Speed Scout and Charged Plating Imperium -> both hard countered by Gunship

[blade_mercurial]

 

As for Blade_mercurials comment on you just get 12km away and turn around this never even got close to happening. If you're talking about flying vs a Retro Sting/Flashfire those usually use Quads/Pods and you wouldn't be any better off fighting at 5k vs them, you would still be at a disadvantage.

 

I wasn't in the match, but theoretically, this build does have enough shields to take 1 cluster hit without worry provided your shields are in good shape and any other missile has too slow a lock-on to effectively peel you, so I'm not sure this build is MORE susceptible to getting peeled than any other scout.

 

And I've already admitted the weakness it has against quads + pods. I'm not sure why you think its a 'weak' build though. I mean it only has 1 hard counter (3+ gunships) and its easy to outrun/avoid quad/pod scouts. Its speed and firepower allow it to take on anything else in a TDM environment in favorable terms. Its also much stronger than most scouts at killing bombers (only quads+pods has similar effectiveness vs bombers). So yeah. It seems pretty good for most TDM matches and if there are lots of gunships, just fly something else...

[Verain]

The distortion active does do a lot more than just negate one cluster, however.

 

When I play the "Brave Sir Robin", the ability to boost just seems so powerful (and it is), but I'm not able to really contribute like I could on many other ships. Distortion's shield is pressed into use to gain a bit more offensive, but speed to engine has a special that makes you weaker if hit, and only stronger because you can get in and out better.

 

I think Drako's assessment about the scout just being more peelable is correct. I think if the field was littered with high value targets, then this build would spend a lot of time making one of them move and another peel, a pretty optimal scenario, but it doesn't have the "spot removal" ability of the other variants, so it would likely not shine in that scenario.

 

I will also point out that on a game we played WITH Nemarus (domination), this build's ability to run to a node was very valuable. I know that's rather obvious, but it's still a decent plus in its favor.

[Drakkolich]

I wasn't in the match, but theoretically, this build does have enough shields to take 1 cluster hit without worry provided your shields are in good shape and any other missile has too slow a lock-on to effectively peel you, so I'm not sure this build is MORE susceptible to getting peeled than any other scout.

 

And I've already admitted the weakness it has against quads + pods. I'm not sure why you think its a 'weak' build though. I mean it only has 1 hard counter (3+ gunships) and its easy to outrun/avoid quad/pod scouts. Its speed and firepower allow it to take on anything else in a TDM environment in favorable terms. Its also much stronger than most scouts at killing bombers (only quads+pods has similar effectiveness vs bombers). So yeah. It seems pretty good for most TDM matches and if there are lots of gunships, just fly something else...

 

 

First of all I have never said this build is "weak", I do not think it's weak at all. However I also do not think it is the optimal Scout build. This is why when I'm comparing the two Scout builds all I'm saying is where it's at a disadvantage.

 

Secondly the difference between these two Scouts shield totals is 325 shields per arc. If anyone thinks 325 shields is worth 9% Passive Evasion I'd love to hear how you think so. To me the 325 shield advantage does not scream to me as having the ability to shrug off a cluster missile. Not to mention I have no idea how much shield energy the active eats up to provide engine energy. (Does anyone know this number?)

 

 

You're last sentence pretty much hits the nail on the head, this build is pretty good for most TDM matches, but there are other Scout builds that are still good in the ones it isn't along with the ones it is good in.

[Nemarus]

I actually got to fly vs Nemarus' Speed Scout build tonight and I had some very interesting observations.

 

First of all I noticed he never really tried to attack me, I don't know if this was intentional or he just didn't end up on me at any point. I was usually the one chasing him, not once did I ever get "outrun" this is probably due to the fact that I run Barrel roll and was able to use that to catch up once he took off. The other thing was that every time I locked a Cluster he had to Power dive it, which gave me time to get into position for a kill.

