4 reasonable changes I'd make to Mara

[Belpheghor]

The main 2 issues I've had playing a Mara in PvP are survivability and mobility.

 

4 simple ideas I have to tweak Mara mostly involve their DCDs, which we all know compared to Jugg and Sin, the other 2 melee classes, are lagging behind atm.

 

1- Undying Rage - Take off the 50% health loss and instead block 99% of any and all incoming healing.

This is a no brainer. By itself this ability in PvP means you just survive for 4 more seconds, after which you quickly die.....so tbh I don't even use it.

 

2 - Saber Ward - all this could use is maybe a utility tweek to reduce it's CD to 2 minutes. 3 minutes is a LONG time considering we are such a squishy class.

 

3- Cloak of Pain - should be called tickle of discomfort since it does laughable dmg. The 20% dmg reduction is fine as is but the dmg is a joke. I think it would be more interesting if it did a lot more dmg and actually make people suffer a bit for trying to focus Maras. At the moment Maras do get focused a fair amount because people know of our general lack of utility compared to other classes. Having Cloak of Pain actually hurt them a bit might help even the playing field.

 

4 - Predation - Take this OFF of the Fury system and place it on a CD, say 30 seconds maybe.

This issue has been brought up many times. As Maras we are kited a LOT so we're forced to burn our Fury stacks for Predation at times in order to GET TO our target but then we don't have them to use for our DPS, so it's a waste basically.

 

I think these are pretty simple and reasonable changes and many have already been brought up. I doubt these would imbalance PvE but they most certainly would go a long way in helping Mara in PvP.

 

Bioware, Mara are an endangered species, please don't let us go extinct.

Edited January 10, 2015 by Belpheghor

[TezMoney]

1- Health loss is part of the RP of the move, but meh

2- Naw, you're supposed to be squishy

3- It's not supposed to punish people for focusing you. That's what your stealth is for.

4- You want the entire raid to get a speed boost every 30s

[QuiveringPotato]

1- Health loss is part of the RP of the move, but meh

2- Naw, you're supposed to be squishy

3- It's not supposed to punish people for focusing you. That's what your stealth is for.

4- You want the entire raid to get a speed boost every 30s

 

Regarding #4, as a carnage mara, you could be popping predation every like 15-20 seconds if you were constantly attacking people/getting attacked, so it wouldn't be much of a difference, lol.

[Saikochoro]

1. Just remove health cost entirely. Reduce healing recieved by 80-90% for duration.

2. Saberward cooldown is too long I agree. I'd say 2 mins would be good. That or enhance the power of saber ward to justify a 3 minute cooldown.

3. I really only treat cloak of pain as a damage reduction cooldown. So I don't really care about the damage it does.

4. You can actually have predation more than every 30 seconds with a couple utilities and while you are being attacked and attacking yourself. Many other classes have to give up a little DPS to gain some survivability (in this case mobility). I wouldn't support this change.

[Defecter]

Meh, when I play my Marauder, I don't feel like I'm lacking in the defensive part. If left to my own devices, I genuinely feel like a glass cannon, as it should be. The one thing I feel that hampers this class is it's lack of anti-kiting abilities. Pretty much any other class can easily escape and/or kite a Marauder to death, leaving the class completely and utterly helpless.

 

The fact that the Marauder is squishy doesn't bother me as the class does have a high damage potential. It's simply the fact that that damage potential is completely and utterly wasted by the fact that anything outside melee range is untouchable for a Marauder.

 

I'm just spitballing here, but something like a discipline talent such as 'Predation now removes all movement impairing effects and makes you immune to them for the first X seconds of Predation. This effect can only happen every Y seconds' would alleviate it a little bit without giving the option to completely ignore kiting. Kinda like a miniature version of Hydraulic Overrides.

[Lhancelot]

I am not even going to read your post in it's entirety. Anytime a person suggests making the marauder class better, I support your cause! Yes. Make the marauder class better. Please. Thank you.

[QuiveringPotato]

1. Just remove health cost entirely. Reduce healing recieved by 80-90% for duration.

2. Saberward cooldown is too long I agree. I'd say 2 mins would be good. That or enhance the power of saber ward to justify a 3 minute cooldown.

