The REAL Most Powerful Force Users - Rebooted

[Selenial]

No, I am saying that Exar Kun knows more about the Dark Side and Sith power than Vader did, as that quote states. It is interesting to note that Sidious discovered all this in Sadow's holocron, knowledge he considered too dangerous to use.

 

Not really seeing how this is relevant to a list about raw force power?

[LadyKulvax]

Not really seeing how this is relevant to a list about raw force power?

Knowledge is a very important factor in power, this measures Force Power on a whole not merely raw power. Him having greater mastery of the Dark Side is a telling statement.

[Beniboybling]

Knowledge is an indication of power, yes, but the relationship is not intrinsic. It implies power, it doesn't demand it.

 

I don't think we can put Kun above Vader on sheer knowledge alone, if it is not supported, there remains the possibility that Vader could surpass Kun with an inferior knowledge of the Force, through sheer raw power and potential.

This was of course retconned into the newer accolade, but only to accomodate Darth Sidious being the most powerful ever.

This would maintain a status of Exar Kun being more powerful than any Sith(including Vader) besides Darth Sidious and now of course Prime Vitiate.

 

There is my argument.

You're argument took a startling leap here, I assume you're not seriously suggesting Kun is more powerful than Krayt, Caedus, Plagueis etc. by interpreting that accolade out of pure conjecture, I assume I misread. Edited August 29, 2015 by Beniboybling

[LadyKulvax]

No it is not intrinsic, but such a strong degree of knowledge and mastery definitely requires a very high level of power to implement, which Kun did.

 

Furthermore my above argument would have Kun surpass Vader entirely.

[LadyKulvax]

You're argument took a startling leap here, I assume you're not seriously suggesting Kun is more powerful than Krayt, Caedus, Plagueis etc. by interpreting that accolade out of pure conjecture, I assume I misread.

 

No i am not arguing that, but clearly he is on or near their tier, remembering I am arguing Kun > Vader here, my point being that Kun certainly surpasses Vader by having such high accolades.

 

Basically, Kun being a potentially strong rival of Vitiate puts him on a higher tier to Vader.

 

Now I do have a feats argument I can make as well but I personally believe accolades are cleaner and much more definitive than interpretable feats.

Edited August 29, 2015 by LadyKulvax

[Beniboybling]

Basically, Kun being a potentially strong rival of Vitiate puts him on a higher tier to Vader.

 

Now I do have a feats argument I can make as well but I personally believe accolades are cleaner and much more definitive than interpretable feats.

I disagree, accolades are often contradictory, ambiguous, even outdated, and leave a great deal of room for interpretation. Case in point, I find this notion that Kun > pre-prime Vitiate unrealistic.

 

Less that 50 years after the death of Exar Kun, we have Vitiate to "utterly" dominating Revan and Malak with a fraction of his power, and in battle, reducing Revan to a smoldering heap with ease. Altogether described as an "almost godlike avatar of the dark side." This is beyond anything Kun has accomplished or is capable of.

 

Are we really to assume that after over a thousand years of study into the dark side, Vitiate only achieved the massive leap in power necessary to surpass Kun in a mere 50 year period?

 

I would think not considering only a hundred years into his existence, he had already surpassed all other Ancient Sith that had come before him, including Sadow and Ragnos. It just doesn't add up in terms of power progression. Heck, bear in mind that several centuries before the rise of Exar Kun, Vitiate annihilated the Dark Council in a flash of light.

 

Simply put, Exar Kun has utterly failed to demonstrate Vitiate levels of strength and mastery in the Force, which leaves me to believe that Vitiate's accolade retcons Exar Kun's since his introduction into mythos.

Edited August 29, 2015 by Beniboybling

[LadyKulvax]

Except both Revan and the Hero of Tython, have been capable of not just contending with Vitiate but killing him outright, he was more powerful but far from infallible in status. Furthermore, considering we know that Vitiate got considerably more powerful over time, it is far from difficult to believe that Kun far before Vitiate's confrontation with Revan could rival him in strength and be surpassed later.

 

To be honest, it's a far better logical inference than simply assuming a retcon, fortunately I am not here to dissuade you personally. On a brighter note it still stands that Exar Kun was much more powerful than Freedon Nadd whom was far more powerful than Naga Sadow, a superior to 'extremely powerful' Sith Lords such as Ragnos and Hord.

Edited August 29, 2015 by LadyKulvax

[Selenial]

You're putting way too much stock into a debatable and pretty unsound quote.

 

Unless you're willing to put Revan above Krayt because he along with Caedus and Sidious is labelled "the most powerful Sith"? Hell, let's put Revan above Caedus because Darth Revan isn't even his strongest incarnation.

[LadyKulvax]

You're putting way too much stock into a debatable and pretty unsound quote.

 

Unless you're willing to put Revan above Krayt because he along with Caedus and Sidious is labelled "the most powerful Sith"? Hell, let's put Revan above Caedus because Darth Revan isn't even his strongest incarnation.

