Rebels vs Empire

[tunewalker]

So as we all know the Empire had a great amount of Resources, but the Rebels technically werent anything to scoff at. Just look at Episode IV. "The rebel Alliance is to Well equiped"

 

so the questions are, in an overall sort of view, what advantages did the empires vehicle largely have, what advantages did the Rebels Vehicles have. Starships to starships advantages of both. Tactics? Training? what were the differences between the Rebels and the Empires combat philosophies and such.

 

I would love to hear as much as I can about this. Maybe we can do this for wars through out star wars. Since every war has had "near equal" factions through out.

 

 

Edit: some things I know were things like the Rebels need for Gorilla tactics since they lacked the Empires numbers and were not QUITE as equiped as the Empire was.

 

Also things like the Empire prefered Tread based tanks and Walkers, while the Rebels used a lot of Repuslor tech. How did that shape their tactics and the like?

 

What were the advantages for Treaded and Walkers, vs the Advantages of Repulsor tech.

Edited January 6, 2015 by tunewalker

[Kaedusz]

what were the differences between the Rebels and the Empires combat philosophies and such.

 

just look at real world examples

 

in a nutshell most of the time the case is numbers,firepower,professionalism, vs highly motivated mobile guerrilla fighters

Edited January 6, 2015 by Kaedusz

[Wolfninjajedi]

Pretty much the Empire was superior across the board, save for a couple of things, most being...

 

1. Rebels used unorthodox/guerrilla tactics.

 

2. They had Imperial defectors, which helped greatly with training, Imperial plans, procedure and so on.

 

3. Shielded fighters, this allowed them to rely on smaller numbers which given that they were small in numbers, helped greatly. Also the experience gained from pilots, were better than Imperial pilots given the latter could die more often than not. The RA also had Imperial pilots, noted to be the best pilots in the galaxy with above average reaction time.

 

The walkers vs repulsorlift, the walkers and tread tanks were more powerful and more armored compared to the repulsorlift vehicles used by the Rebels. The Rebels did have tracked vehicles and the like, but considering their MO of course they wouldn't use them as great in number, they had to be fast and quick.

Edited January 6, 2015 by Wolfninjajedi

[tunewalker]

Pretty much the Empire was superior across the board, save for a couple of things, most being...

 

1. Rebels used unorthodox/guerrilla tactics.

 

2. They had Imperial defectors, which helped greatly with training, Imperial plans, procedure and so on.

 

3. Shielded fighters, this allowed them to rely on smaller numbers which given that they were small in numbers, helped greatly. Also the experience gained from pilots, were better than Imperial pilots given the latter could die more often than not. The RA also had Imperial pilots, noted to be the best pilots in the galaxy with above average reaction time.

 

The walkers vs repulsorlift, the walkers and tread tanks were more powerful and more armored compared to the repulsorlift vehicles used by the Rebels. The Rebels did have tracked vehicles and the like, but considering their MO of course they wouldn't use them as great in number, they had to be fast and quick.

 

With the Repulsor and Walker/ Treaded since as you said they needed to be "fast and quick" did the repuslor's usually move faster then most walker's and treaded or did they just provide no advantage.

 

Also I was looking at Imperial Army blasters vs Rebels Blasters, The main one for the Empire seemed to be the E-11, and of course the powerful E-web, but the A280 seemed the more common one for the Rebels. Seems like the Rebels Might have had, on average, better hand held weapons.

 

Did the empire use Missile launchers in mass? or did they just feel that was a waste of resources with their massively more powerful vehicles, so used them more sparingly? I know the rebels used them alot because like you said Guerilla tactics were necisarry and moving a rocket launcher on the shoulder of 1 person is more "stealthy" then moving an entire tank. I also know it would not have been uncommon for the Storm commando's but what about the rest? that didnt really fit Empire tactics did it?

 

 

I would think vehicle wise and troop training wise it would fit the 2's "combat style" like the Rebels would likely utilize more foot soldiers with varying hand weapons while the empire utilized Foot soldiers with armored assistance more often. When the rebels did use armor support I would figure it would be around speed hit and run, while when the Empire used it more around dominance then speed.

