The REAL Most Powerful Force Users - Rebooted

[cs_zoltan]

Rather than simply list Revan’s feats, which we all know, I’ll follow standard argument model and show why exactly Revan is more powerful than his peers in the selection. To do so, I’ll be taking things category-by-category (using information presented in Beni’s comparison) and using standard comparison methods. For those who thought this would never get posted, behold and acknowledge your folly.

 

tl;dr

[Selenial]

It was wise to attempt to supplant Krayt in that post. I'll allow it

[Rhyltran]

Interesting, never thought about it in this way.

 

I fully appreciate the fact that you do not dismiss revelations on the grounds of them challenging your perceptions, you find a way to accommodate them with rationalization. And this is important.

 

If we start dismissing official revelations then we aren't going to be objective in debates. We will be picking and choosing among revelations to promote our personal agendas which isn't sound.

 

Point is that Valkorion [can] negatively affect and/or ruin the Light Side alignment and/or attunement to the Force of even the strongest Jedi [insert rationalization about hows here]. We can safely assume that we are not aware of the full extent of Valkorion's capabilities since he spent centuries honing his talents in the Dark Side and he is [explicitly] stated to have explored the most sinister and uncharted depths of the Dark Side in the process.

 

I even provided examples in which it is clear that Valkorion doesn't necessarily goes all-out in the use of his telepathic powers. He is often careful in using them since he have history of destroying the minds of some Jedi with his telepathic powers.

 

Absolutely. I fully agree here which is why I find Valkorion closer to Sidious than people think. While I don't think Valkorion = DE Sidious I do believe he's up above Yoda and earlier incarnations of Sidious. There's many points in which they are comparable. Something I didn't believe until KOTFE. While I disagree with many things you say I do agree that Valkorion is stronger than many people here realize.

[S_W_LeGenD]

Absolutely. I fully agree here which is why I find Valkorion closer to Sidious than people think. While I don't think Valkorion = DE Sidious I do believe he's up above Yoda and earlier incarnations of Sidious. There's many points in which they are comparable. Something I didn't believe until KOTFE. While I disagree with many things you say I do agree that Valkorion is stronger than many people here realize.

Thank you

 

I believe that Valkorion is not getting a fair representation in this thread. Reason is that his feats [in disembodied form] are being largely ignored on the grounds of a theory that he is a manifestation of cosmic force in this form. If a Force-user can become a world-buster as a Force ghost and/or disembodied form, then what stopped Yoda from destroying the Death Star by himself after becoming one?

 

To be honest, Valkorion's top showings are [in his disembodied form] because he is not constrained in this form by a vessel's natural limitations and they are superior to anything Palpatine have demonstrated. Valkorion's actions in disembodied form are representative of his true power [Cosmic Force theory just doesn't fly], Otherwise, every Force ghost would become a world-buster or worse.

 

In plain words:

 

 

Taken from (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Rise of the Emperor)

 

Unleashed from his sanctuary on Yavin 4, the former Sith Emperor has now struck the Imperial world of Ziost. Using his immense power in the dark side of the Force, he has dominated the minds of the planet’s Imperial troops--as well as an elite cadre of militaristic Jedi--and has set them against the populace, engaging in a bloody slaughter.

 

 

I mean, how explicit can BioWare be?

 

But hardly anybody is willing to challenge views of Beniboybling in this community because most cannot fathom a TOR era character being stronger then their favorites in later eras. It is blasphemy.

 

Besides, some feats of Valkorion have been demonstrated by Dread Masters and Darth Caedus in mortal form. Another indication that Beniboybling is jumping to conclusions.

Edited November 3, 2015 by S_W_LeGenD

[Beniboybling]

Rather than simply list Revan’s feats, which we all know, I’ll follow standard argument model and show why exactly Revan is more powerful than his peers in the selection. To do so, I’ll be taking things category-by-category (using information presented in Beni’s comparison) and using standard comparison methods. For those who thought this would never get posted, behold and acknowledge your folly.

I told you to wait Aurb.

 

Anyway looks interesting, I'll give it a read once we are finished with Valkorion.

I'm not alone here. I'm not going to get huffy about it or insult anyone but many on KMC agree as well that Valkorion > ROTS Sidious. In fact cases are made for Valkorion > ROTJ Sidious.

No offense Rhyltran, but saying "tl;dr, I'm right you're wrong, everyone agrees with me Valky for #3" is a bit huffy and puffy, and isn't exactly the most convincing argument, nor the kind we encourage.

 

Zoltan is correct, that is not how the rules work. But more importantly nobody is getting placed anywhere without proper discussion and comparison being made first, as Zoltan says, this is not a popularity contest.