 

Except that's a general list of powerful Sith, something not taken seriously when Malak is listed with Sidious in similar statements. My main argument is not based on that grade of logic nor am I even saying that Kun is a genuine equal for Vitiate, but the simple fact a strong argument can be made for it should dispell this idea that Kun is only on Vader's tier with his amulet. That's blatantly not the case given his accolades, which clearly put hims above that level.

Edited August 29, 2015 by LadyKulvax

[Beniboybling]

Revan couldn't defeat Vitiate and the Hero of Tython only managed when he was significantly weakened.

 

But this is besides the point, the point is that that after a mere 50 years, Vitiate was capable of feats beyond what Exar Kun is rationally capable of. And considering his power progression spans millenia it simply doesn't make sense for the Sith Emperor, or rather Revan, to go from being a match for him to being utterly obliterated by him.

 

Especially considering Vitiate, again, before Exar Kun, already has feats beyond his capabilities. Yes Vitiate is growing more powerful over time, but this would represent a steep increase in his learning curve, which if we assume to be the norm, would make, after 300 years, 6 times than timespan, on level with the Ones quite frankly.

 

Retcons in regards to most powerful accolades are not unheard of, heck Exar Kun's accolade has already been retconned. Fact is Kun's accolade was made when Vitiate didn't exist, now he does and he's been placed above him.

Edited August 29, 2015 by Beniboybling

[LadyKulvax]

Revan couldn't defeat Vitiate and the Hero of Tython only managed when he was significantly weakened.

 

But this is besides the point, the point is that that after a mere 50 years, Vitiate was capable of feats beyond what Exar Kun is rationally capable of. And considering his power progression spans millenia it simply doesn't make sense for the Sith Emperor, or rather Revan, to go from being a match for him to being utterly obliterated by him.

 

Especially considering Vitiate, again, before Exar Kun, already has feats beyond his capabilities. Yes Vitiate is growing more powerful over time, but this would represent a steep increase in his learning curve, which if we assume to be the norm, would make, after 300 years, 6 times than timespan, on level with the Ones quite frankly.

 

Retcons in regards to most powerful accolades are not unheard of, heck Exar Kun's accolade has already been retconned. Fact is Kun's accolade was made when Vitiate didn't exist, now he does and he's been placed above him.

 

Luckily my agenda isn't to actually place Kun on Vitiate tier, only to place him above Vader and the like.

[Beniboybling]

Honestly I'm not convinced considering the ambiguity of you're approach, but to entertain you're speculations.

 

Naga Sadow is said to be more powerful than the likes of Tulak Hord, who Khem Val believed Nox was a worthy successor to. Nox however I don't see advancing much beyond Dooku, who Vader as Anakin was far stronger than.

 

And considering that Hord too has received accolades referring to him as among the most powerful Sith in history etc. I can't imagine the disparity between Hord and Naga Sadow is at all considerable. Bearing in mind that Naga Sadow being the best of the Ancient Sith is the opinion of Uthar Wynn, and is actually contradicted by the objective claim that Marka Ragnos was "the most powerful of the most powerful", and indeed the fact that Sadow knelt before his ghost.

 

Altogether I think parity can be established between Hord and Sadow. Making Anakin potentially far stronger than Sadow as well. Which brings us on to Freedon Nadd, who has himself being described as "far more powerful" than Sadow and presumably by association, Hord, that brings him up to Anakin's level.

 

We know that Exar Kun surpassed Freedon Nadd, not by how much, but we know he surpassed him. But guess what? Vader surpassed Anakin as well, something that is stated by multiple sources:

Many years later, Obi-Wan and Darth Vader duel a second time. The Sith Lord is now more experienced and powerful.

 

--Taken from Beware The Sith

 

VADER COMPLETED HIS MEDITATION and opened his eyes. His pale, flame-savaged face stared back at him from out of the reflective black surface of his pressurized meditation chamber. Without the neural connection to his armor, he was conscious of the stumps of his legs, the ruin of his arm, the perpetual pain in his flesh. He welcomed it. Pain fed his hate, and hate fed his strength. Once, as a Jedi, he had meditated to find peace. Now he meditated to sharpen the edges of his anger.

 

He stared at his reflection a long time. His injuries had deformed his body, left it a ruin, but they’d perfected his spirit, strengthening his connection to the Force. Suffering had birthed insight.

--Taken from Lords Of The Sith

 

Lord Vader did not mind waiting, though, nor was even aware of it. For it was an honor, and a noble activity, to kneel at his ruler's feet. He kept his eyes inward, seeking reflection in his own bottomless core. His power was great, now, greater than it had ever been. It shimmered from within, and resonated with the waves of darkness that flowed from the Emperor. He felt engorged with this power, it surged like black fire, demon electrons looking for ground...but he would wait. For his Emperor was not ready; and his son was not ready, and the time was not yet. So he waited.

 

--Taken from Return of the Jedi novelisation

Altogether making speculative conclusions on Kun's accolades only makes him on level with Vader, not above him.