 

I am of course not meaning Pure Special Forces vs Special forces. Or toughness/ firepower vs Toughness/fire power, but the Rebels had to have SOME form of advantage. Other wise even a fast assault would end in failure wouldnt it?

Edited January 6, 2015 by tunewalker

[Wolfninjajedi]

With the Repulsor and Walker/ Treaded since as you said they needed to be "fast and quick" did the repuslor's usually move faster then most walker's and treaded or did they just provide no advantage.

 

Also I was looking at Imperial Army blasters vs Rebels Blasters, The main one for the Empire seemed to be the E-11, and of course the powerful E-web, but the A280 seemed the more common one for the Rebels. Seems like the Rebels Might have had, on average, better hand held weapons.

 

Did the empire use Missile launchers in mass? or did they just feel that was a waste of resources with their massively more powerful vehicles, so used them more sparingly? I know the rebels used them alot because like you said Guerilla tactics were necisarry and moving a rocket launcher on the shoulder of 1 person is more "stealthy" then moving an entire tank. I also know it would not have been uncommon for the Storm commando's but what about the rest? that didnt really fit Empire tactics did it?

 

 

I would think vehicle wise and troop training wise it would fit the 2's "combat style" like the Rebels would likely utilize more foot soldiers with varying hand weapons while the empire utilized Foot soldiers with armored assistance more often. When the rebels did use armor support I would figure it would be around speed hit and run, while when the Empire used it more around dominance then speed.

 

I am of course not meaning Pure Special Forces vs Special forces. Or toughness/ firepower vs Toughness/fire power, but the Rebels had to have SOME form of advantage. Other wise even a fast assault would end in failure wouldnt it?

 

Both sides used a variety of different blasters, the Empire though were equipped with the best weapons available. The E-11 being such one, the A280 rifle being a strong one too. They all used a number of different blasters, so in that regard neither really had an advantage, although at times Rebels were using old blaster rifles and slugthrowers.

 

The Empire did use missile launchers and other heavy weapons, but in a more sparingly manner considering they have heavily armed/armor vehicles, but they did use those weapons when called.

 

Scout Troopers also used stealth, they were trained survivalists, excellent snipers, so on.

 

The Rebels had to move and be quick with their attacks otherwise they weren't gonna last. This is shown a few times actually in the EU, where Rebels got their **** kicked in by an Imperial force and they weren't able to do much against them but try and fight, in the end they ended up defeated.

 

The Rebels advantage, was that they were constantly on the move, doing quick hide and run attacks, among the other things I mentioned.

Edited January 6, 2015 by Wolfninjajedi

[tunewalker]

Both sides used a variety of different blasters, the Empire though were equipped with the best weapons available. The E-11 being such one, the A280 rifle being a strong one too. They all used a number of different blasters, so in that regard neither really had an advantage, although at times Rebels were using old blaster rifles and slugthrowers.

 

The Empire did use missile launchers and other heavy weapons, but in a more sparingly manner considering they have heavily armed/armor vehicles, but they did use those weapons when called.

 

Scout Troopers also used stealth, they were trained survivalists, excellent snipers, so on.

 

The Rebels had to move and be quick with their attacks otherwise they weren't gonna last. This is shown a few times actually in the EU, where Rebels got their **** kicked in by an Imperial force and they weren't able to do much against them but try and fight, in the end they ended up defeated.

 

The Rebels advantage, was that they were constantly on the move, doing quick hide and run attacks, among the other things I mentioned.

 

Oh Ok, so while both DID have access to quite a bit, the advantages the rebels had were basically ONLY because they kept on the move and used those advantages often. Basically the advantage of the Rebels was HOW they waged the war, less what they waged it with. Since the Empire had it Or better, but certain things were just more commonly Used by the Rebels because they found themselves in NEED of it more often.

 

Why did the commander in Episode IV say the rebels were "to well equiped" what do you think would make him say that.

 

I am just wondering how the Rebels were making any head way and bringing any one to their cause or winning any battles at all if the empire purely out numbered them, out equiped them, out smarted them, AND out preformed them heck even the Idea of out run them with how fast Star Destroyers are and if the walkers could move just as fast as the repulsor vehicles. Part of me is thinking there is SOMETHING is missing from the rebels. Fighters couldnt have been the ONLY thing they had going for them.