 

Secondly and I think my most important observation was how much easier this type of Scout was to peel off my teammate. I was Duo Queue ing with Verain which was playing Gunship, all I had to do was lock a Cluster and call out that he Power dived then Verain would line up a shot. This event would either force Nemarus to flee from his attack on Verain and give Verain another shot at him while running or he would just eat my next cluster and usually die.

 

 

 

The fact that this build is easier to peel had never really crossed my mind. This could be another reason it is weaker vs Gunships, not necessarily because the Gunships themselves are killing the Scout but because the Scout can't keep up the aggression needed to stop the Gunship from shooting. Power Dives low cooldown is great for evading many missiles but is pretty poor at keep up the aggression on a Gunship.

 

 

As for Blade_mercurials comment on you just get 12km away and turn around this never even got close to happening. If you're talking about flying vs a Retro Sting/Flashfire those usually use Quads/Pods and you wouldn't be any better off fighting at 5k vs them, you would still be at a disadvantage.

 

That match was a bit abnormal.

 

For one, the teams were very uneven. Apart from you and Verain, you had several Eclipse Squadron aces on your team, all of them gunning for me very hard. Rylee-rose was actually giving me a lot more trouble than either you or Verain were. On my team it was pretty much myself, Despon, and then some moderate pilots.

 

As my team was quickly falling behind from the beginning, I had to play very aggressive, and couldn't ever really afford to do a full retreat. And you are correct in that I mainly tried to avoid you and Verain, as I knew you'd be covering each other tightly.

 

The Gunship I did try and target, Cedwic, seemed to be running Fortress Shield, which was actually quite frustrating given my narrow attack windows.

 

Also, power-ups were very stingy. I know you normally are very aggressive about getting them, but I'm not even sure you got that many. They never surfaced on the outer edges of the map, which is where the S2E Scout is very helpful.

 

Interestingly, I still scored higher than Despon in his Sting--and he has a very good Sting. I suspect this is because I was more mobile and able to say out of Verain's firing line more consistently. I don't recall Verain actually scoring that many kills on me--fewer than I expected.

 

All that being said, this morning I played on RK-4X, who has a traditional BLC/DF/Pods Sting for TDM. I had 31 kills and 22 solo kills. I definitely noticed that DF + Power Dive let me stay in the fray a lot longer, even with several Gunships all trying to take me out.

 

I'd probably play it more, but I simply can't abide how hideous a Sting looks with BLC's. Maybe I'll try a Quads + Pods build.

[Fractalsponge]

You can't stand how the sting looks with BLC but you run a blackbolt with laser cannon? Ugh, that "large laser cannon model"... I would've done it all differently.

[nyghtrunner]

I'd probably play it more, but I simply can't abide how hideous a Sting looks with BLC's. Maybe I'll try a Quads + Pods build.

I feel you there, but have to say, I think the Quads look a lot worse on a Sting than the BLCs. BLCs look ridiculous and cartoony, but I just kind of relate it to tiny Cloud lifting those giant swords in FFVII or the like. They look ridiculous, but make me smile. Quads just look awkward and ugly to me.

 

Once again, though, I really wish that the Bloodmark's model and the Sting's model were swapped. I love the look of the Bloodmark, and think it might actually sport those ginormous BLCs with far more grace than the Sting does. But it is what it is, and I've just kind of come to terms with the idea that the Sting is doomed to look ridiculous with anything other than RFLs, which at least allow it to look a bit like a TIE Fighter. The Blackbolt and Bloodmark are the only Imp ship models that I actually "like". But I digress.

 

If you try it, the Quads'N'Pods build on a Sting will probably feel/fly a lot like your Speed Scout, just burstier, and a bit less accurate. If you're good at keeping a bead on an enemy, though, the offensive output is definitely better. Have you actually not tried a quads'n'pods build (surprising)? Or just not rocked it in a while? You've been around for forever, and have been tagged as a great scout pilot since the great long ago, so I'm genuinely curious.