Edited October 23, 2015 by Beniboybling

[Beniboybling]

Now considering that we've looked at the accolades Kun has received, why not look at some of Vader's?

 

According to Darth Sidious, an expert on Sith history, Vader was the greatest Jedi killer in history:

 

Of all the monsters I have created, I still regard Darth Vader as something of a minor masterpiece. No, he was not an entirely alchemical creation, but he was my monster nevertheless. Even though he failed to live up to his full potential, there was much pleasure in transforming Anakin Skywalker from a bright-eyed, tousle-headed youth into the greatest Jedi killer of all time. Yes, he ultimately turned against his Master, as monsters sometimes do, but that was my fault, not his. Given the opportunity to create Vader again, I would, and with zeal.

 

--Taken from Jedi vs. Sith: The Essential Guide To The Force

Better than famed Jedi killers like Malgus, whose battlefield feats had supposedly never been replicated, better than Tulak Hord who conquered an army of Jedi 10,000 strong and indeed better than Kun.

 

Despite it being implied in the ROTS novelisation, that Vader's potential was stunted, Palpatine seemed to believe that Vader was still capable of acquiring it, and in that respect, perceived Vader as threat to him:

 

Somewhere in the back of Palpatine's mind, he knows what Vader's potential is. He feels he may be wrong, but he is wary of it. So he's very interested in determining his ability to manipulate Vader and testing his loyalty and assuring himself that this tiger that he holds by the tail is going to stay that way.

 

--Taken from Star Wars Insider 157

The potential of the Chosen One, which could have made Vader twice as powerful as Sidious.

 

Vader is described as having being among the most powerful Sith in history, in that respect a peer to Exar Kun and many of the other ancient Sith Lords:

 

From a slave on Tatooine to one of the most powerful Sith Lords ever, Anakin Skywalker's rise to power was as astonishing as it was tragic.

 

--Taken from Star Wars: Force Collection

Vader's mere presence was enough to incite dread in those who beheld him:

When his subjects forgot who ruled the Empire, the Emperor sent Darth Vader to remind them. His mere presence inspired dread; his visage inspired terror. Few could stand in his presence and not feel the terrible emanations of his power.

 

--Taken from Darkside Sourcebook

The likes of Karness Muur, an ancient Sith who had not only experienced the power of his era, but born witness to the many millenia that followed, was impressed by Vader's power where he mocked that of pre-prime Krayt's:

"This one's strong, Celeste Morne...and willing. He deserves the talisman"

 

--Taken from Star Wars: Dark Times 12: Vector, Part 6

Noting that Krayt before his prime matched Kun's abilities in many respects.

 

Vader was considered equal to some of the most powerful of Jedi, that includes the likes of Yoda, Odan-Urr, Thon, Revan and the myriad of other extremely powerful Force users who have received such praise, in their primes:

 

Of course, it might easily have disappeared in one of the white-hot lava rivers . . . but was it really just a coincidence that Darth Vader, encased in a life-support suit and demonstrating a mastery of the Force supposedly only attained by the most powerful of Jedi, had become the Emperor's new favorite immediately after Skywalker left the scene?

 

--Taken from Death Star

Jax Pavan, a former member of the Jedi Order, believe Vader more powerful than anyone he had ever known. Bearing in mind that Pavan would have at least have known of Master Yoda, if not bore witness to him:

No, Jax didn’t know what Darth Vader was capable of. Aboard the dying Far Ranger he thought he had seen him fail to manipulate Thi Xon Yimmon’s mind and have to settle, instead, for manipulating gravity. Still …

 

“I’ve never known a Force-user as powerful as Vader,” he admitted.

 

--Taken from The Last Jedi

Altogether I think Vader stacks up pretty well to Kun when it comes to accolades, his power is clearly legendary.

Edited August 29, 2015 by Beniboybling

[S_W_LeGenD]

I explained why pretty clearly in my analysis:

 

However the act of retaining spiritual form millenia after death is not unprecedented, and replicated by countless other lesser Sith Lords, nor is the ability to act on the enviroment, especially in the presence of a dark side nexus and focal point of dark energy. Kallig and Andru for example ragdolled Nox, and many in the Temple were possessed and manipulated by other Dark Lords. Vader possesses the strength to replicate these feats.

 

And in so far, you've failed to prove why Essence Transfer is proof of Kun's superiority.

You are confusing Essence Transfer with the ability to retain identity after corporeal death (disembodied existence). Essence Transfer refers to shifting essence into another host. A disembodied being can perform Essence Transfer but it is important to understand the difference between these two phenomenon.

 

Essence Transfer is one of the most difficult and risky actions to perform by all accounts. Should it fail, the attemptee risks permanent demise. Few individuals are officially confirmed to have acquired this talent and even fewer have performed it successfully. You don't have valid grounds for dismissing the importance of this talent and its significance.

 

As long as you can prove such an attack would be effective against Vader.

Exar Kun have tanked a Sever Force attempt from one of his opponents and this counts in his favor. Vader is untested in this aspect.

