely lacking

Meh, didn't put much effort into it if I'm honest.

and frankly pretty biased.

For example, you claim Yoda won their bout via his Tutaminis. I question how a huge explosion that sent him flying across the Senate Chamber was anything other than a stalemate, perhaps you could enlighten us.

I believe I did that above, Yoda was unable to fully contain and deflect Palpatine's power - hence the explosion - but the sources I cited make it obvious that he nonetheless had the advantage.

I also want to know how Yoda stopping a Senate Pod is in any way an indication he is a superior Telekinetic to Sidious. It's abundantly clear that Sidious was not holding the pod in a Force Grip, since he doesn't react negatively when it stops whatsoever, and doesn't show any sign of attempting to push through. He'd thrown a pod at Yoda, and Yoda caught it. How does this display superiority at all?

It doesn't, nor is it the point. The point is that Yoda was able to counter Palpatine's TK, whereas Palpatine could not. The circumstances where somewhat different, which I acknowledge, but it at least establishes parity.

Also wondering why you're taking a fight Sidious has not long after almost dying as the most accurate display of them at their peak.

https://media.giphy.com/media/q3EFPmq2BdKxy/giphy.gif

 

You're going to have to elaborate...

Finally, your comparison completely and utterly ignores sense. Not sure how you're supposed to compare two Force Users without an entire sphere of Force Ability....

I'm addressing the implications of the fight, not comparing them as a whole.

 

I thought that was pretty obvious.

And, yes, the lightning bout was a stalemate.

Is nobody actually going to address the evidence to the contrary?

The novel even indicates that Yoda was pushed to his absolute limit while nothing was said for Sidious.

The novel describes that particular scene a. differently, b. from Yoda's point of view and c. is an inferior source to the script. However the fact that Sidious was barely able to cling to a senate pod strongly indicates he was pooped. Edited November 4, 2015 by Beniboybling