 

If you want to dispute my stance, provide an argument, at least for your own case, not logical fallacies and general red herrings. Now with that in my mind I'd like to get back to what's important.

And more sources say Yoda lost than stalemated, actually, especially recent ones under Disney canon.

Multiple sources state Yoda lost the engagement as a whole, which is obviously the case, I've yet to see a source that describes him as being beaten by Palpatine's lightning.

 

Instead the movies, TCW and the script all depict Yoda (practically) overpowering Palpatine but losing the environmental advantage as a result. I plan to take those primary sources over secondary interpretations.

While Yoda is post prime I've always subscribed to the belief that it wasn't a stalemate. I'm not going to get into a massive debate over it but the most commonly used argument for Yoda stalemating Sidious is that his hands were too small to hold onto the podium so he fell and took more damage. Here's my problem with this argument. Given that the force can enhance a user's strength it shouldn't be possible Yoda would slip unless he was spent. Furthermore while he fell from a great height so did Darth Maul.

 

In fact Darth Maul fell even further, while cut in half, and managed to survive. Arcann also failed to contain his father's lightning being channeled through the outlander and fell from a height so far you couldn't even see the ground. Yoda clearly had nothing left as he couldn't protect himself from the fall or even manage to hold himself up. As he left Sidious wanted him found and was fully ready to continue the fight. This means that Sidious wasn't spent. So I'd argue Yoda wasn't equal to ROTS Sidious. In the novel, from Yoda's point of view, he never stood a chance.

 

People interpret that as metaphorically. I have personally always believed his revelation was both metaphor as well as literal. Yoda knew he couldn't beat Sidious.

Interesting points, however though I agree that Yoda's inability to hold on demonstrates he was exhausted, I think its an assumption to conclude that Palpatine was not spent as well.

 

First off Palpatine doesn't exactly do much better:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DI8kkR9G0Q&t=3m51s

 

At 3:58 and 4:10 we see Palpatine barely holding on the platform, heck we even have his victory cackle interrupted by a cry of distress as he almost loses his grip. How could Palpatine be "fully ready" to continue the fight if he can't even leap back up onto the platform, or fly up for that matter? It's obvious he was as pooped as Yoda.

 

Yes he managed to hold on, but then he didn't fall several dozen meters, hitting the podium on the way down, and yes he also has tiny hands, Yoda was in a worse off position to Palpatine, who barely managed to hold on, so he fell.

 

But again, both should have been capable of easily recovering, both failed to do so.

As for the case Beni made? It wasn't ROTS Sidious. He combined ROTS/ROTJ Sidious as if they were the same and used post ROTS feats in order to support his accusation

Not really, I used predominately ROTS feats to support my argument, not that any source makes a notable difference between the two incarnations, however I acknowledge you're concerns to to address the ROTJ feats:

 

Sidious survived the bodiless void by rending space and time to reach his clone bodies.

 

The source states that Sidious learned this ability "years earlier" not decades, so I concede ROTS Sidious wouldn't be capable of this, however I would question that he would not be able to survive corporeal death.

 

Regardless this was secondary to the main argument that Valkorion's Control feats aren't proof of superiority.

 

Sidious has been confirmed to be significantly superior to Marek as a Force user

 

It's self evidence that the same can be said of ROTS Palpatine.

 

Sidious claimed to be capable of destroying his Imperial Palace with a thought.

 

A ROTJ feat but again secondary to the main thrust of the argument, that Valkorion's feat is pre-prime Marek level at best, and both ROTS and ROTJ Palpatine are significantly more powerful than this individual.

 

Sidious learned to conjure and partially control Force storms

 

Not an ability ROTS Palpatine possessed, but it so thoroughly eclipses what Valkorion achieved in comparison, that I sincerely doubt ROTS Palpatine couldn't conjure a storm of similar magnitude. Feel free to prove otherwise.

 

And that's it, altogether I think if you remove ROTJ Palpatine from the equation it doesn't alter my conclusion, if anything its more dependent on his ROTS feats e.g. killing Windu, disarming Yoda etc. etc.

Not only that but he claimed he was only able to floor Arcann with his lightning because Arcann let his guard down. Except he didn't. Arcann made the same motions and stumbled backwards after each strike the same way each time so Valkorion could have "Caught him off guard" any time he chose.

I respect your decision to disagree with my conclusion, but this is just inaccurate. Look at the scene again:

 

 

From 20:33 to 20:50 Arcann makes as you say the same motions and stumbles backwards after each strike in the same way i.e. a two-handed chop with his blade across his body/face. But not here.

