I hate the chancellor

[Galdos]

 

My impression is that the Imp storyline takes place almost immediately after the initial invasion, while the Pub represents a counterattack sometime later.

 

You got this exactly correct. This is made clear in the Agent story line where, by the time you are 3/4ths of the way through Corellia, the Republic has just STARTED to mobilize a force that will HEAD to Corellia.

 

The Trooper and the Consular are both mentioned as not even having made into the system by the time the Agent is 3/4ths in.

[Ghisallo]

My impression is that the Imp storyline takes place almost immediately after the initial invasion, while the Pub represents a counterattack sometime later.

 

 

I get the time gap but it omits that when you do the Black Hole dailies you find out the Empire played scorched earth...if the Republic bled a lot and got little value for the blood, from a purely strategic point of view it can be considered a win. The Republic can claim a win because the Empire did not get a foothold in the Core worlds. It all depends on your priorities and even then which ever one you call a win, it is a pyrrhic victory at that.

Edited March 6, 2015 by Ghisallo

[Sorelus]

But it omits the way the Empire even after that still calls it a victory

A phyrric victory. The type of victory where you eventually lose if you keep winning.

[Ghisallo]

A phyrric victory. The type of victory where you eventually lose if you keep winning.

 

lol before your post hit I added just that. BUT it would be a pyrrhic one for either side. The Empire can't afford to lose troops, the Republic can't afford to lose troops winning back worlds stripped of their resources. In the end neither victory would be a good one, regardless of which one you looked at.

[Sorelus]

lol before your post hit I added just that. BUT it would be a pyrrhic one for either side. The Empire can't afford to lose troops, the Republic can't afford to lose troops winning back worlds stripped of their resources. In the end neither victory would be a good one, regardless of which one you looked at.

The Republic can, the Empire can't. There is more like 10 planets out there which are about as important as Corellia. The Empire repeats Corellia ten times and it has no more forces to spend while the Republic is still intact. It's somewhat simplified but it illustrates the situation where the Republic has considerably larger reserves both militarily and economicaly.

[Ghisallo]

The Republic can, the Empire can't. There is more like 10 planets out there which are about as important as Corellia. The Empire repeats Corellia ten times and it has no more forces to spend while the Republic is still intact. It's somewhat simplified but it illustrates the situation where the Republic has considerably larger reserves both militarily and economicaly.

 

The thing is there aren't 10 more planets out there like Corellia. Planets like Corellia and Balmora are vital to any war effort. I always thought it weird, the way Star Wars has their planets but they seem to make each planet have a singular purpose. Corellia and Balmora are industrial worlds. You then have agricultural worlds. If you take one of those worlds it is HUGE. If you lay waste to it it is equally huge.

 

The idea that the Republic has larger reserves is also not proven. I am not saying it isn't true mind you BUT until how many years ago the Republic did not even know the Empire was still out there, growing and waiting to strike? There really is no way to know for sure which side is ahead or behind in that regard. Since the next addition to the game is going to be Ziost we may get an answer though.

 

On top of that if the State of the Galaxy that was posted on the Bioware web site is correct, the massive counter attack on all fronts by the Republic is stretching their resources to the limit (one of the reasons Saresh wanted Makeb) and now that Baras is Dead (one of the main Sith interested in in fighting, not only in watching him but reading the report your Agent gets on Corellia) and Marr is effectively in charge bashing heads over the in fighting one of the main advantages the Republic had going for it is gone.

 

The Empire’s position has subtly but significantly improved in recent months. This can be traced primarily to two key factors: collection and utilization of isotope-5, and the overall leadership of Darth Marr.

 

Isotope-5 mining operations are ongoing (see “Makeb” entry, below) and providing the Empire with increasing stores of the unusual material. Despite initial expectations, weaponization has not been the Imperial Science Bureau’s primary research vector. Other developments in energy production and gravity manipulation have taken precedence so far. Prototype iso-5 generators have been activated in fifty-seven planetary garrisons and shipyards, drastically reducing the Empire’s reliance on previously-strained resource lines and boosting available frontline assets by 39.7 percent. (See attached list for full deployment details.)

