Beniboybling Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 Based on what we see in the films. Palpatine's shown with a strong control over Lightning, is a very good saber duelist, but for Sith, his powers run to the mundane.The movies show Palpatine to have near omnipotent powers of Force sight, blitzing some of the Jedi Order's finest warriors in seconds as if they were fodder, overwhelming Mace Windu - a master of Vaapad - with his Force lightning, and finally contending with and defeating Yoda, the most powerful Jedi to have ever lived. Mundane? Who else could have accomplished this bar the Sith Emperor? And even then Yoda would probably have defeated him in the same manner that the Hero of Tython did. I think you exaggerate other Sith Lord's abilities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nebdar Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 sorry for bumping in but What is EU stand for? Entire universe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 sorry for bumping in but What is EU stand for? Entire universe?Expanded Universe, basically the books, comics, video games etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghisallo Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 I disagree that Bane's method creates stronger Sith. It makes the Sith Order far more fragile, pushes much of the effort on staying off the Jedi's radar, prevents the sharing of knowledge and collaboration, and severely limits the sort of options available to the Sith because they have minimal support structure of personnel, to whom critical tasks could be delegated to. Which is probably why he shows no esoteric powers in any of the three situations where he is, quite literally, fighting for his life in the films: Those techniques died with the pre-Bane Sith Order, and there's few ways to recover that knowledge. The EU has this fascination with making Sidious more powerful than he needs to be. He works far, far better as a fairly powerful, but not overwhelming, Sith that, since he can't outright destroy the Jedi Order on his own, has to play the long game, and take over the Republic from within. But no, EU writers gotta make the OG Sith the most powerful one too, so he can now create wormholes with the Force because screw you for wanting cunning, low powered villains! First the arts didn't die. Did you read the Bane books? If anything he was the only Sith of his era that actually cared to learn the ancient knowledge, he simply didn't have the talent for Sith Sorcery that his eventual apprentice had. He still passed on this knowledge however, there are still Sith Holicrons etc. Also in numerous source books and as mentioned in more than a couple of the comics he DID have these esoteric powers. As you ignore he knew the art of midichlorians manipulation. He was skilled in Sith Alchemy and even wrote a books on the subject called "The creation of Monsters.". He has been documented using Sith Magic to Detect poisons and drugs in his food and drink and also mastered the art of Essence Transfer, not only being able to transfer his essence but the essence of others into different bodies. Simply because it is not in the movies does not mean it does not exist. Second, in fast ditch combat with people who in terms of skill are close to you (Windu and Yoda) you are not going to dick around with some bizzare ritualistic esoteric ability. You are going to fight as efficiently and quickly as possible. This combined with what is clear at that stage a little over confidence, means light sabers, force lightning TK etc. How often in combat vs equals in the EU do we see people using bizarre esoteric abilities against each other. Yes you see peons, non-force users etc being attacked in such a way, the Sith almost playing with them, but when it comes down to a knock down drag out fight between ~ equals...its sabers and throw crap. Third you ignore the KEY fact of just about every pre rule of 2 Sith Empire. 9 times out of 10 they fell to pieces not because the Republic and the Jedi were that much better, rather because their in-fighting and internal back stabbing made them vulnerable. Now you may not agree with George Lucas and his creation of the Rule of 2 concept. It is based on the idea that the Darkside is DOOMED to consume itself and so when it is embodied in Sith or Dark Jedi, the only way they can flourish is by having a system like the rule of 2. Having a empire with hundreds or thousands of Sith is doomed to failure as they are as interested in their own petty BS as they are in winning. As such there is little to know cooperation or sharing of knowledge. They keep such knowledge to themselves, try to wack their rivals or get wacked themselves. They make temporary alliances to kill those stronger than themselves and then turn on each other, with no structure or overall plan governing the actions. In that world a very clever astute politician can orchestrate the downfall of someone more powerful and more knowledeable in the force. The rule of two creates a Darwinian cycle where in knowledge is indeed shared. New techniques created (read Darth Plaqueis books, midichlorian manipulation was a brand new esoteric path to power). Then the apprentice only becomes THE Lord when they are powerful and knowledgeable enough to slay their Master. The new generation is thus stronger than the one before. Hell if I remember right Bane tried to have is first apprentice smoked because he did not think she would become strong enough to kill him. That new Lord then goes forth to find an apprentice that will one day be more powerful than them. If the apprentice proves weaker...they die and then a new one is found. It seems like your main issue is that you don't think the rule of 2 makes sense so disagree with it. As Sidious is the product of the rule of 2, the only way he can be the most powerful Sith ever is by George Lucas and the EU writers saying "because I said so.". The problem is that the previous Sith Empires fell and the rule of 2 works as I described above in the Star Wars Universe. As such Sidious being that powerful is logical according to the structure of the Universe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghisallo Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 (edited) PS I do also admit that the rule of 2 essentially means the Sith (as opposed to simply dark Jedit are doomed). One path (Sith order/empire) they are doomed to contribute tot heir own destruction. Rule of 2 they can survive and cause A LOT of trouble but in the end if they come out of hiding they will likely end up overreaching because there is little chance of being able to kill all Jedi and/or crush all resistance. In the end though, in George's world that is as it should be. Be it years, decades or centuries, the Light side will always triumph over the Dark. Edited February 9, 2015 by Ghisallo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 Couldn't have said it better myself. I'd also add to that that as the Order of the Sith Lords grew more and more powerful they became capable of ritual no Sith before them had ever achieved, including mastery over life and death, and the ability to create dark side nexuses single handedly. Darth Tenebrous created a wound in the Force and Darth Sidious and Darth Plagueis after engaging in a months long ritual, shifted the very balance of the Force. It has also been stated many times that the Order of the Sith Lords collected a wealth of ancient knowledge, teachings, holocrons and manuscripts over millenia, and researched and made various breakthrough discoveries into the nature of the Force and the dark side. As Ghisallo suggested I'd recommend you read the Darth Bane and Darth Plagueis. Or alternatively you could just read this Wookiee article. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fangyman Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 (edited) Sidious is the most powerful for now. Remember Disney controls Star Wars and they can and will do what ever they want. No one is talking about Disney canon, we're talking about EU/Legends continuity. And everything Vitiate has done has been surpassed by Sidious. I honestly think they could of killed him in Episode III if Yoda had taken Obi with him to fight him. If they had killed Sidious then all of his plans would of fallen apart and Anakin would of been alone and with out Sidious then there is no way he could of taken control of the Universe. That's a nice theory, too bad it does not hold water for any number of reasons: 1.) All source books, guides, and lore has established as powerful as Yoda is, as a pure duelist and swordsmen he is inferior to Windu 2.) Sidious vs Windu started as a 1 vs 4 match which included Agen Kolar, Sasee Tinn, and Kit Fisto; those three said Jedi Masters in question have been established multiple times as equals if not superior to Anakin and Obi-Wan in terms of skill and are stated to be among the "finest swordsmen" in the Jedi Order under Windu and Yoda 3.) Even with said advantage in numbers and having several high-ranking swordsmen including Kit Fisto who is Obi-Wan's equal, they were cut down in mere moments and Fisto lasted the longest; ergo Obi-Wan would've died within moments of engaging Sidious even with Yoda there 4.) Yoda in the RoTS novelization even admitted he lost the fight before it started, imagine how much worse he would've fared if he had to be waste time and energy protecting Obi-Wan while engaging Sidious 5.) Anakin would still be alive, not-crippled, at full power and his potential to surpass Yoda and Sidious would not be compromised. Which means he would be left alone to develop his powers as Sidious' apprentice and Obi-Wan would be dead, with the possibility of Yoda as well Nah, really not seeing that happening. [What I think is funny is despite all his power he could not stop Vader from picking him up and throwing him into a reactor. You would not see Reven going down like that, just saying... Same Revan got curbstomped by Vitiate, the same Vitiate who ran into a lightsaber wielded by the Hero of Tython. You aren't exactly in the position to criticize Sidious for being thrown down a reactor's shaft while he's focusing all his attention and power on killing and torturing Luke when a 2.5 meter tall cyborg bodily lifts him while he's defenseless. Edited February 9, 2015 by Fangyman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suromir Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 Sidious is the most powerful for now. Remember Disney controls Star Wars and they can and will do what ever they want. I honestly think they could of killed him in Episode III if Yoda had taken Obi with him to fight him. If they had killed Sidious then all of his plans would of fallen apart and Anakin would of been alone and with out Sidious then there is no way he could of taken control of the Universe. What I think is funny is despite all his power he could not stop Vader from picking him up and throwing him into a reactor. You would not see Reven going down like that, just saying... uh. Revan is no match for Vitiate..confirmed in game...Vitiate is no match for Palpatine. but nice try.... lmao I swear the revan drones STILL won't admit he's nowhere near as powerful as they want to think...he lost to the emporer (vitiate) twice...was imprisoned and driven mad...and even if he was "whole" during SoR could have never beaten the emporer...seeing as he already failed twice... and, again, Vitiate isn't as powerful as Sidious. Get over it man, Revan isn't half as strong as you devotee's want to think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghisallo Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 (edited) /snip The only thing I would say is that two things resulted, at least in part, from Sidious' pride and arrogance, not lack of power. Windu pretty much proved he was a better duelist than Sidious. Sidious simply should not have engaged Windu and his back up with a Light Saber to begin with. Basically it should have been "Master Windu.... ZAAAAAAAAAAAAAPPPPPPPPPPP..... silly Jedi, brought a light saber to a lightning fight" because Sidious absolutely trumps Windu on force abilities. But pride gets in the way. Same thing with Sidious death. Sidious was frying Luke and because he was no confident in his corruption of Vader that he never considered that Vader would turn on him. If you watch the scene actually Vader stands next to Sidious for more than a couple moments struggling with what to do. I said pride was a part of it because some of the stuff I have read is that Sidious wasn't just torturing Luke. Luke was actually using tutaminis and while he could not pull a Yoda and stop Sidious' force lighting, it was enough to stop it from instantly killing him. Thus Sidious was a tad too distracted to notice Vader turning on him. Edited February 12, 2015 by Ghisallo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoom_VI Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 (edited) If sidious is so powerful why does he get thrown down a shaft by a half machine man that was already dying? I mean really, most powerful sith ever can't stop himself from being thrown over a railing? /drops mic Edited February 12, 2015 by Zoom_VI Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghisallo Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 Already answered in the thread. Did you not read or are ya trolling? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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