 

Here Arcann lets go with his right hand the lightsaber drops to his side - leaving him wide open to an attack and the likelihood of him raising his blade in time being slim. It is only at that moment Valkorion strikes.

 

The rest of the time as you say, Arcann had the lightsaber close to his chest, more than able to intercept an attack.

Valkorion was never nervous. He was never concerned. He wasn't waiting for Arcann to lower his guard. He talked to him like he was amused. Amused that Arcann honestly thought he could win. He held him back with one hand like an adult would do a child. Arcann had his saber close to his chest and he was certainly quick enough to deflect the lightning if that was at all possible for him.

I don't deny that, clearly Valkorion was capable of soundly defeating Arcann, but that doesn't mean Arcann was incapable of offering any kind of defense. All this indicates is Valkorion wished to avoid a prolonged engagement in which he was forced to power through Arcann's defenses.

Except it wasn't and while Windu was going to lose his struggle with Sidious lightning? The fact is he was able to struggle against it. The same couldn't be said for Arcann.

A moot point considering the superior Yoda failed in this respect, obviously Vaapad used to the greatest degree presents much more of an advantage you are willing to acknowledge. Not that Sidious was necessarily going all out.

You realized that Beni also neglected the ziost feats which should be added on top of everything he's done here, right? You know the biggest game changer? Before we discounted the ziost feats because it was done "As a spirit." and that's not included in the rules of the discussion. You know what we learned with KOTFE? He had Valkorion as a body for centuries. This means he wasn't a spirit when he consumed Ziost of life and mind controlled the entire population. He was directing his will from Zakuul.

As Zoltan said, I addressed that months ago. Seeing as you're a regular on KMC, I'm surprised you missed it:

 

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=15194084#post15194084

 

In so far nobody has offered a sound critique, I'd be interested to hear your thoughts. I disagree though that Valkorion was not in spirit form, he must have been at least partially to manifest on Ziost and Yavin 4.

I also want to address this. KMC does a lot of comparisons between characters and not everyone just uses hype. You also use "we" as if I'm not part of that "we" despite being one of the most frequent members in this thread. I've been debating in Star Wars Discussion since before the game officially launched. I've been here for a long time. In fact I ended up joining KMC around 2011. So I've been here longer than there. I was merely pointing out that it's not some outrageous opinion.

Reveal your identity to me.

[Beniboybling]

I've got Valkorion around ROTJ Sidious level, personally.

 

I question why the **** it's relevant. To suggest that Valkorion < ROTS Sidious therefore he's below Yoda is ludicrous. If you're going to opt for a feat based thread then you should stick to that, instead of letting Yoda hide behind the fact he's often considered a peer of Sidious as of ROTS. A comparison against Sidious is irrelevant if we don't place Valkorion above DE Sidious since we're taking his strongest incarnation for this list.

 

I suggest doing a comparison of Yoda and Valkorion in greater depth, and then addressing the motion that Yoda wasn't in his prime. Personally I used to entertain that notion, but I've been having second thoughts.

I would disagree personally, problem with comparing Valk and Yoda, and Jedi & Sith in general is that they have, especially at this level, very few analogous powers. For example we have nothing to compare Valkorion's Force lightning, planetary drain feats and immortality with in Yoda, who just hasn't explored these powers. But considering Yoda has engaged in a direct contest of strength with Palpatine, we have an effective measuring stick.

 

I think if we establish exactly how powerful Yoda is in comparison to Sidious, we can use ROTS Sidious as a proxy to compare him to Valkorion.

 

P.S. Me and Aurbere had a discussion about Prime Yoda, and we decided it was probably best to judge ROTS Yoda seeing as Prime Yoda's capabilities are for the most part totally speculative.

Edited November 3, 2015 by Beniboybling

[PadsterPwns]

I would disagree personally, problem with comparing Valk and Yoda, and Jedi & Sith in general is that they have, especially at this level, very few analogous powers. For example we have nothing to compare Valkorion's Force lightning, planetary drain feats and immortality with in Yoda, who just hasn't explored these powers. But considering Yoda has engaged in a direct contest of strength with Palpatine, we have an effective measuring stick.

 

P.S. Me and Aurbere had a discussion about Prime Yoda, and we decided it was probably best to judge ROTS Yoda seeing as Prime Yoda's capabilities are for the most part totally speculative.

 

I agree but do remember that RotS Yoda was also weakened via Palpatine's clouding of the Force. Just something to consider.

Edited November 3, 2015 by PadsterPwns

[Beniboybling]

To be honest, Valkorion's top showings are [in his disembodied form] because he is not constrained in this form by a vessel's natural limitations and they are superior to anything Palpatine have demonstrated. Valkorion's actions in disembodied form are representative of his true power [Cosmic Force theory just doesn't fly], Otherwise, every Force ghost would become a world-buster or worse.

