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The REAL Most Powerful Force Users - Rebooted

Beniboybling

By Beniboybling
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MarcheseAMM

MarcheseAMM

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So if people actually take the time and make a long comparison it's tl;dr? But we should submit to "Valky too stronk" hype?

 

I expect the same eagerness from you when I make a four page one on Revan vs Darth Krayt.

 

And it will be personally directed at you so you need to either respond or concede.

 

That being said, I'll still respond, but don't act so surprised why Valkorion-supporters haven't responded to him.

 

:rolleyes:

Edited by MarcheseAMM
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Selenial

Selenial

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I've got Valkorion around ROTJ Sidious level, personally.

 

I question why the **** it's relevant. To suggest that Valkorion < ROTS Sidious therefore he's below Yoda is ludicrous. If you're going to opt for a feat based thread then you should stick to that, instead of letting Yoda hide behind the fact he's often considered a peer of Sidious as of ROTS. A comparison against Sidious is irrelevant if we don't place Valkorion above DE Sidious since we're taking his strongest incarnation for this list.

 

I suggest doing a comparison of Yoda and Valkorion in greater depth, and then addressing the motion that Yoda wasn't in his prime. Personally I used to entertain that notion, but I've been having second thoughts.

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Rhyltran

Rhyltran

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His Ziost feat was addressed months ago.

 

I don't re-call. How about a memory refresher? If I re-call months ago the expansion wasn't out yet and we were operating on the assumption that it was a spirit feat thus not applicable. We know now this isn't true. In fact, he directed his will all the way from Zakuul to Ziost. That is incredible.

 

All based on hype. People also think Nox > Mace. Fact is HoT doesn't even have feats that puts him above Kenobi let alone the same league as Mace.

 

I seriously disagree here but that will be another debate. I don't think Kenobi is going to be taking down the voice of the Emperor who was capable of one shotting a strike team consisting of some of the era's strongest Jedi and Obiwan is my favorite character.

 

And Dooku can ragdoll Kenobi who is at least on par with the HoT, but likely even better.

 

That's fine and good but HOT is more powerful than Kenobi by feats alone so that's not really relevant.

 

HoT isn't close to Windu, and I wager that Arcann won't land far from him either. In any case this is all nice and good, but you avoided my question. Deliberately? What RotS Sidious' lightning did to Yoda would evaporate Arcann...

 

You speak as if the bolded is fact. You then go on to claim that Sidious lightning would vaporize Arcann. Do you have any proof to back this up? As far as I'm aware Arcann is able to deflect lightning capable of destroying starships with the slightest touch as well as falling down a height where we can't even see the bottom. Also I roll my eyes at Arcann being as strong as Obi Wan because I don't think Obi Wan can survive a fall like that. In fact he fell off a ledge that wasn't even as close to that and was saved because he landed in water.

 

P.S. While I disagree that the HOT is as strong as Kenobi you do realize that Dooku is considered a peer to Windu right? That Arcann ragdolls the HOT and impales him with very little effort when he refuses help from Valkorion, correct? If the HOT is Obi Wan's level this would put Arcann on Windu's level. If HOT is stronger than Windu then Arcann is likely above Windu. Either way Arcann is a peer to Windu or higher.

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Aurbere

Aurbere

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I've got Valkorion around ROTJ Sidious level, personally.

 

I question why the **** it's relevant. To suggest that Valkorion < ROTS Sidious therefore he's below Yoda is ludicrous. If you're going to opt for a feat based thread then you should stick to that, instead of letting Yoda hide behind the fact he's often considered a peer of Sidious as of ROTS. A comparison against Sidious is irrelevant if we don't place Valkorion above DE Sidious since we're taking his strongest incarnation for this list.

 

I suggest doing a comparison of Yoda and Valkorion in greater depth, and then addressing the motion that Yoda wasn't in his prime. Personally I used to entertain that notion, but I've been having second thoughts.

 

Agreed with this, mostly. I suggested to Beni that we directly compare Valky to Yoda. Also, Valky is superior to ROTS Sidious by a solid margin.

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MarcheseAMM

MarcheseAMM

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So it seems that we have two supporters for Valkorion > Yoda. Aurbere is also in agreement and Selenial is of the opinion that Valkorion is ROTS Sidious level who defeated Yoda. Do we have enough to officially state Valkorion > Yoda?

 

Looks like it. Awesome. Time for Revan > Krayt.

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cs_zoltan

cs_zoltan

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The rules are that two of three arbiters must agree. Then there needs to be two supporters. Aurbere and Selenial are both arbiters.

 

No, the rules are that all of them have to agree. And unless any of you actually makes a refutal it's all irrelevant. I could get 20 guys to come in here and say Aayla > Valkorion, doesn't mean it will fly.

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Aurbere

Aurbere

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Rather than simply list Revan’s feats, which we all know, I’ll follow standard argument model and show why exactly Revan is more powerful than his peers in the selection. To do so, I’ll be taking things category-by-category (using information presented in Beni’s comparison) and using standard comparison methods. For those who thought this would never get posted, behold and acknowledge your folly.

 

Control

 

Vs Starkiller

 

 

Starkiller was skilled in physical augmentation with the Force. He was able to increase his speed, stamina, and other physical aspects to great heights. Notably, he was able to survive for nearly two weeks without food, sleep, or drink by sustaining himself with the Force. And before his prime was able to engage in marathon long lightsaber duels with his master, Darth Vader, for hours at a time. He also managed to survive being impaled in the stomach and exposed to the vacuum of space for a prolonged period of time.