 

And Vader has deflected the firepower of scores of shooters:

 

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11115/111155790/3915082-9273046058-33627.jpg

 

And tanked the explosive the explosion of a massive weapons factory, the largest in the galaxy at the time:

 

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11115/111155790/4644184-star+wars+%282015-%29+003-016.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11115/111155790/4644183-star+wars+%282015-%29+003-015.jpg

Fair enough.

 

And that's proof of superiority because? Quality not quantity is what is important.

Quantity can be overlooked in assessing actions affiliated with a single talent (or spectrum of related talents) but this logic doesn't holds for assessing actions affiliated with distinct talents. For explanation purpose, consider telekinetic showings; the action of telekinetically lifting a chair may not showcase much in respect to evaluation of power of a character but the action of telekinetically lifting a large vehicle is a feat worth considering. Among these telekinetic showings, we can afford to overlook the chair-lifting feat because of its insignificance.

 

However, if character (A) have possessed other individual and character (B) does not have a comparable showing or demonstration of the same talent and is neither implied to have knowledge of this talent, then character (A) have both qualitative and quantitative edge in this context. It would be unwise to overlook feats of distinct talents of character (A) in an evaluation based on spectrums such as yours.

 

It's impressive enough, but I don't think it's definite proof of superiority.

I would seek second opinion about this matter, in your place.

 

Doesn't change the fact that Anakin clearly dominated him.

This wasn't my point of contention.

 

And considering Yoda is capable of much more than is shown, it's obvious he was holding back. Yoda has been regarded as just as powerful as Darth Sidious, who could Force choke Dooku over holocam, Dooku is no match.

I also assume (at personal capacity) that Yoda was holding back, but those official statements (cited by me) do not validate this assumption. Those statements explicitly assert that Count Dooku and Yoda fought each other and neither was able to gain advantage in an exchange of Force powers.

 

So what exactly is my point? Interpretations. Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith (novelization) may give the impression that Anakin Skywalker utterly tooled Dooku but other sources may not. Even the film itself doesn't gives the impression that Skywalker utterly tooled Dooku. We don't see Skywalker ragdolling Dooku around or choking him into submission like Darth Sidious with his Force powers. It is true that Skywalker outdueled Dooku, but how this victory is perceived (stomp or hard-earned), is a matter of interpretation and perception of different people and authors. Honestly, Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith (novelization) is filled with hyperbolic interpretations of stuff and people and I don't treat it as gospel when I have other sources to draw information from.

 

Skywalker became more powerful then Dooku (officially and logically) but I don't think that this gap is significant like between Sidious and Dooku. Skywalker (as Darth Vader) is powerful but he is not on the level of Sidious or even close.

 

And that's what happens when you engage in confirmation bias, thanks for the demonstration.

This is red-herring. See my explanation above.

+

Don't speak of bias in these debates when you openly display it in your assessments.

 

Are you suggesting that Kenobi is Vader's match when it comes to Force abilities?

 

Because that's the only way I could see you're point being relevant.

Didn't Obi-Wan Kenobi counter Vader's attempt to Force push him during the course of their confrontation?

 

Contrary to popular belief, Kenobi's Force abilities should not be underestimated. As an example, Kenobi sent General Grievous packing across the hall with a Force push. In contrast, Kit Fisto also attempted the same on Grievous but his showing is really underwhelming.

 

And why are you ignoring that Anakin was described as being mentally unhinged and that Kenobi, after years of sparring, could predict his every move?

Vader, being mentally compromised, in this contest, isn't a widely endorsed theory at official capacity. In-fact, this theory is contradicted. For example:

 

 

Taken from Star Wars: The Ultimate Visual Guide

 

As every step becomes more perilous and Vader's attacks more ferocious, Obi-Wan realizes that he still cares for Anakin, and that the only way he can defeat his opponent is to let go of his feelings for his former friend. When Obi-Wan releases this emotional attachment, the battle turns for the Jedi.

 

 

In addition, based on depictions in the Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith (film), Skywalker was behaving like a Sith; using his emotions (hate, rage or anger) to fuel his power and guide his actions. This is exactly what a Sith Lord is expected to do.

 

In the nutshell, Vader's superiority over Dooku and even Kenobi can be argued and/or established but the assumption that Vader utterly eclipses these two is false. Vader certainly have superior individualistic showings then both but he haven't been depicted ragdolling them [1 on 1] with his Force powers in any confrontation to reinforce the notion that he utterly eclipses them in power. Remember Vader vs. Kenobi on Death Star? If I am not wrong, Vader was more powerful then ever before at this point. Yet, we don't see Vader ragdolling Kenobi around or choking him into submission.

 

It's not an assumption, it's a stated fact. His feats speaking for themselves, they are beyond Anakin and indeed Dooku.

See above.

 

I was referring to my points on the Force Blast.

OK.

