The Contraband Slot Machine

[Neglience]

No, it doesn't. It reduces the cost of two aspects of the game (purple mat acquisition and CM reputation acquisition). That's change, but it does not break anything.

 

This is not like the Collections bug that was a nearly limitless source of new gold in the game. Making purple mats cheaper just means some crafted item will be cheaper and more abundant. I don't see that that breaks anything. And making CM Certs and rep easier to get just means some vanity items, like mounts, are easier to get. Again, not game breaking.

 

I'd appreciate it if people would try to limit the hyperbole in their posts. Hyperbole works great for scamming people and comedy acts, but other than that it is not very productive.

 

When an integral part of the game is made usless because of a small item added to the game there is something broken.

[captpickles]

Also its pretty bad and pretty shady of how they put the Certs & Rep items into the game for next to no credits whatsoever now, when they have been only CM pack exclusive items for 2 years. Lots of people are going to stop buying packs now cause of it.

 

Oh yes they will. when the *NEXT* slot machine with new rep-rewards and *GEAR* tokens comes out in 2 weeks there will be a crazy run on cartel packs.

Edited January 20, 2015 by captpickles

[Andryah]

And what if the slot machines can generate enough mats to oversaturate all mats with value at once ? as far as i can tell everything on my servers which had a value before is going down. not just one mat.

 

The market will settle that on it's own.

 

The thing you are neglecting is the rampant "low hanging fruit" behavior so common with MMO players these days. They take the path of least resistance to what they seek. If any specific market item on the GTN is saturated and falls below some level... people stop bothering to farm/gather the item and shift so something else. Further, if there is no heavy profits to be had from items dropped by slots..... people will stop playing them.. because they offer no "low hanging fruit" to harvest. The shiny newness of fun on the slot wears off.. and it gets set aside as too boring or requiring too much time away from actually playing the game. Yet, it's always there in a pinch if a crafter needs some quick mats for crafting.

 

This stuff is largely self-limiting. In a few weeks it will run it's course, and the market and prices will stabilize. Of course they will not stabilize at the "premium" prices that early adopters craved when 3.0 went live. But then again, this often happens with items and materials in game.

 

The funny part is the immediate "low hanging fruit" behavior being exhibited with so many players trading Jawa Junk for Midlithe and selling the Midlithe on the market. Followed by passionate complaints and proclamations by people who don't like competitive and productive pricing on materials they would prefer to be able to price gouge at.

 

And NO.. the slots do not kill companion missions. They do marginalize them somewhat, for sure. But crafting missions results are somewhat more in control of the player (because there are different missions, and thus options), and can be run while actually doing other things playing the game, and when actually not logged in playing the game.

 

If I were Bioware, I would gather data for a month and then see what the market economies demonstrate, BEFORE reacting to player insistence that the "slots broke the economy" hyperbole. If their data shows unintended outcomes, then make some adjustments.

Edited January 20, 2015 by Andryah

[Andryah]

When an integral part of the game is made usless because of a small item added to the game there is something broken.

 

In your opinion.

 

The devs decide what is/is-not broken and needs fixing, not you, not I, and not Johnny MMO Game Player.

 

Got an issue with something, by all means document it and bug report it.

[Theeko]

Oh yes they will. when the *NEXT* slot machine with new rep-rewards and *GEAR* tokens comes out in 2 weeks there will be a crazy run on cartel packs.

 

Not from all the top resellers / collectors they wont

[DarthTHC]

The market will settle that on it's own.

 

The thing you are neglecting is the rampant "low hanging fruit" behavior so common with MMO players these days. They take the path of least resistance to what they seek. If any specific market item on the GTN is saturated and falls below some level... people stop bothering to farm/gather the item and shift so something else. Further, if there is no heavy profits to be had from items dropped by slots..... people will stop playing them.. because they offer no "low hanging fruit" to harvest.

 

This stuff is largely self-limiting. In a few weeks it will run it's course, and the market and prices will stabilize. Of course they will not stabilize at the "premium" prices that early adopters craved when 3.0 went live. But then again, this often happens with items and materials in game.

 

The funny part is the immediate "low hanging fruit" behavior being exhibited with so many players trading Jawa Junk for Midlithe and selling the Midlithe on the market.

 

You're missing the long-term picture.