 

This conservative, long-term strategy is consistent with other actions carried out at the behest of Darth Marr. Though there is no official leader of the Dark Council, Marr has become an unofficial figurehead for the Empire, using his sway to maintain a semblance of control over most of his fellow Councilors. The unity and cohesiveness brought about by Marr has been a key aspect of the Empire’s continued survival. Though the Republic is still at an overall statistical advantage, the gap is closing.

 

Marr isn't from what I have seen any better a leader than either Malcolm or Satele and while Saresh can control over all policy but how the fighting gets done is on the former. Isotope 5 is certainly a help but since they aren't making some super weapon out of it that is simply energy independence, important but no a world breaker in this scenario.

 

As such I think the most likely explanation for the state of the war to date is not that the Republic had any straight up statistical advantage to start. The Emperor wanted as bloody and violent a war as possible, he did not care about victory. He wanted as many deaths as needed in order to power his "I will eat the galaxy" plan. So the strategy he forced was one about death period, victory...not so much. Add this to the individual Sith lords being as interested in one upping each other on the battle field than actually winning the war (as the Agent find out on Corellia) and you had a Sith Empire slicing it's own throat and placing itself at a disadvantage by their own actions.

Edited March 6, 2015 by Ghisallo

[Darth_Wicked]

On top of that if the State of the Galaxy that was posted on the Bioware web site is correct, the massive counter attack on all fronts by the Republic is stretching their resources to the limit (one of the reasons Saresh wanted Makeb)

 

To be honest, the State of the Galaxy doesn't make it exactly clear if the overstretching of Republic resources starts to take place prior to or after Makeb.

 

Prior would make more sense but then again, Suresh.

 

and now that Baras is Dead (one of the main Sith interested in in fighting, not only in watching him but reading the report your Agent gets on Corellia) and Marr is effectively in charge bashing heads over the in fighting one of the main advantages the Republic had going for it is gone.

 

The correct term is "removed".

Baras can be killed, arrested or exiled -- the latter Napoleon-style.

 

Edited March 6, 2015 by Darth_Wicked

[Branosaros]

The Republic Equivalent to Chancellor of the Exchequer must be going completely bonkers about this.

 

"Suresh! We were already in a economic depression when we started this war, and now we have to pay to keep up the momentum and attempt to take the Sith Empire's planets back. Can't we just consolid-"

"NO! I want to eradicate the Empire NOW!"

"But they-"

"I DON'T CARE!"

[Ghisallo]

The Republic Equivalent to Chancellor of the Exchequer must be going completely bonkers about this.

 

"Suresh! We were already in a economic depression when we started this war, and now we have to pay to keep up the momentum and attempt to take the Sith Empire's planets back. Can't we just consolid-"

"NO! I want to eradicate the Empire NOW!"

"But they-"

"I DON'T CARE!"

 

Hmmmm that didn't seem to hurt the US in the late 1930's early 1940s when they REALLY started spending money on the military.

[Branosaros]

Hmmmm that didn't seem to hurt the US in the late 1930's early 1940s when they REALLY started spending money on the military.

 

That's because they sent other people the bill... they won, so it all worked out. However, the Republic is just sending stuff at an enemy that has entrenched itself and is actually making sure they can sustain themselves. If Suresh doesn't slow down and work on rebuilding the Republic, they will start haemorrhaging funds, which will mean they fall deeper into debt and eventually won't be able to hold itself together.

[Ghisallo]

To be honest, the State of the Galaxy doesn't make it exactly clear if the overstretching of Republic resources starts to take place prior to or after Makeb.

 

Prior would make more sense but then again, Suresh.

 

I am not using the paper to determine when the Republic started to get stretched, simply to say that based on it, it is seems unlikely that the claim that the Republic has generic access to greater resources is correct. I don't see it specifically stated anywhere. There is a difference to being, at the time of the report at a statistical advantage and having always been at such an advantage.