 

Call it whatever you like, Vader can still project fear into the minds of his troops:

 

 

But the Force, of course, was quite real—and the black tentacles of its dark side had hardened Palpatine and his new pupil, Darth Vader, into evil incarnate. They shared its horrible energies, and used them to fill the minds of their subservient military minions with fear.

 

--Taken from Technical Journal Of The Imperial Forces

 

 

And for the record, Battle Meditation is telepathy.

Projecting fear into other individuals may give the vibe of being an act of Battle Meditation but it is not officially identified as the same technique. It is more precisely Affect Mind.

 

In the respect that they prove Kun more powerful than Vader? No.

Member LadyKulvax have covered this part.

 

You mean broader, broader =/= superior. Again quality over quantity, try to understand the concept.

See above.

 

You read my blog, yes? Spirit feats are not applicable to their corporeal forms for many reasons, on top of the fact that Kun is described as learning many new powers and broadening his mastery over the Force in this period.

Yes, I have read your blog, and noticed some loopholes in it as well. I made an effort to address some loopholes in the comments section but you were not willing to entertain points that contradicted your views. If spirits are all-powerful as you assert, why didn't Yoda eliminate Sidious after becoming one? Why didn't Meetra Surik free Revan from his prison after becoming one?

 

Sith spirits exist in the meta-physical realm against the will of the Force as disembodied beings or entities and therefore attempt to find ways to cling to this realm through different means if they can; their purpose is to cheat death in any manner possible. Otherwise, they risk being pulled back into the void or becoming one with the Force. This inherent struggle imposes limitations on their capabilities.

 

Consider the example of Kun:

 

 

From The Jedi Academy Sourcebook

 

Exar Kun passed the millennia in uneasy slumber. For a moment, and only for a moment, he was roused partially from his stupor by the bright presence of a man strong in the Force. Slowly extending feelers in the direction of the mysterious man, Kun discovered that one of his great temples was inhabited by a small band of armed humans. But before he could gather enough strength to reach out to tap this energy source, the Force-user and his fellows departed, and Kun again lapsed into sleep.

 

A few scant years later, Kun is brought sharply awake by the arrival of not one or two, but a dozen humans blazing with the power he needed to live again. Eagerly but cautiously, Kun observes each arrival, probing for weaknesses and the power he needs to restore his lost reserves of energy. For a time, he is able to subside by feeding on their residual energy, but soon he will need worshipers if he is to grow more active. With a nucleus of followers to provide him energy-providing anger and fear, Kun will have enough power to escape his exile and take human form.

 

To his surprise, Kun recognized the leader to be the same man who had visited Yavin Four years earlier, now much more powerful in the Force. Too powerful, for the moment, for Kun to tackle.

 

Kun finds Gantoris, strong-willed and impatient to learn, to be a more promising first candidate. He easily seduces Gantoris in the same manner that Nadd had seduced him - by promising forbidden knowledge and the truly powerful Jedi secrets Gantoris cannot wait to learn.

 

Carefully building up and feeding on the anger of his first apprentice, Kun grows in power. Soon he feels confident to make an attempt to subvert Luke, knowing that if he can sway the teacher, the students will all follow. Kun, posing as Anakin Skywalker, appears to Luke and attempts to pull him toward the forbidden Sith teachings by tempting him to seize control of the New Republic and destroy the Empire. Realizing that this shade is not that of his father, Luke rejects the offer.

 

Enraged and drained, Kun returns to Gantoris. Desperate for more energy, he goads Gantoris to new heights of anger by showing him the Eol Sha colonists dying on Dantooine. Gantoris is pushed too far, however, and turns on his Sith master. Realizing that Gantoris is no longer his, Kun utterly drains him to provide himself a reserve of energy to last until he can subvert more students.

 

 

Kun, as a disembodied being, was dependent upon external sources for power, to perform advanced actions. Essentially this:

 

Exar Kun himself possessed a great many other dark powers that he was unable to harness without the energy he needed to fuel his disembodied will. (Taken from The Jedi Academy Sourcebook)

 

Kun had mastered many Force powers but he was restricted in his ability to use them without the raw power of a Force-sensitive corporeal body. This is why he wanted to acquire a Force-sensitive body for himself after loosing his original. He found an opportunity when he managed to defeat Luke Skywalker with aid of Kyp Durron. He attempted to transfer his essence into comatose Skywalker but this effort was thwarted by the Jedi Master's students.

 

Now consider the example of Vitiate:

 

“The scores of dead have nourished me. I am awakened. And I bring with me--death!”

 

Vitiate, in disembodied form, was extremely weak while residing in his sanctuary on Yavin Four. However, he siphoned energy from external developments (e.g. war between Revanites and temporarily formed coalition of Republic and Empire) on this planet and was able to recover his strength. Later:

 

Unleashed from his sanctuary on Yavin 4, the former Sith Emperor has now struck the Imperial world of Ziost. Using his immense power in the dark side of the Force, he has dominated the minds of the planet’s Imperial troops--as well as an elite cadre of militaristic Jedi--and has set them against the populace, engaging in a bloody slaughter. (From Star Wars: The Old Republic: Rise of the Emperor)

 

---

 

In each case, the character in disembodied form was originally weak, and dependent upon external sources to acquire sufficient raw power to perform advanced actions that were possible with original body otherwise. Even Darth Sidious was restricted in his ability to use the Force as a disembodied being, he had to transfer his essence into a host to acquire sufficient raw power to perform advanced actions.