Right, which is the primary reason why we are not making a comparison with individuals who are constrained by bodily form, because they are at an inherent disadvantage. Force entities are not being considered for this list, end of story.

 

As for the rest, it's pretty obvious you don't understand my "theories" at all, hopefully others show greater insight. And if you are going to criticise them, be specific and provide context, rather than these generalised accusations.

 

And altogether try to comprehend your opponents argument before critiquing it. Though its ironic that you pretty much admit its validity in the same paragraph, supposed that demonstrates the extent to which you missed the point.

 

P.S. However at this stage I fully acknowledge that Valkorion possesses world-consuming power, though it remains questionable whether he is capable of channeling such power through his bodily form without ritual assistance. Not that that detracts from his ability to do it, only the time it would take. So that's another baseless accusation from you.

Edited November 3, 2015 by Beniboybling

[Rhyltran]

Right, which is the primary reason why we are not making a comparison with individuals who are constrained by bodily form, because they are at an inherent disadvantage. Force entities are not being considered for this list, end of story.

 

As for the rest, it's pretty obvious you don't understand my "theories" at all, hopefully others show greater insight. And if you are going to criticise them, be specific and provide context, rather than these generalised accusations.

 

And altogether try to comprehend your opponents argument before critiquing it. Though its ironic that you pretty much admit its validity in the same paragraph, supposed that demonstrates the extent to which you missed the point.

 

P.S. However at this stage I fully acknowledge that Valkorion possesses world-consuming power, though it remains questionable whether he is capable of channeling such power through his bodily form without ritual assistance. Not that that detracts from his ability to do it, only the time it would take. So that's another baseless accusation from you.

 

You do realize that his mind control feats on Ziost was not in a disembodied form because that would imply that he's leaving his "Valkorion" body behind which there's no indication of him doing. It's more likely that he's extending his will and influence to Ziost rather than appearing via spirit. It's an assumption we made when we assumed he had no body. Valkorion has been a body of his for centuries and I don't think the body would survive without a host spirit. Even if it did Arcann is always at his father's side and if he saw such weakness he'd have killed him. We know this because the moment he was supposed to kill the Outlander he saw it as an opportunity to team up against his own father.

 

There's not enough evidence anymore to assert that he was a spirit when he mind controlled the people on Ziost. In fact it seems like Valkorion is not a voice but a real body. At some point he probably essence transferred into "Valkorion." or it's even possible at this point that the story we got was an embellished story and didn't happen as depicted (implying he might have been Valkorion all along.) The voice has an echo to it which is something Valkorion doesn't have. He was probably controlling his voice and Valkorion at the same time but he couldn't have two voices at once due to the strain it would require to have that many bodies and controlling them simultaneously.

 

Senya states that there were times "valkorion" seemed distracted, grew cold, and distant. This is probably multi-tasking two bodies. In real life when people multi-task they seem distracted, distant, etc because doing more than one thing at once is difficult.

 

As for who I am on KMC? That is irrelevant to this discussion. I'd rather keep that a secret as I told Ant when he tried to find out. As for your post? I saw that on KMC as well and furthermore I never said "TLDR" if anything it's more "TLCR" or "To Long Can't Respond."

Edited November 3, 2015 by Rhyltran

[Aurbere]

tl;dr

 

TL;DR Revan oneshots your fave.

[cs_zoltan]

TL;DR Revan oneshots your fave.

 

It's not that hard to oneshot Kenobi

[Aurbere]

It's not that hard to oneshot Kenobi

 

True. But that was more a general statement to everyone. He oneshots Traya, Luminara, Meetra, ROTJ Luke (), etc etc

[PadsterPwns]

True. But that was more a general statement to everyone. He oneshots Traya, Luminara, Meetra, ROTJ Luke (), etc etc

 

As with every rule there is an exception: Kit Fisto.

[Jarons]

TL;DR Revan oneshots your fave.

Cade Skywalker oneshots you whole top 10.

Edited November 3, 2015 by Jarons

[Beniboybling]

I don't think there is much evidence to assert anything at all, however there are many problems with you're theory. Really the whole idea of Valkorion just projecting himself from Zakuul is completely irreconcilable with what happened.

 

1. We are told by the Hands that Vitiate has been dealt a mortal blow by the Knight, and is now recovering in slumber. This is affirmed by his silence, and by the babbling voices the Children here in their heads.

 

2. Vitiate's presence appears on Yavin 4 where he is stated to be regaining his lost power, and indeed he puts several complex plans into action to ensure his return i.e. manipulating Revan into reviving him.