 

I don’t doubt that Starkiller is a machine, but I have my doubts that these are enough to put him over Revan in this regard. Obviously I’ll point to Revan’s feat on the Star Forge. Keeping in mind that Revan engaged and defeated droid armies and an army of Sith troopers and Dark Jedi. Malak himself says he dispatched all available forces against Revan:

 

"Strange. I did not think there were any among the Order who could survive an attack by an army of the Star Forge battle droids... Revan was always strong in the Force. Very well-send out all available troops. The apprentices, as well!"
―Darth Malak (Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic)

 

(Not to mention his victory over Malak, which I will address later)

 

Yet that wasn’t enough. Keeping in mind that the Star Forge is a potent nexus of the dark side and Revan would have had his abilities in the Force diminished. What this means is that Revan would have had his ability to augment his speed and strength hindered. It shows excellent stamina and ability that he was still able to overcome these challenges. I do find this display of stamina superior to Starkiller’s, as engagements with armies in a hindered state should logically be superior to engaging in standard lightsaber duels for long periods of time.

 

Not to mention Revan’s strength, displayed in his victories over multiple Terentateks, two of which were fought simultaneously on a dark side nexus. I fully believe Revan has the advantage in Force augmentation over Starkiller.

 

There is also Revan’s feat of endurance on Yavin IV where he withstood a blast of power designed to kill all life in a 1km radius. While I recognize the argument that this is merely game mechanics, one must also understand that this was a story element and Revan would be forced to suffer this blast in the fight otherwise the strike team (the protags) would have been wiped out. Revan withstood this blast and recovered in seconds to continue fighting. This is a feat of endurance and Force Valor exceeding Starkiller’s ‘marathon duels’ by a fair margin.

 

His Force defenses were strong enough to repel energy and kinetic attacks. He was able to withstand the force of incredibly powerful missiles, attacks from the massive Gorog, and even the heat that could be found projected by the outer layer of a star. He was also able to repel Force lightning with a Force Barrier. Most impressively he was able to withstand the full brunt of Sidious' lightning for a prolonged period and take steps towards him.

 

I’ll grant Starkiller the advantage here (since I’m a nice guy like that :p), but I assert that Revan is in Starkiller’s playing field in this regard. Being able to deflect the full force of Darth Nyriss’ nexus enhanced lightning storm with ease is an extremely impressive feat, especially since said lightning was able to reduce her to ash despite her summoning a Force Shield. It is an extremely impressive display of defensive techniques.

 

What I also find interesting is that Revan tanked Force lightning from Vitiate that was stated to be ‘infinitely’ more powerful than Nyriss’ without dying. I’m personally assuming he diminished the power of the lightning blast when he attempted to absorb it.

 

The Emperor rose to his feet, his robes smoking and singed where the lighting had struck him. His black eyes flashed red, and he raised both hands high above his head.

 

Revan knew he was gathering his power to unleash a swirling storm of pure dark side energy, just as Nyriss had done. The Jedi quickly calculated his options. Realizing he couldn’t close the gap between them quickly enough to stop the assault, he gathered his own energy and spread his hands before him, ready to catch and absorb the Emperor’s attack.

 

A dozen bolts of purple lightning arced from the Emperor toward him. Revan tried to draw them in and contain them, but the Emperor was infinitely more powerful than Darth Nyriss had ever been.

 

Revan’s body was engulfed in agony as the electricity coursed through his body. His skin began to boil and blister, the flesh of his face melting and sticking to the superheated metal of his mask as the Emperor poured more and more power into him.

 

Through the haze of indescribable pain, he saw T3-M4 rushing in to help him. The droid let loose with his flamethrower, bathing the Emperor in fire. At the last instant the Emperor cocooned himself in the Force to save himself from being incinerated, breaking his focus on Revan.

 

The Jedi collapsed to the ground, burned but still alive, the hilt of his extinguished lightsaber lying on the floor less than a meter beyond his grasp.

—Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan

 

It’s a logical assumption to make. If Vitiate’s lightning is ‘infinitely’ more powerful than Nyriss’ then Revan should have been reduced to cinders, rather than being left on his knees for mere seconds. Thus, I believe that Revan obviously possessed the raw power to diminish such extremely powerful lightning to the point that he wasn’t outright killed as he would have been otherwise. Of course this was also before his increase in power.

 

Finally, he was also able to conceal himself with the Force, effectively disappearing into the background.

 

Well, as you pointed out, Revan has this ability too. More importantly, he has this displayed against other Force users on Korriban (again while weakened), which is what is most important in my opinion. So Revan should have the advantage here, for me.

 

What I think gives Revan the further advantage in Control over Starkiller is his many other abilities and his greater mastery of the field that Starkiller simply doesn’t possess. A mastery of Force healing, Essence Transfer, the ability to become a Force Spirit, and others is a demonstration of mastery of Control that Starkiller has yet to achieve. While you can pose the argument that Starkiller would eventually reach that level of mastery over time, it is speculation and leaves further speculation open for others. For example, we grant Sidious an advantage over Vitiate because of his Force Storms, yet one can make the assumption that Vitiate would eventually learn and master such a power thus Force Storm shouldn’t give Sidious the advantage. But, again, it’s speculation. The fact is that Starkiller hasn’t utilized such abilities and has yet to reach Revan’s mastery, and it is these facts that should be argued, rather than ascribing Starkiller with abilities and potential he has yet to attain.

 

So I mark Revan over Starkiller in Control.