 

I honestly don't care unless you can explain in a clear and detailed manner why that is the case.

 

In the respect that it's problematic for you're ability to overhype you're favourite characters? Yes, I imagine it is.

See above.

Edited August 29, 2015 by S_W_LeGenD

[cs_zoltan]

I'll wait for the tl;dr version.

[Beniboybling]

You are confusing Essence Transfer with the ability to retain identity after corporeal death (disembodied existence). Essence Transfer refers to shifting essence into another host. A disembodied being can perform Essence Transfer but it is important to understand the difference between these two phenomenon.

 

Essence Transfer is one of the most difficult and risky actions to perform by all accounts. Should it fail, the attemptee is permanently destroyed. Few individuals are officially confirmed to have acquired this talent and even fewer have performed it successfully. You don't have valid grounds for dismissing the importance of this talent and its significance.

My bad, but in regards to that I also explained why pretty clearly in my analysis, seriously, read it:

 

Exar Kun's mastery over his spirit is profound, but not unprecedented, and ritual assisted. Kun was only capable of transforming into a potent spirit through the borrowed strength of thousands of Massassi, it is impressive however that despite his powers being depleted, he was still able to interact potently with the physical world.

 

Bearing in mind that even Set Harth mastered and used Essence Transfer. I'm sure Vader could manage.

Exar Kun have tanked a Sever Force attempt from one of his opponents and this counts in his favor. Vader is untested in this aspect.

Which is why you can't make assumptions as to his capability to do so.

 

Unless you can prove Odan-Urr could effect/sever Vader, it's a moot point. And considering Vader has been considered a match for the "most powerful of Jedi", and Odan-Urr is past his prime, that seems very unlikely.

Quantity can be overlooked in assessing actions affiliated with a single talent (or spectrum of related talents) but this logic doesn't holds for assessing actions affiliated with distinct talents. For explanation purpose, consider telekinetic showings; the action of telekinetically lifting a chair may not showcase much in respect to evaluation of power of a character but the action of telekinetically lifting a large vehicle is a feat worth considering. Among these telekinetic showings, we can afford to overlook the chair-lifting feat because of its insignificance.

 

However, if character (A) have possessed other individual and character (B) does not have a comparable showing or demonstration of the same talent and is neither implied to have knowledge of this talent, then character (A) have both qualitative and quantitative edge in this context. It would be unwise to overlook feats of distinct talents of character (A) in an evaluation based on spectrums such as yours.

Uh huh right. Fact is Vader has matched Exar Kun pound for pound in every power they share ability in, and you've failed to prove why the abilities Vader hasn't mastered i.e. Essence Transfer, and the abilities Vader is completely untested in, i.e. resistance to Sever Force, are proof of Kun's superiority.

I would seek second opinion about this matter, in your place.

I can vouch for several.

This wasn't my point of contention.

Well that's good, because that was point I was making. Anakin dominated Dooku as a Force user, proving he was significantly more powerful than him. It's therefore logical to assume that upon becoming considerably more powerful as Vader, he would go on to eclipse Dooku's abilities entirely.

I also assume (at personal capacity) that Yoda was holding back, but those official statements (cited by me) do not validate this assumption. Those official statements explicitly imply that Count Dooku and Yoda fought each other and neither was able to gain edge in an exchange of Force powers.

And because they are contradicted by a myriad of others sources, they are inaccurate.

 

Need I remind you that Yoda didn't launch a single Force-based attack in that engagement? All he did was neutralise Dooku's offense, so the claim that Yoda attempted to defeat him with the Force, is simply untrue in the first place. Noting that the more reliable source, the Complete Star Wars Encylopedia, as opposed to the kids book, only claims neither bested one another, that is true, but it doesn't mean that Yoda could not.

So what exactly is my point? Interpretations. Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith (novelization) may give the impression that Anakin Skywalker utterly tooled Dooku but other sources may not. Even the film itself doesn't gives the impression that Skywalker utterly tooled Dooku. We don't see Skywalker ragdolling Dooku around with his Force powers or choking him into submission like Sidious. It is true that Skywalker outdueled Dooku, but how this victory is perceived (stomp or hard-earned), is a matter of interpretation and perception of different people and authors. Honestly, Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith (novelization) is filled with hyperbolic interpretations of stuff and people and I don't treat it as gospel when I have other sources to draw information from.

I disagree, from the moment Anakin opens the floodgates Dooku is clearly being overwhelmed:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYT3ctPuVRw&t=2m21s

 

And is defeated in a little over 10 seconds. I'm at a loss as to what you gibberish about ragdolling Dooku is when that doesn't even happen in the novel, and isn't implied to be within Anakin's capabilities by any source.