 

3. We actually see Vitiate's presence leave Yavin 4, and it is physically felt by those on the planet.

 

4. It's simply implausible to assume that Valkorion would be powerful enough to project his presence all the way from Zakuul and be capable of planetary mind control and drain, and nowhere is this indicated. Nor if this were the case would multiple individuals be able to track Vitiates presence down to this planet, and sense it.

 

Now what we do now is that Valkorion existed in bodily form at this time, noting that when Senya refers to him as distant (which is when his children are young) is likely around the time of the Great Galactic War, not the Cold War.

 

We also know that according to Vaylin's codex entry:

 

"When most of the Emperor's power was locked away on Yavin 4, he was no longer able to hide Vaylin's strength from her, and she finally got a taste of her full capabilities."

 

Which is interesting in itself, as it confirms that a portion of the Emperor's spirit was indeed present on Yavin 4. My thoughts based on the above is that the Vitiate voice possessed the vast majority of Valkorion's essence as of the end of the Cold War, when he planned to perform his ritual (which I assume would have required all his power) when this plan was stopped and that voice destroyed, it put him into a state of shock.

 

That portion of his essence, which for whatever reason seemed unable to return to Zakuul, was collected by his Hands (as their messages to the Wrath confirm) and taken to Yavin 4 to be restored. Once partially restored that portion of his essence then left Yavin 4 and procceeded to consume Ziost to restore his power completely. He was then presumably powerful enough to retreat to Zakuul and rejoin with his remaining essence.

 

If this is the case however, Valkorion/Vitiate was present in spirit form on Ziost and Yavin 4.

[Rhyltran]

I don't think there is much evidence to assert anything at all, however there are many problems with you're theory. Really the whole idea of Valkorion just projecting himself from Zakuul is completely irreconcilable with what happened.

 

1. We are told by the Hands that Vitiate has been dealt a mortal blow by the Knight, and is now recovering in slumber. This is affirmed by his silence, and by the babbling voices the Children here in their heads.

 

Except we know that Valkorion has been present on Zakuul for centuries and I think we'd hear something from his children about their father going missing for a few years. We don't. There's been a few things his hands have said that doesn't add up. Conclusion.. we don't have the full story, the hands might be misinformed, or they might not have been fully honest to the Wrath.

 

2. Vitiate's presence appears on Yavin 4 where he is stated to be regaining his lost power, and indeed he puts several complex plans into action to ensure his return i.e. manipulating Revan into reviving him.

 

This is most likely a ruse because he didn't want us to know about the Zakuul Empire. We were supposed to believe in him being the Sith Emperor and this mythological untouchable entity.

 

3. We actually see Vitiate's presence leave Yavin 4, and it is physically felt by those on the planet.

 

We see his presence and energy leaving yes which is possible if he directed it there. Again, we have no indication of Valkorion going missing on Zakuul. If he was truly sleeping or weakened in some way his son would have killed him. We know he'd kill him the first opportunity he got because when one came around he struck. He also tried killing him in the trailer but was stopped by Thexan.

 

4. It's simply implausible to assume that Valkorion would be powerful enough to project his presence all the way from Zakuul and be capable of planetary mind control and drain, and nowhere is this indicated. Nor if this were the case would multiple individuals be able to track Vitiates presence down to this planet, and sense it.

 

Yes it is plausible. It is plausible if he's closer to DE Sidious which some of us believe. It isn't possible if you think he's ROTS Sidious level. I don't believe that to be the case.

 

Now what we do now is that Valkorion existed in bodily form at this time, noting that when Senya refers to him as distant (which is when his children are young) is likely around the time of the Great Galactic War, not the Cold War.

 

We also know that according to Vaylin's codex entry:

 

"When most of the Emperor's power was locked away on Yavin 4, he was no longer able to hide Vaylin's strength from her, and she finally got a taste of her full capabilities."

 

Which is interesting in itself, as it confirms that a portion of the Emperor's spirit was indeed present on Yavin 4. My thoughts based on the above is that the Vitiate voice possessed the vast majority of Valkorion's essence as of the end of the Cold War, when he planned to perform his ritual (which I assume would have required all his power) when this plan was stopped and that voice destroyed, it put him into a state of shock.

 

Not his spirit. His power. "Most of the Emperor's power was locked away on Yavin 4." doesn't imply that power was his spirit. It doesn't use spirit anywhere there. When that power was freed from Yavin 4 it went back to it's source. Valkorion. See, you have most of it right but not the correct conclusion. Once the power was freed it was Valkorion's again and after that he attacked Ziost. Mosto f his power being on Yavin implies that not all of his power was on Yavin. His real body Valkorion was just heavily weakened. Thanks to Revan that power was returned to him. The codex doesn't refute him stretching his will to Ziost nor does it imply that it was his spirit that was on Ziost. There's little to no implication that his spirit was separated from Valkorion.