 

 

Edit: re looking at number 1 and number 2, it seems like there is a margin of on Average the Rebels were better trained and were actually outsmarting the Empire. And had JUST ENOUGH equipment to make that enough for the war to be a long and for them to gather supporters.

 

 

Edit 2: Similar with their fighter pilots surviving battles with their policy of either gaining decisive victories OR retreating rather then losing troops help with gaining experienced soldiers as much as the fighter method helped with gaining experienced Pilots. Or what about the Mon Cal ships toughness did that ultimately add to that "experience" department you think?

 

Its easy to see the Empires advantages, but I seem to have to fish for how the WINNING faction won . Yes I know palp's death had something to do with it, but the Rebels werent exactly "losing" before that, as far as I knew they were gaining a little bit more ground every day, it was rough and with out any death stars or any Pesky force users involved the war could have gone on for many more years, but eventually wouldnt the result of still been the same?

Edited January 6, 2015 by tunewalker

[Wolfninjajedi]

Oh Ok, so while both DID have access to quite a bit, the advantages the rebels had were basically ONLY because they kept on the move and used those advantages often. Basically the advantage of the Rebels was HOW they waged the war, less what they waged it with. Since the Empire had it Or better, but certain things were just more commonly Used by the Rebels because they found themselves in NEED of it more often.

 

Why did the commander in Episode IV say the rebels were "to well equiped" what do you think would make him say that.

 

I am just wondering how the Rebels were making any head way and bringing any one to their cause or winning any battles at all if the empire purely out numbered them, out equiped them, out smarted them, AND out preformed them heck even the Idea of out run them with how fast Star Destroyers are and if the walkers could move just as fast as the repulsor vehicles. Part of me is thinking there is SOMETHING is missing from the rebels. Fighters couldnt have been the ONLY thing they had going for them.

 

 

Edit: re looking at number 1 and number 2, it seems like there is a margin of on Average the Rebels were better trained and were actually outsmarting the Empire. And had JUST ENOUGH equipment to make that enough for the war to be a long and for them to gather supporters.

 

 

Edit 2: Similar with their fighter pilots surviving battles with their policy of either gaining decisive victories OR retreating rather then losing troops help with gaining experienced soldiers as much as the fighter method helped with gaining experienced Pilots. Or what about the Mon Cal ships toughness did that ultimately add to that "experience" department you think?

 

Its easy to see the Empires advantages, but I seem to have to fish for how the WINNING faction won . Yes I know palp's death had something to do with it, but the Rebels werent exactly "losing" before that, as far as I knew they were gaining a little bit more ground every day, it was rough and with out any death stars or any Pesky force users involved the war could have gone on for many more years, but eventually wouldnt the result of still been the same?

 

They were well equipped in the fact, that they had X-wing fighters, state of the art during that time. Much better than what pirates would have at their disposal.

 

That's right really, they had enough equipment to fight the Empire, not for long however, hence why they were constantly on the move. They slowly gained support, from those willing to fight for the freedom of the galaxy. Also gaining Imperial defectors which greatly helped out the Rebellion.

 

In fact honestly, the Rebels were losing a lot throughout the war, much moreso than the Empire, they just won more key victories.

 

In fact really, they only won the Battle of Yavin due to

 

1. Tarkin was arrogant, so he wasn't going to unleashed a full compliment of TIEs. Vader had to step in with his squadron.

 

2. Han arriving, if Han hadn't arrived the Rebellion was done because no one else would have been able to make the shot that Luke did. There was only....3 fighters left, Luke, Wedge and a Y-wing.

 

Wedge was taken out and too damaged to do anything, of course he wouldn't have made the shot regardless, Luke would have been killed and that Y-wing wouldn't have made the shot at all and be shot down anyway.

 

In fact the Battle of Endor was won due to luck too, this is actually stated that the Rebels won due to luck in meeting and befriending the Ewoks.

 

So no...the Rebellion would have lost, if the Rebels didn't get lucky or the Imperials weren't being arrogant.