[Delta_V]

I'd probably play it more, but I simply can't abide how hideous a Sting looks with BLC's. Maybe I'll try a Quads + Pods build.

 

That means it's time to come to the light side. We have Flashfires

[Nemarus]

Secondly the difference between these two Scouts shield totals is 325 shields per arc. If anyone thinks 325 shields is worth 9% Passive Evasion I'd love to hear how you think so. To me the 325 shield advantage does not scream to me as having the ability to shrug off a cluster missile. Not to mention I have no idea how much shield energy the active eats up to provide engine energy. (Does anyone know this number?)

 

 

Using S2E's active (once upgraded), gives you 20 engine energy, but drains each arc of 130 shield (10% of Scout base). However, even if one arc is empty, you can still use it, and the remaining arc is still only drained 130 I believe (though I can only judge this by intuition--it may very well drain 260 from the single arc).

 

If neither arc has 130, you cannot use it.

 

Perhaps most importantly, it also triggers shield regen delay, meaning your shields will not recharge for 6 seconds. As S2E's cooldown is also 6 seconds, this means that if you use it off cooldown, you will not regen any shields.

 

However, if you wait an extra 2 seconds, you will regain all the shield energy you lost (since shields regen at 5% per second). That assumes neutral power settings though, which is not usually the case. Usually you'd be running power to engines, which means shield regen rate is 48.75, not 65. So in that case, if you want to regen all the shield you've spent, you have to wait 8.7 seconds between S2E uses (6 for regen delay and cooldown, 2.7 to regen 130).

 

Of course, if we could get S2E on the same ship as a Turbo Reactor, then you could use S2E on cooldown with no cumulative loss of shields. This makes the Shield Powerup very useful for a S2E, since it removes regen delay! You can use S2E without penalty, which turns the Shield Powerup into a soft Engine Powerup.

 

In the end, S2E does give you a very large Shield Capacity for a Scout; but unless you have a Shield Powerup, most of the time you are not going to be at max capacity. Most of the time I'm flying around with barely any shields at all.

[Ryuku-sama]

Secondly the difference between these two Scouts shield totals is 325 shields per arc. If anyone thinks 325 shields is worth 9% Passive Evasion I'd love to hear how you think so. To me the 325 shield advantage does not scream to me as having the ability to shrug off a cluster missile. Not to mention I have no idea how much shield energy the active eats up to provide engine energy. (Does anyone know this number?)

 

Actually.. If you use the +25% shield option you have 650 more shield than a Disto Bolt. And still 325 over a Sting.

 

Test would be to stand out of the match, use StE on CD and look at how many time you can use it. Then divide 1755 by the number of uses.

[Nemarus]

I feel you there, but have to say, I think the Quads look a lot worse on a Sting than the BLCs. BLCs look ridiculous and cartoony, but I just kind of relate it to tiny Cloud lifting those giant swords in FFVII or the like. They look ridiculous, but make me smile. Quads just look awkward and ugly to me.

 

Once again, though, I really wish that the Bloodmark's model and the Sting's model were swapped. I love the look of the Bloodmark, and think it might actually sport those ginormous BLCs with far more grace than the Sting does. But it is what it is, and I've just kind of come to terms with the idea that the Sting is doomed to look ridiculous with anything other than RFLs, which at least allow it to look a bit like a TIE Fighter. The Blackbolt and Bloodmark are the only Imp ship models that I actually "like". But I digress.

 

If you try it, the Quads'N'Pods build on a Sting will probably feel/fly a lot like your Speed Scout, just burstier, and a bit less accurate. If you're good at keeping a bead on an enemy, though, the offensive output is definitely better. Have you actually not tried a quads'n'pods build (surprising)? Or just not rocked it in a while? You've been around for forever, and have been tagged as a great scout pilot since the great long ago, so I'm genuinely curious.

 

Fully agree on the Imperial Scout models. Given the similarties between Blackbolt and Sting, their models should look like minor variations of each other. Bloodmark should be the odd one out, both functionally and aesthetically.