 

If the Republic at the beginning had this greater generic access then the factors effecting the Imperial Military effort (the Emperor's actual goals effecting strategy, in-fighting among Sith Lords, the albiet brief "New Empire" of Malgus, the dissolution of Imperial Intelligence and the time needed to form Sith Intelligence) would have crippled the Imperial forces and the Republic would be rolling them back on all fronts. It would basically be like Western Europe after D-Day or the Pacific after Midway. Instead a simple change in leadership has suddenly turned the tables and the Empire is now gaining on the Republic statistically.

[Adovir]

I would love to see saresh in line with the star cabal

 

. It could be something like she is a surviving member from the purge by cipher 9 tying to take back some of the power that they lost. It could be because of the star's grooming that she accelerated through the ranks of the senate and became so prominent. Also it could be because of her that kephes has survived so much, collecting some of his DNA at denova and spawning fourth kephes clones.... GASP!!!! 4.0 confirmed the rise of kephess

 

[Branosaros]

I would love to see saresh in line with the star cabal

 

. It could be something like she is a surviving member from the purge by cipher 9 tying to take back some of the power that they lost. It could be because of the star's grooming that she accelerated through the ranks of the senate and became so prominent. Also it could be because of her that kephes has survived so much, collecting some of his DNA at denova and spawning fourth kephes clones.... GASP!!!! 4.0 confirmed the rise of kephess

 

Or, it could be that she was voicing popular opinion. People wanted to see the Empire destroyed, and several people hated the Chancellor for his decision to make peace, and as such Suresh's "Eradicate the Empire" campaign lead her to become his successor...

 

Naaaah, let's go with Kephesses.

[Ghisallo]

That's because they sent other people the bill... they won, so it all worked out. However, the Republic is just sending stuff at an enemy that has entrenched itself and is actually making sure they can sustain themselves. If Suresh doesn't slow down and work on rebuilding the Republic, they will start haemorrhaging funds, which will mean they fall deeper into debt and eventually won't be able to hold itself together.

 

Actually wrong.

 

The US funded the war effort via increased taxation and the savings of the Citizenry via the Bond effort. They received NO reparations from either Germany or Japan.

 

Other countries certainly did get reparations but NO party received reparations in terms of cash. As an example Japan paid reparations to the Phillipines, Indonesia, Burma and South Vietnam but these were only 1 billion dollars worth of payments in goods and services spread out over a decade. On a side note the US invested over 2 Billion in the reconstruction of Japan over a similar period of time so one could argue the US off set or indirectly paid for Japanese reparations.

 

The primary recipients of German reparations were Greece, Israel, The netherlands Poland, Yugoslavia, and the Soviet Union. France did access to some coal mines for a bit but nothing compared to these countries AND again, no cash...goods and services were the forms of "payments" to those who got them and the US was not among them. And again, under the Marshall plan the US invested over 1 Billion Dollars in the Reconstruction of West Germany (East Germany refused funds under orders from Moscow)... Heck they spent 11% of the total budget on Germany, the "bad guy" and 18% on France... With the split up of Germany, West Germany actually got more money per Capita than an Ally.

 

The US actually continued to spend money AFTER the wars in the reconstruction of both nations. The return on this investment? Peace, not reparations.

 

I am not saying that not slowing down could have a serious potential down side. However it will not be on the financial front, the US proved in WWII there are ways around it. The issue will be in blood (does mapower get spread too thin and/or become the victim of attrition), energy reserves (can she produce enough fuel for all the Starships, bases, and manufacturing) and simple access to the raw materials needed for manufacturing. There are ways for the gov't, even after/in a depression to get the cash to pay for these things, ESPECIALLY when the leader and the war are popular as they are currently. The issue is whether or not the goods and services you would buy with said money are available.

Edited March 7, 2015 by Ghisallo

[Branosaros]

Actually wrong.

 

The US funded the war effort via increased taxation and the savings of the Citizenry via the Bond effort. They received NO reparations from either Germany or Japan.