 

I do agree a lot of his power during the events of the game was in the voice but that wasn't his spirit being seperate from his body. He was capable of interacting with people as Valkorion as well but due to most of his focus being on the voice he was "Distant."

 

That portion of his essence, which for whatever reason seemed unable to return to Zakuul, was collected by his Hands (as their messages to the Wrath confirm) and taken to Yavin 4 to be restored. Once partially restored that portion of his essence then left Yavin 4 and procceeded to consume Ziost to restore his power completely. He was then presumably powerful enough to retreat to Zakuul and rejoin with his remaining essence.

 

If this is the case however, Valkorion/Vitiate was present in spirit form on Ziost and Yavin 4.[/color]

 

I disagree with your conclusion at the end because there's no basis for it. That seems to be your theory. There's no reason that after it was freed on Yavin 4 it couldn't make it's way back to Zakuul. Wouldn't the codex you mentioned earlier mention this? It doesn't.

Edited November 3, 2015 by Rhyltran

[Beniboybling]

Except we know that Valkorion has been present on Zakuul for centuries and I think we'd hear something from his children about their father going missing for a few years. We don't. There's been a few things his hands have said that doesn't add up. Conclusion.. we don't have the full story, the hands might be misinformed, or they might not have been fully honest to the Wrath.

The fact that the Sith ritual fails to go forward and the fact that the Vitiate seems incoherent to his Children suggests that he suffered a real blow. Might they be misinformed, or dishonest? Perhaps, but that's total speculation.

This is most likely a ruse because he didn't want us to know about the Zakuul Empire. We were supposed to believe in him being the Sith Emperor and this mythological untouchable entity.

Except the SWTOR codex confirms he was weakened, hence why he couldn't control Vaylin.

 

And the idea that it was all a ruse is baseless, nor can I fathom how possibly furthers his goals, please elaborate.[

We see his presence and energy leaving yes which is possible if he directed it there.

Right so Valkorion projected his energy onto Yavin 4, only to have it leave, cause reasons.

 

Compelling.

Again, we have no indication of Valkorion going missing on Zakuul.

So you assume none? Funnily enough we don't know much about what has been going on at Zakuul at all, no comment has been made as to Valkorion's condition as of Shadow of Revan, or Rise of the Emperor, all we know is that at some point he grew distant, noting Senya never says he returns.

If he was truly sleeping or weakened in some way his son would have killed him.

 

...

 

We know he'd kill him the first opportunity he got because when one came around he struck. He also tried killing him in the trailer but was stopped by Thexan.

No because this was before Arcann turned to the dark side, you'll remember that his desire to kill Valkorion only manifests at the end of the first invasion, post SOR and post Rise of the Emperor.

 

Regardless he is confirmed to be weakened in Vaylin's codex entry, which states he no longer had the power needed to contain Vaylin, so this is essentially false.

Yes it is plausible. It is plausible if he's closer to DE Sidious which some of us believe. It isn't possible if you think he's ROTS Sidious level. I don't believe that to be the case.

This isn't a DE level feat, this is unprecedented, its just not plausible that Valkorion would be able to project his power to wherever he chose, without any kind of vessel to contain it.

Not his spirit. His power. "Most of the Emperor's power was locked away on Yavin 4." doesn't imply that power was his spirit. It doesn't use spirit anywhere there. When that power was freed from Yavin 4 it went back to it's source. Valkorion.

It was power that had voice and autonomy, that's not just power, that is an entity of some kind.

 

And if he was just projecting his power, why was it locked away, what sense does this make? None.

See, you have most of it right but not the correct conclusion. Once the power was freed it was Valkorion's again and after that he attacked Ziost. Mosto f his power being on Yavin implies that not all of his power was on Yavin. His real body Valkorion was just heavily weakened. Thanks to Revan that power was returned to him. The codex doesn't refute him stretching his will to Ziost nor does it imply that it was his spirit that was on Ziost. There's little to no implication that his spirit was separated from Valkorion.

What you're not understanding is that Valkorion possesses the ability to imbue portions of his essence in Voices, not just project power, but actually place his very being into it. And that being has autonomy. So what we are seeing here is a part of Valkorion's essence, an entity in itself, not just power being channelled through Valkorion's body/midichlorians from afar. If that were the case it wouldn't be possible for it to become separate when the host dies.