3. I really only treat cloak of pain as a damage reduction cooldown. So I don't really care about the damage it does.

4. You can actually have predation more than every 30 seconds with a couple utilities and while you are being attacked and attacking yourself. Many other classes have to give up a little DPS to gain some survivability (in this case mobility). I wouldn't support this change.

 

The thing about predation, though, is that carnage is the only tree that can actually use this ability at 30 stacks regularly without losing a bunch of DPS. Not to mention that without the T3 utility for the extra speed (previously carnage baseline), Predation is just a waste of fury altogether.

 

If you use predation at all as annihilation, you're butchering your DPS.

 

As fury.. it's debatable, but, you're losing a lot of rage/free 3 stacks of shockwave, which in turn means a loss of DPS.

Edited January 9, 2015 by QuiveringPotato

[Moosestick]

1- Undying Rage - Take off the 50% health loss and instead block 99% of any and all incoming healing.

This is a no brainer. By itself this ability in PvP means you just survive for 4 more seconds, after which you quickly die.....so tbh I don't even use it.

If bastion, enraged d, or any of the other lol abilities they have been given blocked incoming heals I could agree. The game has changed greatly since this ability was last nerfed. This ability should be where marauders large heal and dcd should be located.

 

2 - Saber Ward - all this could use is maybe a utility tweek to reduce it's CD to 2 minutes. 3 minutes is a LONG time considering we are such a squishy class.

Agree

 

3- Cloak of Pain - should be called tickle of discomfort since it does laughable dmg. The 20% dmg reduction is fine as is but the dmg is a joke. I think it would be more interesting if it did a lot more dmg and actually make people suffer a bit for trying to focus Maras. At the moment Maras do get focused a fair amount because people know of our general lack of utility compared to other classes. Having Cloak of Pain actually hurt them a bit might help even the playing field.

I would rather have root/slow immunity while cloak is up. Total CC immunity would be fun, but OP.

 

4 - Predation - Take this OFF of the Fury system and place it on a CD, say 30 seconds maybe.

This issue has been brought up many times. As Maras we are kited a LOT so we're forced to burn our Fury stacks for Predation at times in order to GET TO our target but then we don't have them to use for our DPS, so it's a waste basically.

Personally I would rather keep the option for double predation and fix roots with cloak.

[Saikochoro]

The thing about predation, though, is that carnage is the only tree that can actually use this ability at 30 stacks regularly without losing a bunch of DPS. Not to mention that without the T3 utility for the extra speed (previously carnage baseline), Predation is just a waste of fury altogether.

 

If you use predation at all as annihilation, you're butchering your DPS.

 

As fury.. it's debatable, but, you're losing a lot of rage/free 3 stacks of shockwave, which in turn means a loss of DPS.

 

I never said it wasnt a sacrifice. It doesn't butcher your damage. It decreases it yes, but doesn't butcher it. You can build shockwave with crush as well. All maras can take the utility to build fury while being attacked and all maras can take the brooding as well if they chose. All three specs can build fury fairly fast. There are other specs that must give up DPS for survivability (I consider mobility survivability for maras). The classes that can do full DPS while having full defenses are the ones that people are complaining about.

Edited January 9, 2015 by Saikochoro

[Saikochoro]

Meh, when I play my Marauder, I don't feel like I'm lacking in the defensive part. If left to my own devices, I genuinely feel like a glass cannon, as it should be. The one thing I feel that hampers this class is it's lack of anti-kiting abilities. Pretty much any other class can easily escape and/or kite a Marauder to death, leaving the class completely and utterly helpless.

 

The fact that the Marauder is squishy doesn't bother me as the class does have a high damage potential. It's simply the fact that that damage potential is completely and utterly wasted by the fact that anything outside melee range is untouchable for a Marauder.

 

I'm just spitballing here, but something like a discipline talent such as 'Predation now removes all movement impairing effects and makes you immune to them for the first X seconds of Predation. This effect can only happen every Y seconds' would alleviate it a little bit without giving the option to completely ignore kiting. Kinda like a miniature version of Hydraulic Overrides.

 

Unbound basically does that, but it should make you immune to them for duration of predation. Except maybe knockbacks.

[nitroyoshi]

marauders need lifesteal

and a tweaked undying rage

then theyre perfect

[TezMoney]

Regarding #4, as a carnage mara, you could be popping predation every like 15-20 seconds if you were constantly attacking people/getting attacked, so it wouldn't be much of a difference, lol.