 

 

Vs Exar Kun

 

 

While I would assess Exar Kun here, I feel that Revan’s advantage over Starkiller is an advantage over Kun in this field. Notably, I don’t put much stock in Kun’s strength feats as some take place on nexuses of dark side energy, while his most notable—breaking Vodo’s staff—is explained. I’ll briefly elaborate:

 

I believe that the durability of Vodo’s weapon is based on his ability to call on the Force. As he says himself, his staff is empowered by the Force to be made that strong. If he runs out of energy, how can he make his weapon that strong? I feel that Exar’s strength pushed Vodo too far and he ran out of the energy to sustain his enhancement of the weapon. I don’t doubt the impressiveness of the feat at all, but I wouldn’t take it at face value.

 

I simply find Revan’s greater range of powers in this field to be an advantage over Kun.

 

 

Vs Vader

 

 

Darth Vader has demonstrated incredibly impressive Force augmentation abilities, being capable of moving at such speeds that he appeared to teleport, even to the eyes of trained Force-sensitives, with his speed compared to Yoda and his reflexes described as faster than thought - despite being burned by very heavy body armor, and the various mechanical inadequacies of his suit. He was also capable of speed blitzing Jedi Knights with a single attack and keeping up with the likes of Starkiller and Maul.

 

Based upon Revan’s performance in Shadow of Revan and by virtue of being more powerful than Marr, I’d say ‘appearing to teleport’ is well within Revan’s range of speed, as Marr was capable of appearing to teleport to the eyes of a Sith Lord. I’d say that Revan is on that level of speed, if not moreso, as he needed to be faster than Marr in order to outpace him and keep up with the rest of the group.

 

We can say that Vader would have been faster if not for the suit, sure, but that’s a hypothetical Vader. The fact is that Vader is limited, and removing said limits creates speculation on what Vader could be capable of. I for one am not willing to do that. So Revan’s obviously faster.

 

Vader has also demonstrated exceptional blaster bolt deflection, capable of deflecting a flurry of blaster bolts at point blank range, Vader was even capable of intercepting bolts despite them moving at the speed of light.

 

That’s a feat most exceptional Force users can pull off, so there’s really no reason to apply a counter here.

 

In terms of strength augmentation Vader was capable of completely crushing armor and skulls with ease, tearing off durasteel doors, shattering a crystalline pillar he was tied to while weakened, punching through metal, sending droids flying with a movement of his arm was capable of supporting the weight of a dozen men.

 

Finally in terms of endurance Vader was ample to shrug off impalement to the abdomen, survived being buried alive for days without a breathing mask, has withstood large explosions at point blank range with barely a scratch, has withstood powerful telekinetic barrages, extremely potent blasts of Force lightning that could vaporise non-Force sensitives and totally incapacitate and quickly kill powerful Force users. He has also engaged in marathon lightsaber duels, engaging a young Starkiller for hours without suffering a scratch or tiring.

 

Granted. Vader’s a kriffing boss.

 

Vader has also demonstrated impressive healing capabilities, willing himself back from the brink of death and keeping himself alive in near death situations purely through the power of his rage and the dark side. Vader was also able to temporarily heal his damaged lungs and breath without assistance for a time.

 

Similarly, Revan has willed himself back from the dead after the Battle of the Foundry. Additionally, Revan was able to recover from a barrage of Vitiate’s potent Force lightning using Force Healing, which outstrips Vader’s ability to heal his lungs, in my opinion.

 

Vader also demonstrated exceptional skill in tutanimis, creating potent Force barriers that could withstand the firepower of potentially over a hundred shooters and simultaneously generate devastating Force waves. He was also capable of deflecting and redirecting multiple blaster bolts at a time with his hands.

 

And Revan was able to deflect blasts of Force Lightning that could turn Force users to ash. His defensive capabilities are superior to Vader’s.

 

I find Revan superior to Vader in control because he simply has greater mastery of the Force in this area. He has a wider range of powers and similar levels of proficiency to Vader in the abilities that they share. Vader’s strength and endurance, while superior to Revan’s, are also benefitted from his suit. His cybernetics allows him to withstand injuries that normal humans cannot withstand. He can have an arm taken off and continue fighting because his constant supply of pain killers and the fact that his limbs are cybernetic allow him to better deal with the pain. I find that this somewhat mitigates some of his endurance feats and, like-wise, his strength feats. Revan has no such benefits. He must survive purely on his Force-based augmentation.

 

I believe that Revan is superior to Kun, Starkiller, and Vader in this regard for several reasons. In many respects, his demonstrated ability in this area surpasses his peers, and he possesses a greater mastery of the field than they do. And in abilities where he doesn’t surpass them, he is close enough for the difference not to matter in comparison to his broader mastery and superior demonstrations of power.

 

On to Sense.

 

 

Sense

 

Vs Starkiller

 

 

Starkiller despite having no formal training in foresight abilities, was able to uncover the nature, design and location of the Death Star after a period of meditation, and was even able to predict several possible futures as to what his eventual fate and the fate of his companions would be.

 

I don’t think I really need to say anything here. The ability to receive visions is not really anything indicative of power. Indeed, the Padawan Whie received many, many visions that were perfectly accurate (he foresaw nearly all of the events he would participate in during Dark Rendezvous, and saw his own death as well). Even if we did consider this, however, Revan has certainly matched Starkiller’s foresight abilities with his own, both in visions of the future through Farsight as well as his precognitive abilities. Case closed.

 

 

Vs Exar Kun

 

 

Kun was able to sense others across large distances, and even managed to sense the presence of users of Sith Magic, the Ketos, from across the galaxy.