 

These things produce crafting materials in a manner that makes the game pay the player to get them. An unscrupulous player *cough*credit seller*cough* could macro clicking these... macro a roomful of computers clicking these... and make a profit just doing that.

 

So they'll do that. And we'll see the prices of every single crafting material that can be obtained via scrap fall to the about 100 credits per stack range. Which will be "good" because we crafters no longer have to click the machines, we can buy from GTN for effectively "free". Yeah, it puts money in credit seller hands, but who cares?

 

So we'll start crafting with those things and compete like nuts because our mats are free and then... then at some point the actual credit value we get for the effort of learning to make things you want, making them, posting them to GTN, etc.... will become not worth it. So a lot of crafters will stop at that point.

 

Those who were just here to craft, and who were subscdribers to do so, would stop, taking their subscription revenue with them. Those who enjoy other parts of the game would go do that.

 

Meanwhile, the credit sellers now can go macro a mess of whatever widgets they can build with their massive supply of mats that they have too many of. And they can do that in quantities of all those things to mark them right down to under 1,000 credits each, no matter what they are. And you'll buy them, because they're cheap. I mean, who cares if the credits go into the hands of credit sellers, right?

 

While that's happening, the smart crafters... the tenacious crafters... the 1% of the 1% who really relish the thrill of the game... they will figure out how to make their money next. And we... I, because this is exactly what I plan to do...

 

I will get the recipes for the artifact level 37 item modifications. And I will pick one or two to specialize in. And I will use my vast resources and the knowledge I've gained playing the crafting game in MMO's for a decade...

 

And one day very soon you will go to the GTN and search for "Might Hilt 37" (or whatever else I pick), and you will sort by price, and you will see 19,685,000. And you will think that the GTN is bugged because that has to be the outlier. So you will click that column header again and you will see 25,000,000.

 

That will happen because the combination of resource scarcity and schematic scarcity means there are few crafters who can make it and not enough resources to flood the market. It will happen because with the wealth I've accumulated by selling you all the lowest price item of its kind tens of thousands of times let me totally control a market with that level of resource and crafter scarcity.

 

And my weekly profits will be tenfold what they ever were before.

 

This is not hyperbole. This is not alarmism. I've done the math. I've evaluated the markets. I know I can do this.

 

Meanwhile, you'll be able to buy credits from the gold sellers for something south of $1 per million, so you'll have that going for you at least.

[TUXs]

You're missing the long-term picture.

 

Meanwhile, the credit sellers now can go macro a mess of whatever widgets they can build with their massive supply of mats that they have too many of. And they can do that in quantities of all those things to mark them right down to under 1,000 credits each, no matter what they are. And you'll buy them, because they're cheap. I mean, who cares if the credits go into the hands of credit sellers, right?

 

While that's happening, the smart crafters... the tenacious crafters... the 1% of the 1% who really relish the thrill of the game... they will figure out how to make their money next. And we... I, because this is exactly what I plan to do...

 

I will get the recipes for the artifact level 37 item modifications. And I will pick one or two to specialize in. And I will use my vast resources and the knowledge I've gained playing the crafting game in MMO's for a decade...

 

And one day very soon you will go to the GTN and search for "Might Hilt 37" (or whatever else I pick), and you will sort by price, and you will see 19,685,000. And you will think that the GTN is bugged because that has to be the outlier. So you will click that column header again and you will see 25,000,000.

And my weekly profits will be tenfold what they ever were before.

 

This is not hyperbole. This is not alarmism. I've done the math. I've evaluated the markets. I know I can do this.

 

Meanwhile, you'll be able to buy credits from the gold sellers for something south of $1 per million, so you'll have that going for you at least.

Actually, that is literally the definition of hyperbole lol.

[BuriDogshin]

When an integral part of the game is made usless because of a small item added to the game there is something broken.

 

Which "integral part of the game" is that?

 

Rotating toons to send out companions on missions for purple mats?

Is that what some people play SWTOR to do? I always just found it a necessary annoyance myself.

 

But are you saying it's integral to game? That it wouldn't be Star Wars: The Old Republic" without it?

 

I don't recall anyone doing crafting missions in any of the movies. Is it from the books perhaps? I haven't read much of the EU stuff.

Edited January 20, 2015 by BuriDogshin

[Andryah]

You're missing the long-term picture.

 

.../snipped-the-sermon ....