 

Prior to 2.6 (which introduced TDM), my main was a Quads and Pods Sting, but I was perpetually frustrated by it being outperformed by BLC under satellites. In a Q&P Sting, I could clear Gunships and Strikes from under a satellite, but at the end of the day it always took too long to kill a Scout (of any kind) that was under the sat. And I knew from my pub alt (Nemarus) that a Flashfire with BLC's was easy-mode for Domination (and did not look stupid). It could just rush up to a satellite and kill everything at 2km.

 

When 2.6 and TDM were announced, I theorycrafted my S2E Scout build before TDM was even released. It performed better than I ever expected, letting me handily defeat many Flashfire aces who had previously been hard for me to handle. I never looked back from that.

 

RK-4X is my more experimental alt. His Blackbolt is an EMP build for Domination. I went ahead and created a BLC Sting for his use in TDM. Even though I can do very well, I don't really enjoy it. BLC's have never felt "Star Wars" to me. At no point did anyone get space-shotgunned in the face in the movies or in the X-wing or TIE Fighter PC games.

 

I suppose I'll pick an alt and see how Q&P Sting goes in TDM. I suspect I'll do better against Gunships, but I worry I'll have a larger problem with swarms of BLC Flashfires chasing me down.

 

Ultimately I've been resistant to switching to T2 in TDM purely because of reasons of sentiment and fun. Better to be the best in a signature build/style that I conceived and proved on my own, than to be just another T2 Ace flying the same old build everyone else does. And the iconic fun and speed of the S2E T1 is very addictive. It just feels extremely Star Wars. While it may not be optimal, it performs well enough to be support the extra enjoyment and pride I get from flying it

 

Plus it looks cool! And also, when a newbie sees me get 30 kills and asks me, "What are you flying?!" it's nice to be able to say "Blackbolt". Seeing someone do well in a starter ship is encouraging, I think.

Edited January 8, 2015 by Nemarus

[Drakkolich]

Actually.. If you use the +25% shield option you have 650 more shield than a Disto Bolt. And still 325 over a Sting.

 

I was comparing it to the Sting since these are the two Scout builds we have been talking about.

[Drakkolich]

That match was a bit abnormal.

 

For one, the teams were very uneven. Apart from you and Verain, you had several Eclipse Squadron aces on your team, all of them gunning for me very hard. Rylee-rose was actually giving me a lot more trouble than either you or Verain were. On my team it was pretty much myself, Despon, and then some moderate pilots.

 

As my team was quickly falling behind from the beginning, I had to play very aggressive, and couldn't ever really afford to do a full retreat. And you are correct in that I mainly tried to avoid you and Verain, as I knew you'd be covering each other tightly.

 

The Gunship I did try and target, Cedwic, seemed to be running Fortress Shield, which was actually quite frustrating given my narrow attack windows.

 

Also, power-ups were very stingy. I know you normally are very aggressive about getting them, but I'm not even sure you got that many. They never surfaced on the outer edges of the map, which is where the S2E Scout is very helpful.

 

Interestingly, I still scored higher than Despon in his Sting--and he has a very good Sting. I suspect this is because I was more mobile and able to say out of Verain's firing line more consistently. I don't recall Verain actually scoring that many kills on me--fewer than I expected.

 

Alright so in a game where you were outmatched, had to play aggressive and couldn't get that many power ups you're saying that you think it was the mobility from Shield to engine converter that gave you better stats then Despon. That using none of the benefits you always talk about from this build, all you had to do was stay out of Verain's range and you were more effective.

 

Do you not think that you could have achieved staying out of Verain's range with a Distortion Field + Large Reactor Quads and Pods Sting? I'm really failing to grasp where nerfing your damage and tankiness gave you the only possible way to stay out of his range. I don't know maybe I'm missing something here, I feel like you guys are seeing something I'm not.