 

Not really something Revan can’t do. He can and has done similar, and has a greater range of powers in this sphere as well. Kun’s outclassed.

 

(I’ll be elaborating on Revan’s abilities in the ‘Vs Vader’ section)

 

 

Vs Vader

 

 

Vader could project his thoughts over vast distances, was able to sense the conflict in Starkiller's mind over holocall from light years away, read the surface thoughts of others and sense psychic disturbances of powerful Force sensitives, such as when he sensed the presence of Obi-Wan Kenobi.

 

Most of this Revan has already matched. Where Revan leaps ahead is, again, his precognitive abilities. He has displayed superior precognitive abilities to the Echani, the greatest of whom can predict the paths of wars. Revan slaughtered them because he was able to outmaneuver them through his own abilities. Vader has not displayed this level of ability in this area in any degree. Thus, Revan outclasses him.

 

I would also take the moment to bring up mental resistance. Revan’s mental resistance is ludicrous and reaches to potentially the highest levels. Revan was able to resist the mental assaults from both Vitiate and the Dread Masters, despite their best attempts to break apart his mind:

 

"So many centuries. The Emperor and his Dread Masters, trying to wrench me apart, to unleash my anger and hatred..."

―Revan (Star Wars: The Old Republic)

 

The answers were all there, but Revan would not surrender them easily. Though he was physically helpless, mentally he was strong enough to wage war against the Emperor, guarding his secrets for however long it might take.

―Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan

 

“I paid the price as the Emperor ravaged my mind over centuries, but I gave him nothing.”

—Revan

 

And while it is true that Meetra provided him with the energy needed to wage the war, the fact remains that it was just that: energy. She did not bolster his willpower, only provided him with the energy to contend for as long as necessary. The simple fact is that Revan fought a mental war with Vitiate and the Dread Masters and did not succumb. Yes, people claim he went insane afterwards, but Revan never gave him what he wanted, and that is the point. Vitiate, the same Vitiate who could break some of the most powerful Jedi of the Order and subjugate planets with his powers, could not break him. Additionally, he was able to resist the Dread Masters as well. Need I tell you that the Dread Masters have destroyed armies with their mental powers?

 

This feat of mental resistance vastly exceeds anything the other three have displayed, and is yet another example of Revan’s superiority to them.

 

Now for Alter.

 

 

Alter

 

Vs Starkiller

 

 

Starkiller was experienced in mental manipulation and the projection of illusions. He was able to coerce others into providing him with information or distracting them. He was also able to make others see phantoms.

 

Revan’s mental manipulation powers exceed Starkiller’s by a huge margin. His ability to mentally affect the Force-resistant Rakatan species eclipses Starkiller’s rather basic mental manipulation powers. Additionally, Revan was able to project Force visions into the minds of others from across the galaxy. Notably, he did so to Lord Darkspanner:

 

Darkspanner learned the truth of Revan’s fate when the man himself appeared to her in a vision beckoning her to leave Dromund Kaas and seek him out. Impressed with all she’d accomplished as the self-appointed “Master” of the order, Revan offered Darkspanner the opportunity to expand the order’s roster and purpose.

―Lord Darkspanner Codex Entry (Star Wars: The Old Republic)

 

Revan’s abilities here are superior to Starkiller’s, and I will further reinforce this later.

 

One of Starkiller’s most notable abilities was Force lightning. He was able to channel lightning through his lightsaber to cause severe damage to the massive Gorog. His bursts of lightning could blow through Darth Vader’s specifically insulated suit, and even vaporize Stormtroopers.

 

The original Galen Marek was able to use Force lightning to shut down or destroy massive vehicles, even AT-ATs.

 

I won’t pretend that Revan is superior here, because he is not. However, I believe that Revan’s ability to easily contain and redirect lightning of incredible strength, and diminish the power of lightning superior to Starkiller’s (Vitiate’s) suggests a level of superiority over him. I am not suggesting that Revan’s tutaminis reflects his ability with Lightning, but I am suggesting that if Revan can so easily deflect such powerful lightning, then he is more powerful than Starkiller in this regard, as he would need to be able to generate more power than the lightning sent at him in order to deflect it.

 

That is my stance on the issue.

 

His mastery of telekinesis was incredible. He was easily able to generate powerful Force Waves to throw aside multiple enemies and lift massive structures. His Force Repulses could bombard enemies with enough force to cause severe physical injury, possibly blowing them apart. He was able to telekinetically move a Nebulon-B frigate, and even blow apart a portion of the ship.

 

The original Galen Marek was able to blow away hundreds of enemies at a time, push over an AT-AT and even move a Star Destroyer.

 

Once again, the issue is not Revan’s outright superiority in this area, as Starkiller’s ability to manipulate objects exceeds Revan’s (even though Starkiller’s greatest feats are circumstantial). What I will address, however, is Revan’s ability to manipulate Force users. As always, the ability to assault other Force users with Force abilities is a major factor, more important than affecting objects. And in this regard, Revan has Starkiller outclassed by a significant margin in terms of feats in this area. I am, of course, going to refer to his much contested Yavin feat. If nexus feats are going to be used for the others, then I may as well do the same. So here: http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_medium/11114/111140132/4255498-revan+tk.gif

 

Once again I’ll bring up the (uncontested argument) fact that he summons this Force Wave, a storm of Force lightning and a cyclone at the same time, which would serve to mitigate the effectiveness of the nexus. Revan threw back some of the most powerful Force users in the galaxy with that attack. Starkiller’s Force attacks against the low-level Masters Kazdan and Kota do not compare to the de facto leaders of their respective Orders (Marr and Shan). Not to mention various factors were involved in that feat. Revan had just recently engaged another strike team where he suffered an attack that would have wiped out all life in a 1km radius and his Force Essence was damaged when the Machine Core became unstable. Revan would obviously be suffering from the effects of the previous battle when he accomplished that feat.