 

Long term picture:

 

Slots do not generate credits in any appreciable amount. No matter how much you try to insist it does. Farming for certs to sell for credits is in no way an optimal path to wealth in this game.

 

The materials market, like all market segments in game, simply move credits from one player to another (unless the player simply vendors them).

 

Market forces work. You know this. When content is no longer grossly profitable.. people move on. RMTs..... for the most part are credit brokers now days.. buying from one and selling to another. So the fantasy that they are setting up whole casinos to generate wealth to resell is naieve IMO.

 

Will rare L11 mats ever return to their pre-slot pricing? NO. Do they need to? NO.

 

Will rare L11 mats sell for 100 credits a piece as you insist? NO.

 

But I tell you what.... let's take a look at it in another month (short view) and see what is going on. Then at 3 months (mid view) and then in a year (long view). Nobody will even be talking about slots.. except to demand new ones so people can earn the newer rep without having to buy and open packs.

Edited January 20, 2015 by Andryah

[Andryah]

Which "integral part of the game" is that?

 

Rotating toons to send out companions on missions for purple mats?

Is that what some people play SWTOR to do? I always just found it a necessary annoyance myself.

 

But are saying saying it's integral to game? That it wouldn't be Star Wars: The Old Republic" without it?

 

I don't recall anyone doing crafting missions in any of the movies. Is it from the books perhaps? I haven't read much of the EU stuff.

 

/Agree.

 

I think he meant to say "integral to his game play". I don't buy it.. but I believe that is what he meant.. though he kind of projected it as though he was talking for all of us.

[dscount]

Also its pretty bad and pretty shady of how they put the Certs & Rep items into the game for next to no credits whatsoever now, when they have been only CM pack exclusive items for 2 years. Lots of people are going to stop buying packs now cause of it.

 

Why? These packs are no longer available. So it's pretty cool we now have a means to GET that REP that is no longer available as well purchase vendor items unable to purchase before w/o CAP of REP.

 

I would suspect that Bioware is going to continue to release OLDER REP Slot machines as we progress into future cartel packs. The trick will most likely be this item is used to boost cartel pack sells of NEW packs and enable folks that never completed the OLD packs REP.

 

Seems to be a pretty reasonable solution if you ask me. "Next to no credits whatsoever..." yea mKay...

[BuriDogshin]

You're missing the long-term picture ... we'll see the prices of every single crafting material that can be obtained via scrap fall to the about 100 credits per stack range. Which will be "good" because we crafters no longer have to click the machines, we can buy from GTN for effectively "free". ...

So we'll start crafting with those things and compete like nuts because our mats are free and then... then at some point the actual credit value we get for the effort of learning to make things you want, making them, posting them to GTN, etc.... will become not worth it. So a lot of crafters will stop at that point.

 

At which point the prices of crafted items will start going up again, until supply matches demand.

I am looking forward to this future you described, it sounds great.

 

Those who were just here to craft, and who were subscdribers to do so, would stop, taking their subscription revenue with them.

 

Seems like a win for everyone, then: There's probably a game somewhere that is centered around crafters, and the "play to craft" crowd will be happier there. Meanwhile, those players that are here to swing lightsabers and fire blasters will enjoy reduced prices and better availability of crafted gear. Win-Win. Maybe even for BioWare, since increased availability of gear may actually increase the number of players, who can say?

 

I am not saying crafting is not important or fun, I craft myself, but mainly just to be self sufficient.

But this game is not "Star Crafting: The Old Republic," so if the devs want to favor fighters at the expense of crafters, and they think that's best for the game, that's not unreasonable of them.

 

Meanwhile, the credit sellers ...

 

Yeah, yeah, the evil credit sellers are lurking under the bed, waiting for the right moment to devour us all, I get it.

Yet somehow I still sleep at night.

[Theeko]

Why? These packs are no longer available. So it's pretty cool we now have a means to GET that REP that is no longer available as well purchase vendor items unable to purchase before w/o CAP of REP.

 

I would suspect that Bioware is going to continue to release OLDER REP Slot machines as we progress into future cartel packs. The trick will most likely be this item is used to boost cartel pack sells of NEW packs and enable folks that never completed the OLD packs REP.

 

Seems to be a pretty reasonable solution if you ask me. "Next to no credits whatsoever..." yea mKay...