 

Difference being across all specs with no dps loss.

Edited January 9, 2015 by TezMoney

[Azurestone]

The main 2 issues I've had playing a Mara in PvP are survivability and mobility.

 

4 simple ideas I have to tweek Mara mostly involve their DCDs, which we all know compared to Jugg and Sin, the other 2 melee classes, are lagging behind atm.

 

1- Undying Rage - Take off the 50% health loss and instead block 99% of any and all incoming healing.

This is a no brainer. By itself this ability in PvP means you just survive for 4 more seconds, after which you quickly die.....so tbh I don't even use it.

 

2 - Saber Ward - all this could use is maybe a utility tweek to reduce it's CD to 2 minutes. 3 minutes is a LONG time considering we are such a squishy class.

 

3- Cloak of Pain - should be called tickle of discomfort since it does laughable dmg. The 20% dmg reduction is fine as is but the dmg is a joke. I think it would be more interesting if it did a lot more dmg and actually make people suffer a bit for trying to focus Maras. At the moment Maras do get focused a fair amount because people know of our general lack of utility compared to other classes. Having Cloak of Pain actually hurt them a bit might help even the playing field.

 

4 - Predation - Take this OFF of the Fury system and place it on a CD, say 30 seconds maybe.

This issue has been brought up many times. As Maras we are kited a LOT so we're forced to burn our Fury stacks for Predation at times in order to GET TO our target but then we don't have them to use for our DPS, so it's a waste basically.

 

I think these are pretty simple and reasonable changes and many have already been brought up. I doubt these would imbalance PvE but they most certainly would go a long way in helping Mara in PvP.

 

Bioware, Mara are an endangered species, please don't let us go extinct.

 

I don't really play this class, so I am mostly ignorant of the details about his class' balance, but I find it really hard to refuse said changes proposed.

 

Details to be discussed, but OP's arguments make a very solid case in 1 and 2:

 

1. Undying rage is imo the worst DCD in game. I didn't ***** much about it when it got nerfed, but the old undying rage has always been fine. Even with the old smash, before sorc/sin got buffed up, I've always believed that undying rage was fine the way it was.

 

2. For barrier has a shorter CD.

[MsMalice]

4- You want the entire raid to get a speed boost every 30s

 

Maybe Pred/Trans could consume 15-20 stacks instead of 30. Just a thought.

[Kooziejr]

The main 2 issues I've had playing a Mara in PvP are survivability and mobility.

 

4 simple ideas I have to tweek Mara mostly involve their DCDs, which we all know compared to Jugg and Sin, the other 2 melee classes, are lagging behind atm.

 

1- Undying Rage - Take off the 50% health loss and instead block 99% of any and all incoming healing.

This is a no brainer. By itself this ability in PvP means you just survive for 4 more seconds, after which you quickly die.....so tbh I don't even use it.

 

2 - Saber Ward - all this could use is maybe a utility tweek to reduce it's CD to 2 minutes. 3 minutes is a LONG time considering we are such a squishy class.

 

3- Cloak of Pain - should be called tickle of discomfort since it does laughable dmg. The 20% dmg reduction is fine as is but the dmg is a joke. I think it would be more interesting if it did a lot more dmg and actually make people suffer a bit for trying to focus Maras. At the moment Maras do get focused a fair amount because people know of our general lack of utility compared to other classes. Having Cloak of Pain actually hurt them a bit might help even the playing field.

 

4 - Predation - Take this OFF of the Fury system and place it on a CD, say 30 seconds maybe.

This issue has been brought up many times. As Maras we are kited a LOT so we're forced to burn our Fury stacks for Predation at times in order to GET TO our target but then we don't have them to use for our DPS, so it's a waste basically.

 

I think these are pretty simple and reasonable changes and many have already been brought up. I doubt these would imbalance PvE but they most certainly would go a long way in helping Mara in PvP.

 

Bioware, Mara are an endangered species, please don't let us go extinct.

 

All your credibility went out the window when you said you don't even use UR. you're playing it wrong.

[Nekrall]

The main 2 issues I've had playing a Mara in PvP are survivability and mobility.

 

4 simple ideas I have to tweek Mara mostly involve their DCDs, which we all know compared to Jugg and Sin, the other 2 melee classes, are lagging behind atm.