 

 

Anyways I'm glad this build seems to work so well for you guys. I'm going to call it here on arguing with you guys about it since it doesn't seem to be going anywhere. At any rate it's a very small deviation from the norm and is probably why both sides are having such a hard time figuring out just what the small changes are doing.

[Nemarus]

Alright so in a game where you were outmatched, had to play aggressive and couldn't get that many power ups you're saying that you think it was the mobility from Shield to engine converter that gave you better stats then Despon. That using none of the benefits you always talk about from this build, all you had to do was stay out of Verain's range and you were more effective.

 

Do you not think that you could have achieved staying out of Verain's range with a Distortion Field + Large Reactor Quads and Pods Sting? I'm really failing to grasp where nerfing your damage and tankiness gave you the only possible way to stay out of his range. I don't know maybe I'm missing something here, I feel like you guys are seeing something I'm not.

 

 

Anyways I'm glad this build seems to work so well for you guys. I'm going to call it here on arguing with you guys about it since it doesn't seem to be going anywhere. At any rate it's a very small deviation from the norm and is probably why both sides are having such a hard time figuring out just what the small changes are doing.

 

Who is arguing? Despite this thread's dubious beginnings, I think it's become quite interesting!

 

And as for "staying out of Verain's line of sight", I spent a lot of the match circling low on the outside of the central bowl, where you guys had set up camp. I'd dash in to try and land a kill when I saw opportunities, but you were too quick to peel me. Your whole team was just very dense in the center, so it was hard to dent your formation.

 

Had I found a DO or three (or even some engine/evasion powerups) on the outside of the bowl, I might have been able to actually finish some of those 85% kills. We still would've lost the match, but I would've likely doubled my kill and damage scores.

 

I don't think Despon was able to maneuver around the bowl quite so much. I think he got stuck in furballs between spawn and the bowl and picked off by Gunships while turn-warring.

 

Remember, the difference is not just about the components, but about style. A T2 DF/BLC Scout sticks around and fights people by winning turning wars and jousts. My S2E Scout hits and fades, and usually only kills people who are not targeting it (so honor, very noble, wow )

 

The biggest reason I think I had an advantage over him was simply because a lot of people give up on targeting me as soon as they see my engines and I'm 6km away. You and Rylee-rose were more dogged in your pursuit, but a lot of others weren't. Also, between S2E and Power Dive, Ion Railgun really doesn't slow me down, whereas it could cripple a Sting that isn't using Power Dive.

Edited January 8, 2015 by Nemarus

[Ryuku-sama]

I was comparing it to the Sting since these are the two Scout builds we have been talking about.

 

Yeah.. But that's hardly a fair comparaison. You compare a single component to two components... StE is balanced with Disto not with Disto + Large.

[Drakkolich]

Yeah.. But that's hardly a fair comparaison. You compare a single component to two components... StE is balanced with Disto not with Disto + Large.

 

Alright lets compare Shield to engine + Range sensors vs Distortion field + Large Reactor. Because that is basically the difference.

[nyghtrunner]

Clipped for brevity...

 

 

Plus it looks cool! And also, when a newbie sees me get 30 kills and asks me, "What are you flying?!" it's nice to be able to say "Blackbolt". Seeing someone do well in a starter ship is encouraging, I think.

Encouraging and frustrating at the same time, maybe. Frustrating because replicating a performance like that for newer or moderate players is hard. Encouraging because it's possible. I could maybe do it, but the situation would have to be right, and I'd have to take advantage of food-ships and get lots of weapon power ups to refill rockets. And even then, it's a maybe. I think best I've ever done on a speed scout was 25 or 26 kills with like 5a, 2d.