Edited January 6, 2015 by Wolfninjajedi

[tunewalker]

They were well equipped in the fact, that they had X-wing fighters, state of the art during that time. Much better than what pirates would have at their disposal.

 

That's right really, they had enough equipment to fight the Empire, not for long however, hence why they were constantly on the move. They slowly gained support, from those willing to fight for the freedom of the galaxy. Also gaining Imperial defectors which greatly helped out the Rebellion.

 

In fact honestly, the Rebels were losing a lot throughout the war, much moreso than the Empire, they just won more key victories.

 

In fact really, they only won the Battle of Yavin due to

 

1. Tarkin was arrogant, so he wasn't going to unleashed a full compliment of TIEs. Vader had to step in with his squadron.

 

2. Han arriving, if Han hadn't arrived the Rebellion was done because no one else would have been able to make the shot that Luke did. There was only....3 fighters left, Luke, Wedge and a Y-wing.

 

Wedge was taken out and too damaged to do anything, of course he wouldn't have made the shot regardless, Luke would have been killed and that Y-wing wouldn't have made the shot at all and be shot down anyway.

 

In fact the Battle of Endor was won due to luck too, this is actually stated that the Rebels won due to luck in meeting and befriending the Ewoks.

 

So no...the Rebellion would have lost, if the Rebels didn't get lucky or the Imperials weren't being arrogant.

 

Well, both Yavin and Endor was kind of "death stars and Force users" wasnt it?

 

The Death Star forced their hand in the Yavin Incident.... and Endor they were tricked by Palps (though to be fair he didnt use the force to do so) and again, the SECOND Death Star forced their hand, for me I would call that "death Star and Force User shenanigans" I was meaning more the REST of the time during the war.

 

Arrogance I would call a weakness personally . lol I am talking about the other portions of the war. They were GAINING ground and GAINING supporters between Yavin and Endor werent they? Even GAINING resources.... so werent they technically getting into a better and better spot to fight the empire? Would that not be "winning"?

 

Not saying the empire didnt hit bases and destroy Rebels left and right, but wasnt the Rebellion growing in resources faster then the Empire could stop them growing. Wasnt the rebels doing more "damage" to the empire in those in betweens, since the Empire WASNT growing and the Rebels were?

Edited January 6, 2015 by tunewalker

[Wolfninjajedi]

Well, both Yavin and Endor was kind of "death stars and Force users" wasnt it?

 

The Death Star forced their hand in the Yavin Incident.... and Endor they were tricked by Palps (though to be fair he didnt use the force to do so) and again, the SECOND Death Star forced their hand, for me I would call that "death Star and Force User shenanigans" I was meaning more the REST of the time during the war.

 

Arrogance I would call a weakness personally . lol I am talking about the other portions of the war. They were GAINING ground and GAINING supporters between Yavin and Endor werent they? Even GAINING resources.... so werent they technically getting into a better and better spot to fight the empire? Would that not be "winning"?

 

Not saying the empire didnt hit bases and destroy Rebels left and right, but wasnt the Rebellion growing in resources faster then the Empire could stop them growing. Wasnt the rebels doing more "damage" to the empire in those in betweens, since the Empire WASNT growing and the Rebels were?

 

Yes, yes and yes, they were gaining all those things and it's shown with them getting much better star cruisers and the like by ROTJ. They were getting bigger, but even still, they weren't a match for the Empire in a straight up engagement.

 

Also not really, the Rebels won some, Empire won more if I recall my timeline correct and battles.

 

The Empire was growing, they too had supporters and the like. They had much more manpower/resources than the Rebels did.

Edited January 6, 2015 by Wolfninjajedi

[tunewalker]

Yes, yes and yes, they were gaining all those things and it's shown with them getting much better star cruisers and the like by ROTJ. They were getting bigger, but even still, they weren't a match for the Empire in a straight up engagement.

 

Also not really, the Rebels won some, Empire won more if I recall my timeline correct and battles.

 

The Empire was growing, they too had supporters and the like. They had much more manpower/resources than the Rebels did.