I disagree with your conclusion at the end because there's no basis for it. That seems to be your theory. There's no reason that after it was freed on Yavin 4 it couldn't make it's way back to Zakuul. Wouldn't the codex you mentioned earlier mention this? It doesn't.

Because his strength wasn't fully restored, multiple sources state that on Ziost Valkorion wasn't at full strength, hence why he wasn't able to possess Lana Beniko. Evidently consuming Ziost was a necessary act.

 

Though again, this necessity to absorb power would be a non-factor if Valkorion was just projecting his power, its clear that Valkorion literally lost a part of his being, that could only be restored by consuming living Force energy.

Edited November 3, 2015 by Beniboybling

[Selenial]

I would disagree personally, problem with comparing Valk and Yoda, and Jedi & Sith in general is that they have, especially at this level, very few analogous powers. For example we have nothing to compare Valkorion's Force lightning, planetary drain feats and immortality with in Yoda, who just hasn't explored these powers. But considering Yoda has engaged in a direct contest of strength with Palpatine, we have an effective measuring stick.

 

I think if we establish exactly how powerful Yoda is in comparison to Sidious, we can use ROTS Sidious as a proxy to compare him to Valkorion.

 

P.S. Me and Aurbere had a discussion about Prime Yoda, and we decided it was probably best to judge ROTS Yoda seeing as Prime Yoda's capabilities are for the most part totally speculative.

Which is a huge double standard. He's competed with Sidious in the sphere of Telekinesis and held off his Force Lightning. That really does not mean they're comparable in the force, merely those areas of combat.

 

Jedi and Sith excel in different areas of the Force. Surik was talented in Control, hardly comparable in Alter. Traya has some of the greatest Sense feats we've seen in the Mythos, but she's not up there in Alter or Control. To suggest Yoda and Sidious have equal force powers because they were a match in Telekinesis and Lightning is flawed to say the least, again, an expanded comparison needs to be made.

Edited November 3, 2015 by Selenial

[Beniboybling]

Which is a huge double standard. He's competed with Sidious in the sphere of Telekinesis and held off his Force Lightning. That really does not mean they're comparable in the force, merely those areas of combat.

 

Jedi and Sith excel in different areas of the Force. Surik was talented in Control, hardly comparable in Alter. Traya has some of the greatest Sense feats we've seen in the Mythos, but she's not up there in Alter or Control. To suggest Yoda and Sidious have equal force powers because they were a math in Telekinesis and Lightning is flawed to say the least, again, an expanded comparison needs to be made.

Fair point, fair point. I still feel Palpatine is an invaluable measuring stick though, at least in some respects.

 

EDIT: Altogether what are are thoughts overall? Are we at least in agreement that DE Palpatine > Valky?

 

And what of Plagueis? Personally I think the parity he establishes here with Palpatine proves he is superior at least in terms of Alter. And I think a few other points can be made in terms of Control and Sense.

Edited November 3, 2015 by Beniboybling

[cs_zoltan]

EDIT: Altogether what are are thoughts overall? Are we at least in agreement that DE Palpatine > Valky?

 

DE Sidious > Yoda > RotS Sidious > Valky > Plagueis, for me.

[PadsterPwns]

Fair point, fair point. I still feel Palpatine is an invaluable measuring stick though, at least in some respects.

 

EDIT: Altogether what are are thoughts overall? Are we at least in agreement that DE Palpatine > Valky?

 

And what of Plagueis? Personally I think the parity he establishes here with Palpatine proves he is superior at least in terms of Alter. And I think a few other points can be made in terms of Control and Sense.

 

I with you on Plagueis, Vitiate/Valky hasn't displayed any TK feats that convince me he surpasses a Sith who practically atomized assailants with Force Pushes. As far as Force Lightning goes I'd say Valky is his superior though not by much. Honestly I think Plagueis is superior in the field of Alter but I'm not too sure concerning Sense and Control. I'll do some more research.

[Beniboybling]

I with you on Plagueis, Vitiate/Valky hasn't displayed any TK feats that convince me he surpasses a Sith who practically atomized assailants with Force Pushes. As far as Force Lightning goes I'd say Valky is his superior though not by much. Honestly I think Plagueis is superior in the field of Alter but I'm not too sure concerning Sense and Control. I'll do some more research.

I meant Valkorion.

[S_W_LeGenD]

Right, which is the primary reason why we are not making a comparison with individuals who are constrained by bodily form, because they are at an inherent disadvantage. Force entities are not being considered for this list, end of story.

Valkorion [is] an entity, right?

 

Valkorion doesn't needs corporeal vessels to exist, maintain his power and manipulate the physical realm [He confirms this in KoTFE]. He have apparently achieved immortality; an accomplishment for which he invested considerable time and explored the most sinister and uncharted depths of the Dark Side.