 

Additionally, Revan possessed potent abilities with pure Force energies. Firstly, he was able to use Force Destruction to summon waves of pure Force energy to slowly destroy members of the Coalition Strike Team, and he was able to unleash a blast of pure Force energy to throw back the Sith Emperor. This is a level of mastery over the Force that Starkiller has not attained, and the ability to unleash such attacks demonstrates immense raw power in the Force.

 

What I believe marks Revan over Starkiller in Alter is not just his ability to manipulate Force users, but his mastery of the field and the variety and depth of powers that he can unleash. His extensive skill in esoteric abilities such as teleportation and Force Drain demonstrate a mastery of the Force that Starkiller has not attained. His ability to draw on pure Force energy to attack his foes with shows not only mastery, but a level of understanding and power that Starkiller has not matched. I believe that, despite Starkiller’s immense raw power, he has yet to reach Revan’s mastery of the Force and yet to match Revan’s displays of raw power in situ against Force users. That is why I am backing Revan over Starkiller in this category.

 

I’ll elaborate further later.

 

 

Vs Exar Kun

 

 

Exar Kun possessed powerful telekinetic abilities, capable of Force crushing Odan Urr to death, and hurling Jedi Knights away with powerful Force pushes, and he was capable of Force flight which he could use to slow his fall.

 

I do not believe I need to post more regarding telekinesis. Exar Kun’s telekinetic feats are rather mediocre in comparison to Revan’s. Defeating Odan-Urr is a great feat, yes, but Revan easily telekinetically assaulted Force users comparable if not superior to Odan-Urr. Revan outstrips Kun in this area. Nothing more needs to be said.

 

Exar Kun was also a mastery of Sith Sorcery, and in particular favoured use of the Force Blast. A powerful projection of pure dark side energy that could vaporize objects, opponents and even Force sensitives. An ability which Exar Kun used to incapacitate Aleema Keto, and destroy the spirit of Freedon Nadd.

 

I will first address the circumstances of these Force Blasts, as it is important to recognize them. Firstly, one must recognize that the amulet Exar Kun used, what was responsible for Nadd’s second death, is an amulet designed to focus his hatred and anger into tremendous power. Additionally, the amulet amplifies Kun’s rage and anger upon contact. The comic states all of this, and that he used his anger to destroy Nadd:

 

“With a clasp of iron, the amulet clamps itself to his arm—Exar Kun suddenly feels his rage multiply a thousand times…then a hundred thousand times—

 

What Exar Kun understands is that the Dark Rage that fills his own heart can be focused into this amulet, unleashing tremendous energies!”—Tales of the Jedi

 

“Following the impulse of anger, Exar Kun turns the amulet against his mentor--”—Tales of the Jedi

 

What logic follows then is that the amulet serves to increase his power and serve as a focusing point for his anger (the basis of Sith power). It is obvious that the amulet’s attacks are augmented, and thus not an accurate indication of his powers. What must also be kept in mind is that Exar Kun was only able to incapacitate Aleema with his Force Blasts, despite every intention of killing her, as he desired to eliminate rivals to his power:

 

“It is time to reach out to these students of Freedon Nadd—and destroy them!”—Exar Kun(Tales of the Jedi)

 

It’s interesting, isn’t it? I believe that, at the first moment Kun used the amulet, the power within the artifact was far greater as said amulets appeared to be situated within fountains of dark side energy (which is true as I showed in previous threads). It would explain why he could destroy Nadd but only incapacitate Aleema. Regardless, the main point is that the Force Blasts Kun employs are not truly representative of his power, and are most likely demonstrations of his amplified powers.

 

He was also capable of dominating and controlling the minds of non-Force sensitives with a Sith Spell - the strain of which resulted in the death of the victim, and was able to perform a mass hypnosis to paralyse the senate.

 

Once again, the product of sorcery, as the comic itself dictates:

 

“The entire chamber is frozen, forced to watch and not react. Exar Kun’s Sith Spell has worked silently, and perfectly.”—Tales of the Jedi

 

Need I delve into the Sorcery that Revan could perform? Revan’s spells and rituals put Exar Kun’s spell of paralysis to shame:

 

"To Bane it seemed the teachings contained within the single holocron surpassed those of the Academy's entire archives. Revan had discovered many of the rituals of the ancient sith, and as the holocron's avatar explained their nature and purpose, Bane could barely wrap his mind around their awesome potential. Some of the rituals were so terrible, so dangerous to attempt, even for a true Sith master, that he doubted he would ever dare to use them."

―Darth Bane (Star Wars: Darth Bane: Path of Destruction)

 

Keep in mind that this is the same Darth Bane who arranged for the use of the Thought Bomb, a ritual that collected the souls of any nearby Force-sensitive and locked them in a sphere wherein they would be tormented for centuries. And that’s a ritual he learned from Revan.

 

Indeed, and Revan is a capable user of Sith Sorcery, as he had every intention of employing a Sith ritual that would drain all life on Yavin IV:

 

"[A ritual] capable of killing every living thing on this moon, as fuel for the Emperor's resurrection."

―Darth Marr (Star Wars: The Old Republic)

 

Notably, said rituals put Exar Kun’s ritual to unleash his Force essence to shame. Revan’s knowledge and application of rituals surpasses Kun’s.

