The REAL Most Powerful Force Users - Rebooted

[Beniboybling]

As I posted 13 pages that was only because of the Sith spirits congregating and christening them.

Problem with that perspective is that they start glowing before the spirits christen them.

[cs_zoltan]

How about you prove Kun's does anything more than that? You've failed to make a single sourced argument that states he is amped constantly by his amulet. The one posted by Selenial is flawed and not even describing Kun's own.

 

I assume if there were a source that actually states what you say, you would've provided it by now. This evasive argument is very suspicious...

 

You know debating works like this: you make a claim, and prove it. You guys keep saying that it's only good for Force Blast yet not a single source was shown yet.

[LadyKulvax]

Except for the blatant fact that the only thing ever accredited to the amulet is channeling inner rage into blasts of energy or in Ulic's case lightning.

[LadyKulvax]

Problem with that perspective is that they start glowing before the spirits christen them.

 

Because they had come into contact with each other, fulfilling a prophecy which summoned Marka Ragnos and the others. It is right there in the omnibus which I own on Google Play Books.

[cs_zoltan]

He used the gauntlet to smash the senator's head: http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111114474/4249208-lifts+a+dude.png

[LadyKulvax]

That happens any time he gets angry, him getting angry equates to him generating energy which of course is going to effect an amulet precisely designed for that purpose. It isn't automatically a power boost to any feat he performs as you are assuming, rage is rage and Sith use it constantly.

 

I am perfectly fine with attributing Kun's Force Blasts to the amulet, I will not however sit by as people attempt to claim all of Kun's feats should be dismissed for a percieved amp from an amulet.

Edited August 28, 2015 by LadyKulvax

[Beniboybling]

Interesting find Zoltan, but I think what he was using it for was to dominate his mind. It does also imply that the amulet is only in use when it's glowing. And for the record, it does glow when Kun uses the Force blast, you can see that happening here, his hand glowing in the same colour we later see when they are both enveloped.

 

Anyway, looking at Ulic's amulet - which is supposed to be Kun's counterpart and presumably shares the same properties - could provide some insights into what Kun's is capable of:

 

Here Aleema implies that the amulet will make him generally stronger:

 

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111114474/4292417-sith+talisman.png

 

And here we see Ulic use the amulet for some kind of Force lightning attack:

 

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111114474/4292421-amulet+lightning.png

 

We do have the fact that they we're enveloped in mysterious empowering energies, but it's not actually stated what those energies can be used for, as they are apparently of the dark side I assume they are at the very least limited to dark side powers, but it could be that they are limited to Sith sorcery as well.

 

Interestingly though, Kun uses his gauntlet hand to kill Odan-Urr, though the crystal is not visible:

 

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111114474/4292536-resists+sever+force.png

 

Altogether, we know that the amulet(s) channel and magnify the subjects rage, we know that that rage can be converted into Force based attacks, and we know that the amulet glows when it is in use. Considering the range of attacks we know for sure it's been used for, from Force blasts, to Force lightning, to mental domination and possible to Force wound, I think its safe to assume that it can be applied to any form of offensive Alter power.

 

However I'm not seeing a precedent for Control or Sense, or a reason to assume it's in use when not glowing.

Edited August 28, 2015 by Beniboybling

[cs_zoltan]

And here we see Ulic use the amulet for some kind of Force lightning attack:

 

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111114474/4292417-sith+talisman.png

 

Nope, we don't

[Beniboybling]

Fixed.

[Rhyltran]

So you're asking me to prove the amulet isn't limited. That's a solid debating tactic there beni, asking someone to prove a negative. Hella impressive. Still, since I've shown it using another use, that's already done!

 

You need to prove the Amulet is limited only to force blasts, because nothing actually says that. Sure, there are quotes that say it allows him to use Force Blasts, but it doesn't stop there. Numerous other quotes show it being used for different things, and every time you come across one of those you can add it to your little list, telling me to find more, but I doubt you're convincing anyone.

 

And while I appreciate your argument regarding Kresh's gauntlet (amazing stretch, even for you, I was impressed.) since Haazen used it to eviscerate numerous Jedi at the same time with a blast of Lightning, you're wrong. Plain and simple.

 

No. You made the claim and the burden of proof is on the one who makes the claim. You claim it can be used for more and in fact claims it can be used for everything. You're going to be the one who will need to prove that. The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence.

 

You ask for him to prove that it's only limited to force blasts. That's not how debate works. You gave a description that talks about Sith Amulets in general but not specifically Exar Kun's amulet. He provided a description that talks specifically about Exar Kun's amulet. Now prove that it's identical to the norm.

 

Not trying to be hostile. I just genuinely want to see it and if it can be proven I'll concede to the point. Just as I did about the bombing run.

Edited August 28, 2015 by Rhyltran

[Selenial]

No. You made the claim and the burden of proof is on the one who makes the claim. You claim it can be used for more and in fact claims it can be used for everything. You're going to be the one who will need to prove that. The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence.

 

You ask for him to prove that it's only limited to force blasts. That's not how debate works. You gave a description that talks about Sith Amulets in general but not specifically Exar Kun's amulet. He provided a description that talks specifically about Exar Kun's amulet. Now prove that it's identical to the norm.