 

So your saying that the people that paid real $ for those packs have now lost all there $ to EA cause of whiners like you? Wahhh I want the old Rep cause I wasn't here to get it, Wahh Wahh, never seen so much complaining about something you cant obtain anymore. I say if something is no longer in game, it should not be put back into the game as alot of others agree not just myself.

 

That is why alot of people are now deciding not to buy tons of packs ever again simply cause they got screwed out of there real $. Also without the people buying the packs for real $ you wouldn't have your welfare toys in game.

[BuriDogshin]

That is why alot of people are now deciding not to buy tons of packs ever again.

And others are buying their Hypercrates in an attempt to get Slot Machines.

Because life's too short to spend rotating toons to launch gathering missions.

[Theeko]

And others are buying their Hypercrates in an attempt to get Slot Machines.

Because life's too short to spend rotating toons to launch gathering missions.

 

Yeah cant help stupid if they want to waste there real $ on packs that are going to be worth a lot less than what they invest in them now, so be it there decision.

[TUXs]

Which "integral part of the game" is that?

 

Rotating toons to send out companions on missions for purple mats?

Is that what some people play SWTOR to do? I always just found it a necessary annoyance myself.

 

But are you saying it's integral to game? That it wouldn't be Star Wars: The Old Republic" without it?

 

I don't recall anyone doing crafting missions in any of the movies. Is it from the books perhaps? I haven't read much of the EU stuff.

Duh!!! LUKE crafted! He was cleaning droids in the original Star Wars...like the oil bath and then trying to pull that disk outta R2. And let's not forget that Uncle Owen was a freaking farmer!!!

[Infernixx]

Duh!!! LUKE crafted! He was cleaning droids in the original Star Wars...like the oil bath and then trying to pull that disk outta R2. And let's not forget that Uncle Owen was a freaking farmer!!!

 

And Anakin was obviously a Cybertech.

 

I'm guessing Luke was a Synthweaver, what with his nifty new outfit at the beginning of RotJ.

[Andryah]

Because life's too short to spend rotating toons to launch gathering missions.

 

Indeed.

 

I think a case could be made that they need to overhaul crew mission mechanics, because by the time you get to top tier in crafting... those missions are tedious and frustrating (the crafters themselves have been complaining about this for some time now). And.. perhaps.. they will overhaul it.... who knows.

 

The hilarity of the hate over the slots here is that slots give players more choice and less frustration..... yet we have some crafters who are digging in, doubling gown, and forecasting the future as though it is a coming Armageddon. It is extremely clear that what they don't like is a loss of control over "price fixing" which some crafters have become very accustomed to and comfortable with.

 

The slots are pushing people out of their established comfort zones. The slots also benefit everyone in the game as they make the price of end game items more affordable.. whether you have slots or not, or craft or not, etc.

Edited January 20, 2015 by Andryah

[Reno_Tarshil]

And Anakin was obviously a Cybertech.

 

I'm guessing Luke was a Synthweaver, what with his nifty new outfit at the beginning of RotJ.

 

Actually he saved up his cartel coins and bought the Humble Hero set with a Black/Black dye.

[dscount]

So your saying that the people that paid real $ for those packs have now lost all there $ to EA cause of whiners like you? Wahhh I want the old Rep cause I wasn't here to get it, Wahh Wahh, never seen so much complaining about something you cant obtain anymore. I say if something is no longer in game, it should not be put back into the game as alot of others agree not just myself.

 

That is why alot of people are now deciding not to buy tons of packs ever again simply cause they got screwed out of there real $. Also without the people buying the packs for real $ you wouldn't have your welfare toys in game.

 

Are you like a complete TROLL or serious? You complain about ONE thing, but then turn around and complain about that other side of that. What is wrong with you? Just enjoy stirring up hate and discontent? How are people that paid real life money losing it? Did you actually read what you typed?

 

Please LINK proof of this "alot of others agree not just myself."... because I'm not seeing that here and neither is Bioware if they have had that vendor parked in the cartel area for so long. They are only providing a means to generate more revenue, more credit sinks and more options for players.

 

Only one whining the most in this thread is YOU... Get a LIFE dude...

[Brewski]

And Anakin was obviously a Cybertech.

 

I'm guessing Luke was a Synthweaver, what with his nifty new outfit at the beginning of RotJ.