 

And speaking of knowledge, Revan has Force knowledge that is practically unique to him. He uncovered and studied Malachor V before it was destroyed. Malachor was a planet-sized storehouse of Sith knowledge:

 

"Unbeknownst to the Jedi Order, Darth Revan has discovered numerous Sith artifacts and holocrons, all stored in great tomb-like cities buried beneath Malachor V's surface. As Revan plundered these tombs and relics, he fell deeper into the Dark Side. He learned of the location and the true nature of Korriban, he learned of the location of other Sith artifacts, and he learned how those strong in the light side of the Force could be seduced and made to see the strength inherent in the Sith teachings. Revan knew he had discovered more than a staging area for the Mandalorian War - he had discovered an ancient, planet-sized Sith storehouse of knowledge."

―Star Wars: Chronicles of the Old Republic

 

Revan’s superiority to Kun in this area should not really be in doubt. Revan has surpassed Kun’s telekinetic feats and has a greater display of Sorcery. He exceeds Kun’s abilities in Alter. Need to use his hype to make it a closer match-up, honestly.

 

 

Vs Vader

 

 

Vader is the one I believe to be most worthy of the spot aside from Revan, and his Alter feats show why. I do not feel the need to repeat myself regarding Telekinesis as I feel Revan has the same advantage there against Vader as he did against Starkiller (superior feats against Force users). However, I will address some specific feats of Vader’s as they stack up to Revan’s.

 

He was capable of a killing multiple targets with saber throw, and igniting, impaling and pinwheeling his blade using using telekinetic lightsaber combat

 

Saber throw is a rather basic power, and Revan has used it too:

 

"Revan used that moment to unleash a sidearm throw of his lightsaber. The blade went spinning out in a wide arcing path that ended both their lives before they could move."

―Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan

 

Additionally, Revan has used telekinetic combat as well. Even better, he did so in situ:

 

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_medium/11114/111140132/4306234-revan+yeah.gif

 

So Revan has matched and exceeded Vader on these fronts, as far as I see it.

 

Vader also possessed potent telepathic abilities, capable of inducing fear in the minds of his soldiers, using Force horror to send Force sensitives into a near vegetative state, and force targets to relive their worst memories. Vader was also capable of using Force persuasion which he almost used to turn Luke to the dark side, and later used Drain Knowledge on him, despite being Master-level. Vader could also use beast control.

 

Revan is skilled in Force fear as well:

 

"[Revan] reached out with the Force, amplifying the other's fear and confusion."

―Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan

 

I’ll even go one better. Revan was able to augment even Vitiate’s fears:

 

Revan played on the Emperor's caution and patience, constantly pushing them to the forefront of his enemy's mind. He augmented his irrational fear of death. At every opportunity he reinforced the idea that invading the Republic was reckless and dangerous.

―Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan

 

A feat surpassing Vader’s, no doubt.

 

Revan’s other telepathic feats surpass Vader’s by a hefty margin. Firstly, he was able to use telepathy to affect the minds of Jedi to such a point that they would be unable to draw on the Force:

 

"Make him doubt himself, his beliefs, or his intentions. Such things disrupt connections to the Force - and death soon follows. Generally, this was done by broadcasting strong emotions while thinking about something else. It was a curious technique, but it seemed to be effective in blinding Jedi. Whether guilt, lust, fear - they act as mental interference, making finding the true intentions of the broadcasting meatbag difficult."

―HK-47 (Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic 2: The Sith Lords)

 

Additionally, Revan was even able to not only manipulate Vitiate, but employ Drain Knowledge as well:

 

"Finally, the Emperor permitted the war to end in a truce- his ruthless tactics unknowingly calmed by his mental link with the Jedi Master Revan, a legendary Republic hero..."

―Star Wars: The Old Republic Encyclopedia

 

"...I learned a lot as his prisoner. Centuries of knowledge."

―Revan (Star Wars: The Old Republic)

 

Even better, he did this without Vitiate knowing. Doing so requires both mastery and power, and is a demonstration of mental influence that Vader has never demonstrated. Regardless of their mental link, Revan had to affect Vitiate enough without him knowing. It is a vastly superior mental manipulation feat than what Vader has been shown to be capable of.

 

Now, regarding Revan’s feats.

 

Revan was extremely proficient in the use of Force Drain. He was able to use it to draw off the power of Malachor V from orbit and channel it during the Battle of Malachor V to turn the tide of battle in his favor and mentally dominate his Republic allies:

 

"Revan used the Trayus Academy to influence the battle above Malachor V, using its power to affect the tide of battle and corrupt others to the Sith. "

―Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic 2: The Sith Lords

 

"Revan is able to draw upon the dark side energies of the planet below and use it during the battle... Simultaneously, more and more Jedi, unable to ignore the power emanating from the planet below, become corrupted by its influence."

―Star Wars: Chronicles of the Old Republic

 

He was also responsible for the creation of the Sith Assassins who used a variant of drain when they were close to their prey.

 

"Established by Darth Revan and heavily utilized by Darth Sion, these surreptitious butchers specialize in practical models of Jedi execution."

―Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide

 

And Bane’s mastery of Drain Life was credited by the Sith Lord to Revan’s holocron:

 

"Drain Life: A delicate procedure that saps the life energy of another and funnels it directly into your own essence. It is extremely difficult to employ in combat and is derived from the teachings of Zelashiel the Blasphemer in the Holocron of Darth Revan."