 

Not trying to be hostile. I just genuinely want to see it and if it can be proven I'll concede to the point. Just as I did about the bombing run.

 

Interesting post to make when Beni answered all your questions 2 hours prior

[cs_zoltan]

We've been listing evidences for 10 pages long, still haven't seen a single one for the contrary

[LadyKulvax]

Beni has provided plenty, which has gone ignored despite said evidence directly describing Exar Kun's personal amulet. The only evidence to the contrary is a generalised description of certain talismans, not pertaining to Kun's amulet. Make a case that actually compares characters so we can have a genuinely productive discussion, because this amulet amp debate has achieved nothing but take up 14 pages.

[cs_zoltan]

Beni has provided plenty, which has gone ignored despite said evidence directly describing Exar Kun's personal amulet. The only evidence to the contrary is a generalised description of certain talismans, not pertaining to Kun's amulet. Make a case that actually compares characters so we can have a genuinely productive discussion, because this amulet amp debate has achieved nothing but take up 14 pages.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=8009361&postcount=2329

[Beniboybling]

I'll restate my current thoughts on the matter:

 

Altogether, we know that the amulet(s) channel and magnify the subjects rage, we know that that rage can be converted into Force based attacks, and we know that the amulet glows when it is in use. Considering the range of attacks we know for sure it's been used for, from Force blasts, to Force lightning, to mental domination and possible to Force wound, I think its safe to assume that it can be applied to any form of offensive Alter power.

 

However I'm not seeing a precedent for Control or Sense, or a reason to assume it's in use when not glowing.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=8411785&postcount=4832

 

And I feel that conclusion has take into account all evidence raised, if something would like to dispute this be my guest. However at this stage I think it is something we can all agree with.

Edited August 28, 2015 by Beniboybling

[Selenial]

Agreed. I personally think that's enough to put him below Vader and Starkiller, tbh.

 

I'd put Revan in that list too if Aurbere's post ever showed up...

[Beniboybling]

I'd put Revan in that list too if Aurbere's post ever showed up...

I think I frightened him away.

 

Anyway I revised by previous analysis on Vader vs Exar Kun, do give it a read everyone:

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=8009361&postcount=2329

[Selenial]

Y'know, this list would be so much easier if TFU III came out. Apparently Vader was going to utterly trounce Starkiller and his rebel faction once broken out, and end up beating him overall.

 

He was likely supposed to be holding back in TFU II....

 

Shame it got canned

[Beniboybling]

Well there is always Vader Down. Edited August 28, 2015 by Beniboybling

[Jarons]

Y'know, this list would be so much easier if TFU III came out. Apparently Vader was going to utterly trounce Starkiller and his rebel faction once broken out, and end up beating him overall.

 

He was likely supposed to be holding back in TFU II....

 

Shame it got canned

I heard the opposite TFU III was supposed to take place between ESB and ROTJ.Where Starkillers Defeats Vader but then Sacrifice himself to save the Rebel Fleet.

[Beniboybling]

Y'know, this list would be so much easier if TFU III came out. Apparently Vader was going to utterly trounce Starkiller and his rebel faction once broken out, and end up beating him overall.

 

He was likely supposed to be holding back in TFU II....

 

Shame it got canned

I heard the opposite TFU III was supposed to take place between ESB and ROTJ.Where Starkillers Defeats Vader but then Sacrifice himself to save the Rebel Fleet.

Debate tbh.

[S_W_LeGenD]

Anyway I revised by previous analysis on Vader vs Exar Kun, do give it a read everyone:

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=8009361&postcount=2329

Control spectrum:

 

Assessment # 1 is fine.

 

Assessment # 2 is problematic.

 

Darth Vader didn't learn Essence Transfer so how come he is comparable to Exar Kun in this respect? It doesn't matters how many acquired this talent, point is that Vader is not among them and doesn't scores any points in this case. Vader's strength is irrelevant in this comparison.

 

Assessment # 3 is also problematic.

 

Exar Kun have tolerated firepower of a Republic fleet but what have Vader done to match this showing? I don't see any information concerning Vader in this comparison.

 

---

 

In the nutshell, your conclusion in this spectrum makes no sense. Exar Kun have decisive advantage in this spectrum unless you offer a better explanation of why you think Vader is holistically on par in this case.

 

Sense spectrum:

 

Assessment # 1 is fine.

 

No other showing from both in this category? If yes, then your conclusion for this spectrum is fine.

 

Alter spectrum:

 

Assessment # 1 is problematic.

 

How exactly Vader eclipses Count Dooku in raw power? Vader certainly became more powerful then Count Dooku but I don't see enormous disparity in the capabilities of both.

 

In addition, you assert that Vader can dominate or kill someone far stronger then Asajj Ventress with his Force powers but do not cite any example. You need to support your assumptions with examples or statements.

 

Assessment # 2 seems OK. But I advice revisiting it.

 

Assessment # 3 is not satisfactory. I don't recall Vader being a master of Battle Meditation or even learning it.