 

1- Undying Rage - Take off the 50% health loss and instead block 99% of any and all incoming healing.

This is a no brainer. By itself this ability in PvP means you just survive for 4 more seconds, after which you quickly die.....so tbh I don't even use it.

 

2 - Saber Ward - all this could use is maybe a utility tweek to reduce it's CD to 2 minutes. 3 minutes is a LONG time considering we are such a squishy class.

 

3- Cloak of Pain - should be called tickle of discomfort since it does laughable dmg. The 20% dmg reduction is fine as is but the dmg is a joke. I think it would be more interesting if it did a lot more dmg and actually make people suffer a bit for trying to focus Maras. At the moment Maras do get focused a fair amount because people know of our general lack of utility compared to other classes. Having Cloak of Pain actually hurt them a bit might help even the playing field.

 

4 - Predation - Take this OFF of the Fury system and place it on a CD, say 30 seconds maybe.

This issue has been brought up many times. As Maras we are kited a LOT so we're forced to burn our Fury stacks for Predation at times in order to GET TO our target but then we don't have them to use for our DPS, so it's a waste basically.

 

I think these are pretty simple and reasonable changes and many have already been brought up. I doubt these would imbalance PvE but they most certainly would go a long way in helping Mara in PvP.

 

Bioware, Mara are an endangered species, please don't let us go extinct.

 

Decent ideas, you are close to the root of the problems.

 

I will be making a thread about marauder redesign tomorrow which addresses the issues the class currently faces. It will be a long one.

[Belpheghor]

1- Health loss is part of the RP of the move, but meh

2- Naw, you're supposed to be squishy

3- It's not supposed to punish people for focusing you. That's what your stealth is for.

4- You want the entire raid to get a speed boost every 30s

 

1 - 50% health loss on a DCD is a bit extreme, which OTHER class has to pay THAT high a price on their DCDs??

 

2 - Yes, you're right, we are supposed to be squishy, but Sins are squishy too and their similar ability is on a 2 minute CD. Just add in one of the utilities to cut the CD on Saber Ward by 60 seconds, seems fair to me.

 

3 - Agreed, stealth (force camo) is how you escape (btw would be nice if force camo purged all slows, roots, snares and dots). My point was Cloak of Pain is a joke. Sure it does give you 20% dmg reduction and it's on a mere 60 second CD, but the dmg it puts out blows chunks. Just saying it would be more interesting if it had some real bite to punish would be attackers, get it?

 

4 - way off. as others have mentioned, you CAN build up Fury fast enough to use Predation more than every 30 seconds. The point was, as has been mentioned in other threads, is Predation is a much needed gap closer so we're forced to choose between using it to close gaps or saving it for our dps burst. Doesn't HAVE to be 30 seconds, just throwing out a number. If it would make you feel better maybe they could remove the "team" element of Predation and have it only effect you.

[Belpheghor]

marauders need lifesteal

and a tweaked undying rage

then theyre perfect

 

lifesteal, like leeching strike? That would be cool, maybe also ramp up the heals off of bleed crits in Anni spec higher than a mere 1%, but that's more spec specific.

 

UR is the biggest issue of the class, agreed.

[Belpheghor]

All your credibility went out the window when you said you don't even use UR. you're playing it wrong.

 

By itself? no. Only time I use this trash DCD is when I have a million dots on me and I need to force camo out, run off and heal up/hide. UR has been wrecked since they nerfed it. Maybe you have the luxury to roll with healers but I pug.

 

Mara used to have a thousand "NERF MARA" threads once upon a time. Mara used to be the gods of PvP and the river of tears was so intense that I believe Bioware are STILL afraid to un nerf Mara.

 

My opinion is that they are scared of buffing Mara at ALL and getting another massive backlash from the player base so they just leave them as is.

 

Funny how life has come full circle. At point point in time Jugg and Sin were struggling in PvP dps and there were a thousand Maras in WZs. Seriously you have 2 or 3 Maras jump on you at a time, it was nuts.

 

NOW you barely see 1, maybe 2 Maras in a WZ. Watch the rosters, Mara are virtually gone.

[alexsamma]

Please do not change predation/trancendence, despite the loss in dps I find that there are many situations when using pred is much more important/clutch than the increase in dps from zen/beserk.