 

Other countries certainly did get reparations but NO party received reparations in terms of cash. As an example Japan paid reparations to the Phillipines, Indonesia, Burma and South Vietnam but these were only 1 billion dollars worth of payments in goods and services spread out over a decade. On a side note the US invested over 2 Billion in the reconstruction of Japan over a similar period of time so one could argue the US off set or indirectly paid for Japanese reparations.

 

The primary recipients of German reparations were Greece, Israel, The netherlands Poland, Yugoslavia, and the Soviet Union. France did access to some coal mines for a bit but nothing compared to these countries AND again, no cash...goods and services were the forms of "payments" to those who got them and the US was not among them. And again, under the Marshall plan the US invested over 1 Billion Dollars in the Reconstruction of West Germany (East Germany refused funds under orders from Moscow)... Heck they spent 11% of the total budget on Germany, the "bad guy" and 18% on France... With the split up of Germany, West Germany actually got more money per Capita than an Ally.

 

The US actually continued to spend money AFTER the wars in the reconstruction of both nations. The return on this investment? Peace, not reparations.

 

I am not saying that not slowing down could have a serious potential down side. However it will not be on the financial front, the US proved in WWII there are ways around it. The issue will be in blood (does mapower get spread too thin and/or become the victim of attrition), energy reserves (can she produce enough fuel for all the Starships, bases, and manufacturing) and simple access to the raw materials needed for manufacturing. There are ways for the gov't, even after/in a depression to get the cash to pay for these things, ESPECIALLY when the leader and the war are popular as they are currently. The issue is whether or not the goods and services you would buy with said money are available.

 

Oooh, Mr. Modern History expert over here, with his fancy-shmancy statistics. Right then, smarty pants, you may have realised that Britain DIDN'T do as well as the Americans, and their entire Empire fell apart after WWII, so it's still going to hurt like hell to fight, and that tied in with the fact that The Republic is the SOUL recipient of all the hurt the Empire can dish out, and the fact that your greatest planets actually got hurt hard: Coreillia was pretty knocked about after the Invasion and Balmorra isn't exactly in a good state, and don't even get me started on how much Taris will set you back: resettlement is expensive, and so are refugees (provided that the Empire let them go).

[Jrr_hypernova]

Oooh, Mr. Modern History expert over here, with his fancy-shmancy statistics. Right then, smarty pants, you may have realised that Britain DIDN'T do as well as the Americans, and their entire Empire fell apart after WWII, so it's still going to hurt like hell to fight, and that tied in with the fact that The Republic is the SOUL recipient of all the hurt the Empire can dish out, and the fact that your greatest planets actually got hurt hard: Coreillia was pretty knocked about after the Invasion and Balmorra isn't exactly in a good state, and don't even get me started on how much Taris will set you back: resettlement is expensive, and so are refugees (provided that the Empire let them go).

 

the british empire didnt collapse due to economic reasons it collapsed due to there weakened army not be able to maintain control of all the colonies who didn't want to be under british control. that and the massive amount of firearms left over from the war the rebel groups could arm them selves with.

[Ghisallo]

Oooh, Mr. Modern History expert over here, with his fancy-shmancy statistics. Right then, smarty pants, you may have realised that Britain DIDN'T do as well as the Americans, and their entire Empire fell apart after WWII, so it's still going to hurt like hell to fight, and that tied in with the fact that The Republic is the SOUL recipient of all the hurt the Empire can dish out, and the fact that your greatest planets actually got hurt hard: Coreillia was pretty knocked about after the Invasion and Balmorra isn't exactly in a good state, and don't even get me started on how much Taris will set you back: resettlement is expensive, and so are refugees (provided that the Empire let them go).

 

Well I said the US proved my point...nothing about Britain. So let's open with a passive aggressive attack against me because it was shown you didn't know what you were talking about? I could go on about the issue you raise as well and how you obviously don't understand (or are greatly simplifying) how and why GB lost its empire in order to create a Straw man argument to still try and defend you previously wrong o e. However its clear that would simply lead to another passive aggressive attack and new straw man argument. As such not worth the time.