 

---

 

You don't seem to consider information outside these 3 spectrums to evaluate characters. Why is this? Their are other ways to power-scale characters.

Edited August 28, 2015 by S_W_LeGenD

[Beniboybling]

Assessment # 2 is problematic.

 

Darth Vader didn't learn Essence Transfer so how come he is comparable to Exar Kun in this respect? It doesn't matters how many acquired this talent, point is that Vader is not among them and doesn't scores any points in this case. Vader's strength is irrelevant in this comparison.

Vader isn't getting any points, but neither is Kun, because Essence Transfer isn't proof of his superiority in this field.

Assessment # 3 is also problematic.

 

Exar Kun have tolerated firepower of a Republic fleet but what have Vader done to match this showing? I don't see any information concerning Vader in this comparison.

Assessment #3 was a typo, it was removed because the feat doesn't exist.

In the nutshell, your conclusion in this spectrum makes no sense. Exar Kun have decisive advantage in this spectrum unless you offer a better explanation of why you think Vader is holistically on par in this case.

Uh-huh, explain why Kun should be considered superior first.

Sense spectrum:

 

Assessment # 1 is fine.

 

No other showing from both in this category? If yes, then your conclusion for this spectrum is fine.

Vader has plenty more, but there is nothing to compare them with on Kun's end.

Assessment # 1 is problematic.

 

How exactly Vader eclipses Count Dooku in raw power? Vader certainly became more powerful then Count Dooku but I don't see enormous disparity in the capabilities of both.

Because when Anakin gave into his rage he entirely dominated him in combat:

This is the death of Count Dooku:

 

A starburst of clarity blossoms within Anakin Skywalker's mind, when he says to himself Oh. I get it, now and discovers that the fear within his heart can be a weapon, too.

 

It is that simple, and that complex.

 

And it is final.

 

Dooku is dead already. The rest is mere detail.

 

The play is still on; the comedy of lightsabers flashes and snaps and hisses. Dooku & Skywalker, a one-time-only command performance, for an audience of one. Jedi and Sith and Sith and Jedi, spinning, whirling, crashing together, slashing and chopping, parrying, binding, slipping and whipping and ripping the air around them with snarls of power.

 

And all for nothing, because a nuclear flame has consumed Anakin Skywalker's Jedi restraint, and fear becomes fury without effort, and fury is a blade that makes his lightsaber into a toy.

 

The play goes on, but the suspense is over. It has become mere pantomime, as intricate and as meaningless as the space-time curves that guide galactic clusters through a measureless cosmos.

 

Dooku's decades of combat experience are irrelevant. His mastery of swordplay is useless. His vast wealth, his political influence, impeccable breeding, immaculate manners, exquisite taste-the pursuits and points of pride to which he has devoted so much of his time and attention over the long, long years of his life-are now chains hung upon his spirit, bending his neck before the ax.

 

Even his knowledge of the Force has become a joke.

 

--Taken from Revenge of the Sith novelisation

And even before giving in to his anger, Anakin is described as dominating the Count:

Skywalker was all over him.

 

The shining blue lightsaber whirled and spat and every overhand chop crashed against Dooku's defense with the unstoppable power of a meteor strike; the Sith Lord spent lavishly of his reserve of the Force merely to meet these attacks without being cut in half, and Skywalker - Skywalker was getting stronger.

 

Each parry cost Dooku more power than he'd used to throw Kenobi across the room; each block aged him a decade.

 

--Taken from Revenge of the Sith novelisation

Multiple sources state Vader advanced significantly since, surpassing Anakin and indeed eclipsing Dooku.

In addition, you assert that Vader can dominate or kill someone far stronger then Asajj Ventress with his Force powers but do not cite any example. You need to support your assumptions with examples or statements.

You understand how powerscaling works yes?

 

 

1. Count Dooku can dominate/kill Asajj Ventress
    
    
   
2. Darth Vader is far stronger than Count Dooku.
    
    
   
3. Ergo he can dominate/kill someone far stronger than Asajj Ventress.
   

Assessment # 2 seems OK. But I advice revisiting it.

On what grounds? That it's valid proof for Vader's superiority over Kun perhaps? A terrifying prospect no doubt.

Assessment # 3 is not satisfactory. I don't recall Vader being a master of Battle Meditation or even learning it.

I don't recall Kun being a master of Battle Meditation either.

You don't seem to consider information outside these 3 spectrums to evaluate characters. Why is this? Their are other ways to power-scale characters.

Because they cover every aspect of the Force. There are only accolades besides that and they've been covered. Edited August 28, 2015 by Beniboybling

[cs_zoltan]

I would therefore give Vader the edge in Alter, and for that reason the overall advantage.

 

Finally.

[Aurbere]

I'd put Revan in that list too if Aurbere's post ever showed up...

 

I think I frightened him away.

 

Nah, Beni, that's not the case. Due to some major personal issues arising, I'll need to take some time away from the forums until they resolve. I may, may make a post for Revan, but I will unlikely debate anything regarding it.

 

Apologies.

 

Edit: TBH, I'll go ahead and make my last post for this time as my case for Revan. Gotta go out with a bang

Edited August 28, 2015 by Aurbere