 

No Luke was an artificer, because he made his own replacement lightsaber. (With the first ever nifty green saber crystal we saw in the movies.)

[BuriDogshin]

Yeah cant help stupid if they want to waste there real $ on packs that are going to be worth a lot less than what they invest in them now, so be it there decision.

Every dollar spent on SWTOR is wasted, in some people's opinions. But when I look at the amount of entertainment I get per dollar spent, it looks like a pretty sweet deal. Heck, the entertainment provided by "playing in the forums" almost justifies my subscription all by itself.

 

Now, I could go to a casino and drop $100 in a slot machine there, maybe lose all of it and have the expense of the trip too. I might win, but I don't really need the money unless I hit the jackpot, and I won't.

 

Or I can drop $100 on CCs, enjoy the suspense of opening all the crates in two hypercrates, and hopefully get a Slot machine I can play pretty much as often as I like for no additional real money. And just like a RL casino machine, it provides the sensory rewards - lights, sounds - that the RL slot machines do, which matters, and some rewards I can use to further my SWTOR enjoyment.

 

Sounds like fun! Thanks BioWare!

[Infernixx]

No Luke was an artificer, because he made his own replacement lightsaber. (With the first ever nifty green saber crystal we saw in the movies.)

 

I stand corrected.

[TUXs]

I stand corrected.

I believe Leia was the Cybertech, since she had the Thermal Detonator in RotJ. Han was obviously just underworld gathering and Chewbacca was presumably Diplomacy since he originally negotiated the deal with Obi-wan.

[DarthTHC]

Long term picture:

 

Slots do not generate credits in any appreciable amount. No matter how much you try to insist it does. Farming for certs to sell for credits is in no way an optimal path to wealth in this game.

 

I can't believe you don't understand this. You're usually pretty good about thinking through issues. But then you use arbitrage... you're not a crafter.

 

The CM Certificates make the whole thing profitable as long as you can sell CM Personnel Decorations for something around 10k. That means that as long as that's the price point on GTN, the slots pay you to gather materials.

 

But let's say the market crashes and you can't give the stupid things away...

 

The drop rates on the slots still mean that:

 

• The cost of each artifact crafting material is 20% of what it is doing missions.
  
• You get more artifact crafting materials in 7 minutes of running coins in slots than you could hope to get from 7 minutes of sending your crew on the right missions, then waiting for those missions to return 30-45 minutes hence, and the missions you launched crit about twice as much as usual.
  

 

That's not a market "change". That completely eliminates the need or desire to run a mission ever again. It would be epically foolish to do it.

 

The materials market, like all market segments in game, simply move credits from one player to another (unless the player simply vendors them).

 

Market forces work. You know this. When content is no longer grossly profitable.. people move on. RMTs..... for the most part are credit brokers now days.. buying from one and selling to another. So the fantasy that they are setting up whole casinos to generate wealth to resell is naieve IMO.

 

Will rare L11 mats ever return to their pre-slot pricing? NO. Do they need to? NO.

 

Will rare L11 mats sell for 100 credits a piece as you insist? NO.

 

I should save this to PM to you later. If BioWare leaves this machine as it is, that is exactly what will happen. If they adjust it, well, we'll have to see what the adjustment is.

 

But I tell you what.... let's take a look at it in another month (short view) and see what is going on. Then at 3 months (mid view) and then in a year (long view). Nobody will even be talking about slots.. except to demand new ones so people can earn the newer rep without having to buy and open packs.

 

Remember when I asked you about arbitrage... how to get into it?

 

Had you asked me about how to get into crafting before last week, my answer would have started with, "Take 3 gathering skills and...."

 

Today, my answer is, "Don't bother. Ask me again if BioWare changes the slots."

 

New crafters won't be able to compete without a slot machine. They'll have to grind dailies for a good long while to afford one, then to afford enough coins to feed it to generate enough materials to start to be profitable, and by then every crafted item will be a commodity - too little profit to bother with. Running dailies will become the best way to get credits for everyone.

 

Well, except for the very few elite crafters who are gonna do what I said I'm gonna do above.

 

But, for the most part, the Labor caste has "won". Now, everyone gets to do dailies. Or arbitrage with CM items, I guess. Or RMT's.

 

Whee.

Edited January 20, 2015 by DarthTHC