Edited March 8, 2015 by Ghisallo

[Branosaros]

Well I said the US proved my point...nothing about Britain. So let's open with a passive aggressive attack against me because it was shown you didn't know what you were talking about? I could go on about the issue you raise as well and how you obviously don't understand (or are greatly simplifying) how and why GB lost its empire in order to create a Straw man argument to still try and defend you previously wrong o e. However its clear that would simply lead to another passive aggressive attack and new straw man argument. As such not worth the time.

 

Passive aggressive? I was making fun of the fact you've actually read up on your facts. You've just misinterpreted as an insult. Do you honestly think I would use the words "fancy-shmancy" in anything other than jest? If so, you're sadly mistaken. However, I was simply curious as to what you would say about the fact that the Empire fragmented. And to that person who believes it was because we lost our army, that's nonsence, in most places across the Empire they used local forces to police the populace (see India) and the British Army in itself was never particularly large.

 

And by the way, I am simply pointing out that: War is expensive. You can't deny that by saying "oh, but the US recovered". Who says that the Republic will recover as the US did? The US was never on the front lines, and in the end it never had trouble sustaining itself while at war as other countries did.

 

And it isn't a "straw man" argument as the argument was about whether the Galactic Republic is suffering from the war (Which it is, it has been in economic depression since the start of the war and the fact they tried to nationalise Czerka proves this.) I was simply switching example to something that I was more comfortable with, as I have little to no knowledge of American modern History, since I specialize in Ancient History, and I know the fact that the Empire collapsed after the first world war and they were forced to retreat out of India due to economic difficulties after the war.

 

And just to say: I am sorry if I offended. My sense of humour is severely set on irony, so if I insult someone, it usually means I mean the opposite. I am in fact a little impressed you can slam my argument, though the fact you were unable to follow through is a pity.

Edited March 8, 2015 by Branosaros

[Ghisallo]

I didn't "read up" on my facts though (well maybe I did 20 odd years ago). Many moons ago I changed careers but originally I was a History/Sec Ed major with a minor in Political science. My main project to finish my degree was a paper on the aftermath of WWII. I know the facts because I studied the topic and wrote about it in great detail. As such your irony was kinda lost on me sorry (my father is also a History professor who has wrote a few books AND we are both Churchill freaks, I can count how many times I have read the Last Lion series by William Manchester and Paul Reid, though I am dubious of rereading Defender of the realm (1200 plus pages lol.). Sorry then if I misinterpreted the comment...hope this explains why I thought that though.

 

The thing you miss about GB and the collapse of Empire is that it is more complicated than that. In the rest of the Empires history the Empire actually helped mitigate and rebuild the economic might of GB. Thing is after WWI and WWII you had two big differences. First the Crown had enlisted colonial troops to fight the Central Powers and then the Axis. They armed them, trained them and used propaganda about fighting against tyranny yada, yada, yada. So by the end of WWII you basically have 2 generations of trained soldiers, with lots of weapons flowing around saying "ummm about tyranny? What is this empire?" Add to the fact that travel and communication was speeding up and that idea spread. So instead basically the unrest in the colonies (sometimes violent like in Palestine and Malaya, other times peaceful like Gandhi's movement in India) created a scenario where the productivity of the colonies was undercut and didn't even rise to the level where it could sustain the expense of dealing with the unrest. On top of that when Churchill was put out to pasture and Labour took over they began the push to peacefully disengage from colonies once stable anticommunist governments were set up because they were ideologically opposed to Empire. Economics were to an extent an excuse for Labour to pursue it's ideologically based pro-decolonialization agenda.

 

This last bit (ideology and not economics) is evidenced by the fact when the Conservatives, starts covert support for Israel to attack Egypt, to then give GB and France the excuse to move in the "keep the peace...oh an btw we are gonna retake the canal too." (the Suez Canal that Nasser had Nationalized). Ike got pissed he wasn't consulted and would support the operation when PM Eden got around to telling him about. Concerned that it would bring the USSR into it...Ike threatened to sell off all the US Reserves of British £'s. This and UN pressure forced Britain to withdraw its troops from the canal. This was pretty much the death knell for any Conservative hopes of maintaining the Empire.