 

I know the Empire still had better resources the entire time. Thats why they ARE the Empire. I am just saying if it kept going at the same rate, the Rebellion WAS gaining ground, there was a reason to that wasnt there? Even Xizor was hedging his bets by "helping" both the Empire and the Rebellion because even the most powerful crime lord in the galaxy wasnt quite sure who would come out on top.

 

Is that NOT a sign of "equal but not" kind of. Like the Empire's resources were meaning less and less with the Moral of the Rebels and the ground they were making up, in resources and supporters. They didnt have enough to challenge out right, but given time would they have? Isnt that the reason the Death Star's were being made? to cull those uprisings for good.

 

I guess the question now is.... In what way did the Empire Largely wage their war, wasnt it something like any time they FOUND a rebel base they went in a pretty much wiped it out, unless the rebels could escape. While the rebels basically just "harassed" didnt they? Or did they actually TAKE planets ever? when they "Took" a planet it was the large populace of the planet Secretly helping them more then out right if I remember correctly. What was the difference in HOW they fought?

[Wolfninjajedi]

I know the Empire still had better resources the entire time. Thats why they ARE the Empire. I am just saying if it kept going at the same rate, the Rebellion WAS gaining ground, there was a reason to that wasnt there? Even Xizor was hedging his bets by "helping" both the Empire and the Rebellion because even the most powerful crime lord in the galaxy wasnt quite sure who would come out on top.

 

Is that NOT a sign of "equal but not" kind of. Like the Empire's resources were meaning less and less with the Moral of the Rebels and the ground they were making up, in resources and supporters. They didnt have enough to challenge out right, but given time would they have? Isnt that the reason the Death Star's were being made? to cull those uprisings for good.

 

I guess the question now is.... In what way did the Empire Largely wage their war, wasnt it something like any time they FOUND a rebel base they went in a pretty much wiped it out, unless the rebels could escape. While the rebels basically just "harassed" didnt they? Or did they actually TAKE planets ever? when they "Took" a planet it was the large populace of the planet Secretly helping them more then out right if I remember correctly. What was the difference in HOW they fought?

 

Xizor didn't know of Palpatine's plan which would have worked if not for the Ewoks, the Rebels weren't going to win the battle. Xizor played smart though, by going for both sides, in the unlikely event(which it was) the Rebels somehow managed to win.

 

Given time? Kind of unlikely, the Empire had the better manufacturers and their military numbered in the tens of trillions. They could probably have gained enough to stand up in small battles, but not large ones.

 

Also yes and the Rebels did also take planets, mostly by as you said the populace helping out, making strikes against the Imperial bases, using unorthodox tactics and so on.

 

The Empire hit hard and fast, they went the more conventional route in taking down an enemy, which was with troops, air support and ground support, pretty much what RL armies do. By comparison, Rebels did hit and run, they seeded Rebellion into planets, they took out key support and so on.

[Silenceo]

Also things like the Empire preferred Tread based tanks and Walkers, while the Rebels used a lot of Repuslor tech. How did that shape their tactics and the like?

 

What were the advantages for Tread and Walkers, vs the Advantages of Repulsor tech.

 

Interesting topic, though I figured I would address this one in more detail.

 

Basics:

 

Hover: Able to maneuver over most terrain effortlessly, though best if kept relatively level. Often equipped to lightly armored vehicles, sometimes compensating by using shields. Good on general purpose, such as for the MTT that needed to be able to carry Trade Federation troops wherever needed without trouble.

 

Treads: Basically the go-to for heavily armored vehicles that could take a beating. Examples include the NR-N99 Persuader droid tank, Canderous tank, and of course Rebel Artillery. Treads are great for heavier vehicles because it helps them to shoulder the weight evenly, without risking mishaps with repulsors should they be damaged. Sturdy, reliable, and overall great for front line duty.

 

Walkers: When flight is not an option, and angles are too steep for hover vehicles, Walkers tend to be a better choice due to being able to use claws that latch onto the ground to keep them in place. Examples include AT-TE, AT-ST, and the fearsome AT-AT. The key thing to note regarding walkers is that they are able to traverse nearly any terrain, as well as deal with things could hinder the other types more. While relying on legs brings its own weaknesses, it brings more versatility and maneuverability than treads. But less speed than hover.