 

Valkorion [completely] shed his mortal coil ever since he developed his (first) Voice. He [will be] portrayed in both disembodied and corporeal forms when story demands it. Therefore, if Valkorion is being included in the rankings, all of his feats should be considered for evaluation.

 

We have witnessed a number of characters retaining their identity after corporeal demise. Examples include Yoda, Luke Skywalker, Palpatine, Revan, Karness Muur and Exar Kun. Yoda and Luke Skywalker died naturally but Palpatine cheated corporeal death. Exar Kun performed a ritual to shed his mortal coil and cheat corporeal death and Karness Muur transferred his essence into an artifact for reasons he knows best. More importantly, we know how each turns out to be after corporeal demise. Their capabilities are not hidden.

 

The DE representation of Palpatine is similar to that of Valkorion. However, some differences are apparent:

 

 

• Palpatine (during the events of DE) had no regard for the safety of a cloned body [that he used as a vessel] and channeled his full power through it (Palpatine metaphorically abused a cloned body in this manner and it would deteriorate due to his heavy Dark Side practices and activities); this makes sense because Palpatine had virtually endless supply of cloned bodies and they were expendable. Palpatine was also apparently restricted in his ability to manipulate the physical realm in disembodied form; he needed a corporeal vessel to unlock his powers to full extent. Therefore, Palpatine desired a body of a strong Force-sensitive so he would be complete like was in earlier times.
   
   
  
• Valkorion have been calculative in his actions in corporeal form because he was not willing to harm his original body until he could cheat corporeal death. Even after shedding his mortal coil, he remained calculative in his actions because; [1] his Voices were (not) cloned bodies but [actual] living beings; and [2] acts [of great destruction and evil] would draw unnecessary attention and more would turn against him. Those who somehow find about his intentions and history, were willing to go to any extent to stop him and his (supposed) demise was welcomed by some. However, the ancient Sith Empire officially disowned Valkorion after the events of Ziost and was willing to work with the Republic and the Jedi Order to destroy him through any means necessary. However, Valkorion eventually achieved immortality and he was no longer concerned about the loss of a corporeal vessel (as noted in KoTFE). However, Valkorion has not harmed the Outlander (yet).
  

 

My point is that every entity is not the same. They vary in power and capabilities just like living beings.

 

As for the rest, it's pretty obvious you don't understand my "theories" at all, hopefully others show greater insight. And if you are going to criticise them, be specific and provide context, rather than these generalised accusations.

I (do) understand your theories but I have noticed loopholes in them and point them out to you at times. Your theories are not infallible, dear. Valkorion is an entity and his abilities should not be in doubt because he defies logic and conventional limits by virtue of his nature and strength.

 

Did you miss this response? http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=790858&page=497

 

I suggest that you look at this thread as well: http://www.comicvine.com/profile/darthant66/blog/the-dread-masters-respect-thread/97192/ (You will notice some crazy stuff that mere mortals have done or can do)

 

And altogether try to comprehend your opponents argument before critiquing it. Though its ironic that you pretty much admit its validity in the same paragraph, supposed that demonstrates the extent to which you missed the point.

I am doing just that.

 

P.S. However at this stage I fully acknowledge that Valkorion possesses world-consuming power, though it remains questionable whether he is capable of channeling such power through his bodily form without ritual assistance. Not that that detracts from his ability to do it, only the time it would take. So that's another baseless accusation from you.

Good to know.

 

I am willing to acknowledge the possibility that Valkorion may not go absolutely ballistic in corporeal form but I don't see a reason to doubt his abilities even in corporeal form. He (officially) consistently grew in power with passage of time, remember?

Edited November 3, 2015 by S_W_LeGenD

[PadsterPwns]

I meant Valkorion.

 

Wait do you mean you think Plagueis > Valky or Valky > Plagueis in Alter? I think the former but I need to do research in regards to Control and Sense.

[Beniboybling]

*snip*

Valkorion's incorporeal feats can be compared with Palpatine's incorporeal feats (and have) in order to establish superiority, but because the intrinsic differences in nature, Vakorion's incorporeal feats cannot be compared to Palpatine's corporeal accomplishments, unless you can prove he can perform them in bodily form. Pretty simple.

 

And yes, you have critiqued my theories many times. However of late you seem to have admitted that the limitations of the mortal coil, and yet continue to disregard my theories as false. Funny that.

Wait do you mean you think Plagueis > Valky or Valky > Plagueis in Alter? I think the former but I need to do research in regards to Control and Sense.

Valkorion has surpassed Plagueis in all respects IMO. Edited November 3, 2015 by Beniboybling