 

If you can provide one source that doesn't describe the fight as a stomp, by all means provide it. By bringing up inaccurate sources of a different engagement, that's contradict by just about everything else, is hardly compelling.

Skywalker may have become more powerful then Dooku (officially and logically) but I don't think that this gap is significant like between Darth Sidious and Dooku. Skywalker (as Darth Vader) is powerful but he is not on the level of Sidious or even close.

I never said it was. You don't need to be Sidious level to be significantly stronger than Dooku.

 

Although I find it ironic that you're evidence to the contrary is that he was a match for Yoda, despite Yoda being an equal of Sidious who you accept eclipses him. I think I'll call you out on you're hypocrisy.

This is red-herring. See my explanation above.

You're focusing on a single source that implies parity between Dooku and Yoda, and ignoring all other sources that show the contrary, and you've completely ignored the fact that Yoda is stated to be Sidious equal, an individual who was capable of ragdolling him with ease. You are engaging in confirmation bias.

Don't speak of bias in these debates when you openly display it in your assessments.

Disagreeing with you're often outlandish opinions is not biased, learn to tell the difference.

Didn't Obi-Wan Kenobi counter Vader's attempt to Force push him during the course of their confrontation?

He did, but he was also ragdolled by the man who Anakin easily defeated. And countering a Force push in this manner has never been depicted in another source, we have no grounds for assuming this is what parity looks like. Kenobi was evidently far from Anakin's equal, but it appears it's not necessary to be to pull off this feat.

Vader, being mentally compromised, in this contest, isn't a widely endorsed theory at official capacity.

It's not a theory, it's a fact:

Anakin had still been between worlds then, and vulnerable.

 

--Taken from Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader

For example:

 

 

Taken from Star Wars: The Ultimate Visual Guide

 

As every step becomes more perilous and Vader's attacks more ferocious, Obi-Wan realizes that he still cares for Anakin, and that the only way he can defeat his opponent is to let go of his feelings for his former friend. When Obi-Wan releases this emotional attachment, the battle turns for the Jedi.

I'm failing to see what this is supposed to prove.

In addition, based on depictions in the Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith (film), Skywalker was behaving like a Sith; using his emotions (hate, rage or anger) to fuel his power and guide his actions. This is exactly what a Sith Lord is expected to do.

Emotions that Anakin had yet to get a hold off, making him as stated, vulnerable.

 

You're also ignoring the fact that Kenobi knew Vader's every move.

In the nutshell, Vader's superiority over Dooku and even Kenobi can be argued or established but the assumption that Vader utterly eclipses these two is false. Vader certainly have superior individualistic showings then both but he isn't depicted ragdolling them [1 on 1] in any confrontation to reinforce the notion that he utterly eclipses them in power.

If we cherry pick select sources and ignore the rest? Yes.

 

But in reality as a Force wielder it's quite obvious he is far more powerful than either of them. You're focus on ragdolling is irrelevant and inconsequential to the point, especially considering Vader has never faced Dooku. Though I'd point out that if Dooku can ragdoll Kenobi, or course Vader can.

Projecting fear into other individuals may give the vibe of being an act of Battle Meditation but it is not officially identified as the same technique. It is more precisely Affect Mind.

Again, what you call it is besides the point, it's a red herring.

Member LadyKulvax have covered this part.

And I addressed it, thoroughly.

Yes, I have read your blog, and noticed some loopholes in it as well. I made an effort to address some loopholes in the comments section but you were not willing to entertain points that contradicted your views.

You mean I countered you're arguments, and you we're unable to rebutt my points.

If spirits are all-powerful as you assert, why didn't Yoda eliminate Sidious after becoming one? Why didn't Meetra Surik free Revan from his prison after becoming one?

I don't recall claiming spirits to be all powerful, I recall claiming they had an unlimited ability to channel the Force, but of course they are restricted by how much Force energy they have avaliable to channel, in the first place. I also thoroughly covered why Jedi spirits tend not to effect the physical world in profound ways.

 

Perhaps you'd benefit from reading my blog again.

In each case, the character in disembodied form was originally weak, and dependent upon external sources to acquire sufficient raw power to perform advanced actions. Even Darth Sidious was restricted in his ability to use the Force as a disembodied being, he had to transfer his essence into a host to acquire sufficient raw power to perform advanced actions.

For starters this doesn't change the fact that the following remain true:

 

 

1. They have an unlimited ability to channel the Force without damage to their non-existent bodies, allowing for massive and instant explosions of power that might otherwise injure them.
    
    
   
2. The amount of energy they are capable of channeling is equally limitless, meaning they could potentially become more powerful than what they were in live without concern for their bodies being sufficient vessels.
    
    
   
3. Their unbound nature makes them much more potent in the fields of mental domination and possession, as opposed to reaching out, they can swallow up their targets with the entirety of their being.
   