 

So like anything money had something to do with it, it was A LOT more complicated.

Edited March 8, 2015 by Ghisallo

[Branosaros]

I didn't "read up" on my facts though (well maybe I did 20 odd years ago). Many moons ago I changed careers but originally I was a History/Sec Ed major with a minor in Political science. My main project to finish my degree was a paper on the aftermath of WWII. I know the facts because I studied the topic and wrote about it in great detail. As such your irony was kinda lost on me sorry (my father is also a History professor who has wrote a few books AND we are both Churchill freaks, I can count how many times I have read the Last Lion series by William Manchester and Paul Reid, though I am dubious of rereading Defender of the realm (1200 plus pages lol.). Sorry then if I misinterpreted the comment...hope this explains why I thought that though.

 

The thing you miss about GB and the collapse of Empire is that it is more complicated than that. In the rest of the Empires history the Empire actually helped mitigate and rebuild the economic might of GB. Thing is after WWI and WWII you had two big differences. First the Crown had enlisted colonial troops to fight the Central Powers and then the Axis. They armed them, trained them and used propaganda about fighting against tyranny yada, yada, yada. So by the end of WWII you basically have 2 generations of trained soldiers, with lots of weapons flowing around saying "ummm about tyranny? What is this empire?" Add to the fact that travel and communication was speeding up and that idea spread. So instead basically the unrest in the colonies (sometimes violent like in Palestine and Malaya, other times peaceful like Gandhi's movement in India) created a scenario where the productivity of the colonies was undercut and didn't even rise to the level where it could sustain the expense of dealing with the unrest. On top of that when Churchill was put out to pasture and Labour took over they began the push to peacefully disengage from colonies once stable anticommunist governments were set up because they were ideologically opposed to Empire. Economics were to an extent an excuse for Labour to pursue it's ideologically based pro-decolonialization agenda.

 

This last bit (ideology and not economics) is evidenced by the fact when the Conservatives, starts covert support for Israel to attack Egypt, to then give GB and France the excuse to move in the "keep the peace...oh an btw we are gonna retake the canal too." (the Suez Canal that Nasser had Nationalized). Ike got pissed he wasn't consulted and would support the operation when PM Eden got around to telling him about. Concerned that it would bring the USSR into it...Ike threatened to sell off all the US Reserves of British £'s. This and UN pressure forced Britain to withdraw its troops from the canal. This was pretty much the death knell for any Conservative hopes of maintaining the Empire.

 

So like anything money had something to do with it, it was A LOT more complicated.

 

Okay, I stand corrected.

[Rabenschwinge]

Hm. Well, it is true that passing the star port on Taris still gives me nightmares.

 

But from my main character's perspective (a female twi'lek jedi shadow) I'd say I don't know her well enough to like her or dislike her, much less love or hate her, but I do respect her. She seemed like the right person to get things done on Taris anyway and I usually backed her in the conversations on Taris. She is certainly not a convenient leader from the perspective of the Jedi order and I can imagine that she did not like it when the Jedi Order basically commandeered the Republic's forces for a joint operation with the enemy, but the situation demanded action and Revan is Jedi (and Sith) business.

Edited March 11, 2015 by Rabenschwinge
typo

[Ausstig]

Oh man, given how she acts in the 'Rise of the Emperor' Ziost planet

 

She is a massive idiot

 

"Don't tell me how to run a war!"

[Exosasa]

Oh man, given how she acts in the 'Rise of the Emperor' Ziost planet

 

She is a massive idiot

 

"Don't tell me how to run a war!"

 

I'm a little surprised Imps couldn't choke her through the holo.

[Ausstig]

I'm a little surprised Imps couldn't choke her through the holo.

 

I feel that this was setting her up as a future enemy, what with her own spy and being very 'bull headed'

[Exosasa]

I feel that this was setting her up as a future enemy, what with her own spy and being very 'bull headed'

 

I won't be surprised when pub players have a DS choice to kill her.