[alexsamma]

By itself? no. Only time I use this trash DCD is when I have a million dots on me and I need to force camo out, run off and heal up/hide. UR has been wrecked since they nerfed it. Maybe you have the luxury to roll with healers but I pug.

 

Mara used to have a thousand "NERF MARA" threads once upon a time. Mara used to be the gods of PvP and the river of tears was so intense that I believe Bioware are STILL afraid to un nerf Mara.

 

My opinion is that they are scared of buffing Mara at ALL and getting another massive backlash from the player base so they just leave them as is.

 

Funny how life has come full circle. At point point in time Jugg and Sin were struggling in PvP dps and there were a thousand Maras in WZs. Seriously you have 2 or 3 Maras jump on you at a time, it was nuts.

 

NOW you barely see 1, maybe 2 Maras in a WZ. Watch the rosters, Mara are virtually gone.

 

You're so wrong, undying/gbtf gives 99% damage reduction, the best time to use this is when you will end up with more hp at the end of Undying/gbtf than you would if you did not use it - undying/gbtf is not your drop-focus dcd (that's camo), it's your go-to cool down to absorb massive amounts of damage that would usually kill you.

 

Examples:

1: PT pulls you out of the middle of AH and you are about to get focused by 4-5 of the enemy team.

2: You're being focused by a sniper about to use ambush, a jugg is starting to ravage, and a sorc is casting thundering blast (plus any splash damage), you will die if you get hit by all of this (and not even a jugg's ed is going to save him) so you pop undying and suddenly half of your hp (a max of ~22.5k if you are at 100% health) is a very small price to pay.

3: Your medpack is about to come off cooldown (or your healer is cc'd) and you need to buy a few seconds.

 

There are so many situations wen using undying/gbtf is clutch.

 

Legitimate changes to sent/mara (excuse me if I intermix mara/sent terminology):

 

1: You cannot be cc'd while you are under the effects of Force Camo

2: Rebuke/COP can be used while cc'd as a baseline utility

3: Pred/Trance breaks roots as a baseline utility

4: Defensive forms is baseline and not a utility

5: Leg slash is 10m.

6: Debilitation is no longer a utility, but is baseline for Combat/Carnage

7: When you are immobilized you generate 1 additional fury stack for the duration of the root/stun

 

Could be a bit much, but this would help with mobility and offset the dps loss from using pred/trance:

8: When pred/tance frees you from a root you build 2x as much fury/centering for ~5 seconds

9: Being CC'd, rooted, or knocked back reduces the active cd of force leap by 1 second.

Edited January 10, 2015 by alexsamma

[Belpheghor]

You're so wrong, undying/gbtf gives 99% damage reduction, the best time to use this is when you will end up with more hp at the end of Undying/gbtf than you would if you did not use it - undying/gbtf is not your drop-focus dcd (that's camo), it's your go-to cool down to absorb massive amounts of damage that would usually kill you.

 

Examples:

1: PT pulls you out of the middle of AH and you are about to get focused by 4-5 of the enemy team.

2: You're being focused by a sniper about to use ambush, a jugg is starting to ravage, and a sorc is casting thundering blast (plus any splash damage), you will die if you get hit by all of this (and not even a jugg's ed is going to save him) so you pop undying and suddenly half of your hp (a max of ~22.5k if you are at 100% health) is a very small price to pay.

3: Your medpack is about to come off cooldown (or your healer is cc'd) and you need to buy a few seconds.

 

There are so many situations wen using undying/gbtf is clutch.

.

 

The assumption here is you have a healer. Why should Mara be penalized worse than other classes? Jugg, Sin, Pt, Sorc, etc, NONE of them have a DCD that TAKES half their health off.

 

I agree you can use UR when under heavy focus........to live FOUR MORE SECONDS......big whoop, as soon as the dmg immunity stops and your health PLUMMETS you will die. Best case is to have force camo off it's CD at the end and have a place to hide out n' heal back up if you aren't lucky enough to have a pocket healer.

 

All they'd need to do is take off the 50% health loss and just block any incoming healing for the duration, that sounds fair to me.

[alexsamma]

The assumption here is you have a healer. Why should Mara be penalized worse than other classes? Jugg, Sin, Pt, Sorc, etc, NONE of them have a DCD that TAKES half their health off.