 

So what does it mean? Well it means that we shouldn’t assume that the corporeal and non-corporeal versions of an individual will be the same, if even comparable, in terms of their abilities. Nor should we assume a corporeal being capable of its non-corporeal feats, and therefore should be wary of drawing comparisons between spirits and physical beings, without taking into account their intrinsic qualities.

 

--Taken from my blog on Understanding the Nature of Force Ghosts & Sith Spirits

 

Irrespective of the contexts of each and every Sith Spirit and Force Ghost, some of which you've raised, non-corporeal beings are intrinsically different in how they interact with the Force to corporeal beings. So it's always going to be at best, speculative, to assume that a corporeal being is capable of what they were as a spirit. It's for these reasons that we think it preferable to omit them entirely, and have them stand on the merits of their corporeal feats.

 

And frankly if they are incapable of doing that, it suggests a disparity between their physical and spirit forms exist. Nonetheless I'd like to address a few inaccuracies with you're claims that Vitiate and Exar Kun where weakened.

 

In regards to Exar Kun, yes he was initially weak, but he grew powerful on Skywalker's students. Kyp specifically, who not only restored Exar Kun's power, but had his strength augmented by Kun's own:

Over a number of weeks, Kun slowly bends Kyp to his will, and begins to augment his power. He grows very powerful on Kyp's hate, and soon his hold on Kyp is so complete that he can send Kyp beyond the planet to do his will and still retain control over his subject. Ultimately, he has Kyp return to Yavin Four and helps him reclaim the Sun Crusher. He also bolsters Kyp's talents to allow him to defeat Luke and place him in a coma.

 

--Taken from Jedi Academy Sourcebook

And in fact, most of the feats Exar Kun performs are done so through Kyp, Kyp being a prodigal Force user:

Back on the Rebel base on Coruscant, Luke Skywalker tested Kyp's Jedi power potential. What he discovered was the strongest presence he had known since his Masters Obi-Wan and Yoda.

 

--Taken from The Essential Guide to Characters

 

He thought about those he had trained: Kyp, so intense and so frighteningly powerful.

 

--Taken from Planet of Twilight

 

Of course, my best was nothing compared to Kyp Durron's best. Kyp's growth in the Force was nothing shy of incredible. In just over a week he surpassed anything the rest of us where doing by light-years. Master Skywalker didn't know what to do with him, he was so good.

 

--Taken from I, Jedi

I'm not about to consider spirit feats featuring Kun at full strength and amped by a very powerful individual.

 

And in regards to Vitiate, really his weakness is irrelevant. As you yourself state he was initially weakened after being defeated by the Hero of Tython, but I'd remind you have an entire year to recover his lost strength on one of the most powerful dark side nexuses in the galaxy, within a Sith Temple, that focused those dark side energies.

 

Fact is though Vitiate doesn't really do anything until he's restored himself to full power. So again, I am not about to consider the feats of spirit at full strength, let alone when performed on a potent nexus, within a focal point of power.

Edited August 29, 2015 by Beniboybling

[Aurbere]

If my Revan stuff gets buried under this argument, I'm holding you all accountable

[Beniboybling]

If my Revan stuff gets buried under this argument, I'm holding you all accountable

Don't worry Aurbere, I'll be sure to give your argument just as thorough a thrashing as Legend's.

[Aurbere]

Don't worry Aurbere, I'll be sure to give your argument just as thorough a thrashing as Legend's.

 

Taking advantage of an undefended post. How could you?

[Beniboybling]

Taking advantage of an undefended post. How could you?

I can see the future Aurbere, and I have my gif response ready.

[Aurbere]

I can see the future Aurbere, and I have my gif response ready.

 

 

Actually, I know why you're doing this. You think I'll come back if you contend with my flawless logic. You can't live without me.

[cs_zoltan]

https://imgflip.com/s/meme/Ill-Just-Wait-Here.jpg

[LadyKulvax]

Took me awhile but I have found what I was looking for:

 

As Exar Kun had his amulet, Darth Vader also had his own, the amulet of Lord Kaan placed inside the Mandalorian CrushGuantlet in Vader's right glove:

 

"No greater symbol of darkness was ever made than this glove -- the gauntlet that once covered Darth Vader’s right hand." - Kadann

 

Noting that it gave Azrakel so much power he could easily slaughter the Prophets of the Dark Side because of it. More impressively it would have partially restored the powers of reborn Darth Sidious.

Edited September 5, 2015 by LadyKulvax

[Beniboybling]

This list considers Legends & Canon material to be valid, including old post-ROTJ material and G-Canon statements. However Canon material specifically related to the portrayal of Force abilities takes precedence.

 

I'm going to assume that's been rendered non-canon, along with Trioculus and his hypnotic third eye.

Edited September 5, 2015 by Beniboybling

[LadyKulvax]

So we're dismissing that Vader has an amulet himself, something stated in numerous old and relatively new sources, but when it comes to Exar Kun we're dismissing all his alter feats as amplified because he has exactly the same thing?