―Darth Bane (Star Wars: Book of the Sith)

 

Additionally, Revan was able to resist the draining and corruption effects of the Star Forge, which was a cause for the downfall of the Rakata and was uncontrollable by nearly all who attempted to resist it:

 

"There is no one left with the power to control the Forge, though many have tried. I have watched them be devoured, their life drained from them as they attempt to tap into its power. Knowing what we do of the Builders and their fate, I'm convinced that Revan did not intend us to keep the Star Forge - to use it would mean the end of the Sith... the end of the Force."

―Bastila Shan (Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic 2: The Sith Lords)

 

Revan was also capable of teleportation, which he employed on the Foundry and on Yavin IV.

 

I believe Revan is superior to Vader in the category of Alter for several reasons. He possesses superior telekinetic abilities in displays against Force users, his mental manipulation abilities are far superior, and he has a mastery of Alter abilities that Vader has yet to even touch. All of the reasons listed for Revan’s superiority over Kun and Starkiller, I feel, apply to Vader as well. Revan is simply a greater master of the Force, and has demonstrated superiority in several areas that is enough for me to think Revan is the most powerful member of the group.

 

 

Now, before I close out I would like to address particular arguments presented for Exar Kun, since people seem to be pushing for him most and I would rather Revan or Vader be placed in the open spot over Kun. So let’s get right in there, yeah?

 

Exar Kun was compared to Palpatine

 

 

I’m not too keen on this idea. I don’t like it one bit. It’s not the accolade itself that bothers me, no no, it’s the fact that it is being blown out of proportion. I’ll start with the quote itself:

 

There in front of him, starkly visible against the blackness of space, he could see the faint images of Emperor Palpatine and Exar Kun, two of the greatest focal points of the dark side he’d ever had to face. They were standing there before him, gazing back at him. And laughing.
—Specter of the Past

 

Firstly, context is important:

 

"Yeah, I see them," Han said tightly. "Okay. What do you want to do?" Luke looked out at the incoming pirates, a sudden tightening sensation in his stomach. There were many options, of course. He could reach out with the Force and damage the ships' control surfaces, crippling them. He might even be able to wrench off whole hull plates or deform the weapons emplacements, tearing them apart with the Force alone. Or he could simply reach inside to the crews' minds, turning them into helpless observers or even forcing them to surrender. For a Jedi Master with the Force as his ally, there were no limits. No limits at all.

 

And then, abruptly, he stiffened, his breath seeming to freeze in his throat. There in front of him, starkly visible against the blackness of space, he could see the faint images of Emperor Palpatine and Exar Kun, two of the greatest focal points of the dark side he'd ever had to face. They were standing there before him, gazing back at him.

 

And laughing.

—Specter of the Past

 

These were illusions of Luke’s past foes, his greatest and darkest foes. Of course Vader wouldn’t appear here. Luke considers his father of being of Light after redeeming him. It simply wouldn’t apply to Vader in Luke’s mind. Additionally, it doesn’t apply to Revan or Starkiller either for the obvious reason that Luke never encountered them. It’s an unreliable quote at best.

 

 

Essence Transfer

 

Kun and Revan both possess this ability. They were both able to sunder their spirits from their bodies and transcend the physical plane. But I think the method to which they achieved this transcendence is important and certainly telling.

 

Exar Kun was only able to achieve the ability to transfer his essence through ritual, and through the sacrifice of thousands.

 

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11111/111114474/4292486-drain+ritual5.jpg

 

Unlike Exar Kun, Revan was able to achieve this existence by himself. He was able to manifest as a spirit without the aid of rituals and extensive preparation. If the argument is presented that Exar Kun used the Massassi sacrifices to empower his spirit so that it might affect the mortal realm, then I would say that Revan didn’t require this either. Revan’s spirit was able to affect objects and people without the need to be empowered by Massassi sacrifices.

 

Once again, Revan displays superiority to Exar Kun in another area.

 

Before I stop here, I will elaborate on some of Revan’s most impressive displays. First being his victory over Malak on the Star Forge.

 

To set the stage, Malak was drawing off of the power of the Star Forge, and had pushed it to its greatest limits. He was drawing on massive amounts of power to use against Revan, yet Revan was still victorious. To make it clear the hype around this is staggering. The power behind the original Sith (Muur, Ajunta, etc) was a single Star Map on Korriban, and it was a power they could barely control. Malak was able to resist the draining effect of the Forge and control its massive power, something the Ancient Sith and the Rakata would be unable to do. Despite the massive amounts of power flowing through one of the most powerful Sith Lords of all time, Revan was still able to achieve victory after fighting through an army of droids, soldiers, and master duelists. This feat is easily one of Revan’s greatest, if not the greatest. He bested an extremely powerful Sith Lord wielding the power of one of the most power centers of dark side energy in galactic history, all while suffering negatively from the nexus and being exhausted from fighting for over an hour. Then there’s also the Jedi that Malak drained of energy to sustain himself.

 

Revan’s ability to fight through whole armies and then defeat a being of this level of hype and power is easily one of Revan’s greatest feats and is alone demonstration enough of his extreme strength in the Force (as Drew Karpyshyn considers Malak the superior duelist). Even more evidence for my case is the fact that Revan would continue to increase in power after this.

 

And finally, some discussion on Revan’s displays in Shadow of Revan.

 

 

To start off, Revan was not amped for the totality of the events in the expansion. While he was amped during the Temple of Sacrifice battle, he was not amped during his fight with the Coalition. Let’s look at the facts.