 

I agree you can use UR when under heavy focus........to live FOUR MORE SECONDS......big whoop, as soon as the dmg immunity stops and your health PLUMMETS you will die. Best case is to have force camo off it's CD at the end and have a place to hide out n' heal back up if you aren't lucky enough to have a pocket healer.

 

All they'd need to do is take off the 50% health loss and just block any incoming healing for the duration, that sounds fair to me.

 

You're still thinking of undying as being your "oh ****" dcd, when in fact that is camo - camo is your force barrier, it's your ED, it's your combat stealth - yes, it doesn't have the self healing of ED, you can't drop combat and self heal like a sin/op, and you have no super cool utilities that will heal you back up after it ends like barrier, but it is up EVERY 45 SECONDS, it drops focus (amazing against tanks who are using as their focus target to switch guards, but that is another story), it reduces damage taken, it can increase movement speed.

 

Here's the thing, you can still kill a jugg when he pops ED (Easier in 3.0 I might add), barrier is a time out for sages/sorcs and is pretty meh without the corrupted barrier utility, and combat stealth is only superior to camo when you can afford to hide and heal; when you pop undying at 30k hp and absorb 30-40k, drop to 15k (assuming zero healing for the duration) then pop a medpack for ~15.5k and you're suddenly back at 30k+ hp you just used undying to buy a second life... while being impossible to kill for the duration of undying/gbtf (unles you pop it at ~5 hp...), and at this point you've only used one of your "oh ****" cool downs

 

Now, you say I am assuming you always have a healer, but that's only true in team ranked, in a regular warzone you can:

 

1: Use a medpack, and this is up every 2 minutes as long as you are not in continuous combat (shouldn't happen if you do not have a healer)

2: Run to a health power-up

3: Run away and hide until you drop combat (usually not worth it, but still an option)

4: Buy time for other dcds to come off cool down.

 

Solo queue is a complete **** show, and while sentinels are no where near the top of the food chain in solo queue I've seen way to many good players do well in solo arena to think they are at the bottom.

 

Finally your last idea is just... meh, it would actually make sentinels and marauders weaker in competitive pvp, why would you want to make the class slightly stronger for solo queuers (and that would only be in situations where you have no healers) in exchange for nerfing the class in competitive play?

[Belpheghor]

You're still thinking of undying as being your "oh ****" dcd, when in fact that is camo - camo is your force barrier, it's your ED, it's your combat stealth - yes, it doesn't have the self healing of ED, you can't drop combat and self heal like a sin/op, and you have no super cool utilities that will heal you back up after it ends like barrier, but it is up EVERY 45 SECONDS, it drops focus (amazing against tanks who are using as their focus target to switch guards, but that is another story), it reduces damage taken, it can increase movement speed.

 

Here's the thing, you can still kill a jugg when he pops ED (Easier in 3.0 I might add), barrier is a time out for sages/sorcs and is pretty meh without the corrupted barrier utility, and combat stealth is only superior to camo when you can afford to hide and heal; when you pop undying at 30k hp and absorb 30-40k, drop to 15k (assuming zero healing for the duration) then pop a medpack for ~15.5k and you're suddenly back at 30k+ hp you just used undying to buy a second life... while being impossible to kill for the duration of undying/gbtf (unles you pop it at ~5 hp...), and at this point you've only used one of your "oh ****" cool downs

 

Now, you say I am assuming you always have a healer, but that's only true in team ranked, in a regular warzone you can:

 

1: Use a medpack, and this is up every 2 minutes as long as you are not in continuous combat (shouldn't happen if you do not have a healer)

2: Run to a health power-up

3: Run away and hide until you drop combat (usually not worth it, but still an option)

4: Buy time for other dcds to come off cool down.

 

Solo queue is a complete **** show, and while sentinels are no where near the top of the food chain in solo queue I've seen way to many good players do well in solo arena to think they are at the bottom.

 

Finally your last idea is just... meh, it would actually make sentinels and marauders weaker in competitive pvp, why would you want to make the class slightly stronger for solo queuers (and that would only be in situations where you have no healers) in exchange for nerfing the class in competitive play?

 

You make some good points.

[Conduct]

Would like to se undieing rage be able to break stun and give u imunety for the period. Keep the health lost. Also force cloak to purge/clense ang a 6 second imunety to movement imparing, includes slows and roots not ccs. And heal/slow to go back to 10 range. That would be dandy as a start.