 

In regards to the rest, as I've said, I've flown with you a couple times, and you don't need to prove your bonafides to me. I know you are quite capable . And I definitely understand wanting to fly the ship you built rather than taking a cookie cutter variation. And it's truly exciting when your ideas work out well. The speed scout is a LOT of fun to fly, although I think I run my build of it a little differently, preferring BR to PD, and Freq Cap over Range (I think you said you use range?). I also go for turning off of the Engine, rather than speed, since I never really feel like I need the speed. I feel like I don't have issues outrunning things even without the speed, because of StE. It is absolutely a lot of fun to fly, though. I flew it a lot when 3-dot broked everything, since it was largely unaffected.

 

As for the QNP Stingfire, Tommm and Scrabs would certainly be better to give you pointers on sat fighting with those builds, since they're probably the best at it I've seen. But I will say that it's possible, but I think Retro (which I readily admit bias towards in all situations) has helped me dogfight under sats with QNP builds. You can often give yourself space and a good bead on the target long enough to shoot them down, since it won't take long with that build. Scrabs actually moved to BLCs + pods while on our server, although I'm not sure if it was because of our meta, or just that he was experimenting. If memory serves, he actually got to the point where he liked BLCs more, and it might very well have been because of superiority in the situation you describe (under sats, since he likes BR over Retro), but I could be wrong about that. BLCs truly are better under a sat, though. And I almost feel like the BLC+Pod or BLC+Clusters is a LOT better than a QNP counterpart when you run out of ammo for the secondaries. I think I prefer QNP for TDM where I can usually choose the field I'm fighting on and don't usually have a problem refilling rockets, but BLC+Pods for Doms simply because they can make such short work of bombers. I dunno, I go back and forth on some of this stuff so much...

 

As for not being very star-wars-y, I'm not sure I agree... There wasn't anything like that in the 3 movies attached to a ship (although the blasters on the Hoth speeders looked big...), but I do feel like BLC-type weapons had a place in the universe on AT-ATs and AT-STs. So there's precedent for having weapons like that in the universe, at least. I use them because I've grown terribly used to them, but there's a lot about BLCs I really don't like, to be honest. They're like training wheels in a lot of ways. I would probably quit using them if they didn't have the armor ignore, or if that wasn't so frigging important because of turrets and CP Bombers in DOMs.

Edited January 8, 2015 by nyghtrunner

[Ardaneb]

I use the S2E converter quite a bit, though I agree with the assessment of it as a niche ship. An good argument can be made for using booster recharge instead of S2E for all of the situations I use it in. The places that I use it are:

 

1. Mobile ace. If we discuss balanced matches, it is almost never equal numbers of advanced players filling out the ranks on both sides. There is often some sort of asymmetry. For example, one advanced player and 7 beginners versus 3 intermediate players and 5 beginners. This leads to pressure on the advanced players to be at more than one place at a time. When I find myself in this situation on the Denon map, the S2E is often the best choice. This is also true if the intermediate players stack Kuat Mesas B with bombers and my team is trying to hold A and C. (The solo ace is not the only combination where the mobility is a priority, it is the simplest to explain.) I think Verain made a reference to this use in an earlier comment.

 

2. TDM distraction. Set up kills for a teammate, usually a gunship teammate. This is more likely to be useful against the gunship with defending battlescout and on the kuat mesas TDM map. Attack the gunship, then LOS it while fleeing the battlescout. The extra boost allows you to focus your attention on the gunship while avoiding the scout. The goal is to keep the gunship focus on you while out of los, so that the gunship is a sitting duck. Also, running the fuel down on an attack formation of 3-8 scouts/strikes is very doable and usually good for the team if not your own stats. However, if I need to make the kills myself in a close match, I always fly a type 2 scout.

 

3. Annoyance escape. A scout wants to focus you the whole match. If you turn on the player, they flee immediately without even trying to engage. You get real annoyed. Switch to this ship and the problem will go away. The opportunity cost (in dps loss due to switching ships) is less in this situation too.

 

4. Fun, fun, fun. Flying the S2E power dive on the Kuat Mesas TDM is unbelievably fun for me. I fly it there most of the time that the match is uneven. Nonstop power dive attacking around mesas: Yes! Try it!