 

There are several factors involved in Revan’s fight with the Coalition. Notably we have his usage of the Light Side powers. As I’ve noted several times before, Revan employs the light side during the battle, so it is obvious that he is not able to draw upon his full strength on the nexus, which would weaken his ability to draw on the light. Additionally, Revan’s split is psychological given that Revan still employs the light. I’ve outlined this previously, so no need for detail right now.

 

Anyway, the events of the Temple of Sacrifice Battle have an impact on Revan’s ability in the Forgotten Terrace battle. In the fight Revan suffered the backlash of an attack that would wipe out all life in a 1km radius, had his Force essence damaged, and was obviously engaged in a prolonged battle with some of the greatest warriors in the galaxy. Quotes:

 

"Through masterful control of the Force, Revan has created a Force resonance with The Machine's core, and is channeling its power into an immense attack."

―Star Wars: The Old Republic

 

Suffered a powerful backlash while channeling an immense amount of force energy. Stunned and unable to act.

—Star Wars: The Old Republic

 

"The Machine Core has been rendered critically unstable. It is now a violent maelstrom of twisted force essence, indiscriminately stripping the life force from everything in the vicinity."

―Star Wars: The Old Republic

 

So there are obvious circumstances to the battle with the Coalition. While one can argue that Revan could heal from the first blast, the second one is unlikely to be something one can recover from so easily. Additionally, it is also unlikely that there was much time between the two fights. Marr makes it very clear that the Coalition needed to move quickly to keep Revan from escaping. There is very little time between the two fights.

 

Now, one final point I feel I should respond to is Beni’s idea that this is a ritual.

 

Firstly, what Sith ritual requires the use of Force Whirlwind and standard TK? The powers being used here are very pedestrian. If Revan could whip out rituals off the cuff why wouldn’t he use something more devastating? Secondly, absolutely no Sith ritual is going to make use of light side powers. It’s obvious based on the powers applied and the energy used that it’s not a ritual.

 

 

Essentially, I believe Revan is more powerful than his peers here due to his immense mastery of the Force, his incredible feats, and his altogether superior displays of power against Force users. Revan displays superiority where it matters, and his superiority in that regard is very clear in my eyes.

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tunewalker

tunewalker

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Posted

As usual some of what we are seeing here has heavy use of game mechanics, specifically boss fights and raid mechanics, Raid Mechanics which are specifically designed with 8 people in mind, using multiple phases and stuff that "looks cool", but is in no way should be considered indicative of how powerful the person was or what they were capable of, especially when there is a means to bypass doing the raid, and he doesnt use those tactics against the coalition (which is just as large)/ a lot of fight mechanics from the coalition again which was designed with the idea that 1 person does it with a bunch of mindless NPC's, both of which Revan still lost, and the Coalition while made up of 2 strong force users none of the rest have proven to be all that significant.

 

The best thing noted there and I must applaud is, as usual Revan's fair against Vitiate. Vitiate/ Valkorien is the "Emperor" of his time, the "Sidious" of his time if you will, and the way Revan faced him was as the RotJ Luke of his time, the power the 2 showed were relative to one another RotJ Sidious is to RotJ Luke as Vitiate is to Revan, even if we assume Revan got stronger, I still dont see it being anything beyond being the RotJ Luke of Valkorien, and if Valkorien is < Sidious, then by that extention Revan < RotJ Vader. Story wise it works, relative to what they faced it works, feats wise it works, it is just what makes the most sense.

 

The main hit is all the non-canon fight mechanics, fight mechanics, numbers... they arent canon material, anything that exists solely for gameplay is non-canon, and fight mechanics by definition usually exist solely for the party to HAVE a raid encounter with a big name attached. They could have called the boss Joe Capechi with his side kick protocol droid C-2DUM and the fight would have been designed the exact same way. They could then say Joe was a low class nobody and it wouldn't mean all of a sudden that every one that is a some one is stronger then Palpatine , the names mean something the dialog means something the mechanics do not, they never have.

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S_W_LeGenD

S_W_LeGenD

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Posted (edited)

As for Legend, you were asked where it was stated that he could possess the strongest Jedi. You gave this quote..

 

"From Star Wars: The Old Republic: Codex Entry titled "The Emperor's Fallen Jedi (Knight)."

 

The Emperor can wither and ruin even the strongest Jedi's connection to the light side.

 

Wither and ruin the strongest Jedi's connection to the light side =/= Mind control. Sidious did the very same thing to the entire Jedi order. He clouded the force itself making it difficult for even the strongest Jedi to fully connect to the light side of the force weakening the entire order. This is not the same as mind control. The above would be a good description of what Sidious did without it relating to mind control.

Interesting, never thought about it in this way.

 

I fully appreciate the fact that you do not dismiss revelations on the grounds of them challenging your perceptions, you find a way to accommodate them with rationalization. And this is important.

 

If we start dismissing official revelations then we aren't going to be objective in debates. We will be picking and choosing among revelations to promote our personal agendas which isn't sound.

 

Point is that Valkorion [can] negatively affect and/or ruin the Light Side alignment and/or attunement to the Force of even the strongest Jedi [insert rationalization about hows here]. We can safely assume that we are not aware of the full extent of Valkorion's capabilities since he spent centuries honing his talents in the Dark Side and he is [explicitly] stated to have explored the most sinister and uncharted depths of the Dark Side in the process.

 

I even provided examples in which it is clear that Valkorion doesn't necessarily goes all-out in the use of his telepathic powers. He is often careful in using them since he have history of destroying the minds of some Jedi with his telepathic powers.

Edited by S_W_LeGenD
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