 

Weaknesses:

 

Hover: To be quite blunt, electromagnetic fields could interfere and cause such vehicles to be only a turret, as well as heavier gravity possibly straining the engine to maintain altitude. One planet they were noted to be less effective on, was Jabiim. It is due to the planets unstable electromagnetic field and frequent lightning storms that caused hover craft to be unreliable, at such times walkers or treads would be preferred.

 

Treads: While they are incredibly durable and reliable, they were slow and not capable of snappy maneuvers or turning in place too effectively like Walkers or Hover craft. They also suffered at the hands of mines due to how low to the ground most vehicles equipped with treads tended to be. While there were specific mines to counter hover vehicles, walkers usually had the safety of elevation so the crew for the most part would live.

 

Walkers: While having legs for movement can be quite useful, and universally capable, they did suffer terrible draw backs that made them better not used on models intended to be tankish unless the legs were reinforced heavily. The key weakness as we all are aware, is balance. For each leg lost the vehicle will severely become less effective, or as we saw on Hoth, if they lose balance they could topple over all together.

 

Strengths:

 

Hover: These tend to be fast, able to traverse rough terrain easily, and able to even go over water. They made great use for strike or skirmishing vehicles, that when combined with heavy weaponry, proved devastating such as when used in the TX-130T fighter tank.

 

Treads: While slower than the other two, and despite their weakness to traps and fast targets, are extremely good at pushing on through damage as well as clearing obstacles. Often used in heavy-set frames, such as the Canderous-class assault tank, which was aided by being so low to the ground when it fired a shot, helping it to stay in control and on target. Whereas hover and walkers would have to worry about balance, push back more, and other such factors.

 

Walkers: Great as support craft due to elevation advantage, good average of speed between the two types, and able to make quick work of difficult terrain. There is a reason so many All Terrain vehicles are walkers... For example, the relatively slow AT-AT could get up to 60 kph, with the smaller AT-ST being able to achieve around 90. However, while there are treads that are faster, there are not many tread based vehicles that retain the amount of control walkers do.

 

Strategies:

 

Hover: Skirmish, hit and run, and guerrilla tactics.

 

Treads: Front line units, tanks, and heavy weaponry.

 

Walkers: Transport, scouting, and support.

 

Empire Vehicle Tactics vs Rebel Vehicle Tactics

 

Empire: While both had access to all three, for the most part we see walkers and variants of such as the more popular and favored method. This goes hand in hand with how they always wanted to bring as many troops to the party as possible, as well as being prepared for any situation at a moments notice. Though, they did at times make use of treads or hover craft, for the most part that was for specialized missions or objectives.

 

Rebels: As the Empire used primarily walkers, the Rebels made constant use of hover craft for the aforementioned strengths. Allowing them to strike hard and fast, and vanish without a trace. They had a few tread vehicles they made use of as well, such as their artillery in EaW, but those tended to be too slow to evade the Empire for long. True to their nature, they relied on quick attacks to achieve their goals before retreating in their speedy craft.

 

 

 

I am sure you wanted something that went into further examination of the actual tactics and such, but as it would take ages to dig in the wiki, or me getting the Imperial hand book, I figured I would give some summaries to exemplify and such how each works and how they tended to be used. I understand if you want someone else to take a whack at it.

[Wolfninjajedi]

Stuff

 

This is nice really, so just pointing to Sil for that. I'm tired, it's late so good night.

[tunewalker]

That's bassically EXACTLY what I wanted vehicle wise. It defintely shows WHY the empire chose Walkers over Repulsor craft, and it shows why their second choice was Treaded more often then it was repulsor.

 

 

It also shows exactly why the Rebels Chose repuslor craft.

 

I guess the next question is what WAS the primary hand weapon of the rebels and the empire.

 

I was under the impression the primary rifle for the Empire was the E-11 and the Primary Rifle for the Rebels was the A280. I know they used other ones but I mean from a "majority use" sort of thing, and why did each side choose those? If it follows suit for the previous I would assume the Rebels chose what ever it was that would allow them more devistating rapid assaults, while the empire again would keep themselves ready for anything, prefering to use their numbers to their advantage and using weapons that were better used in mass, and were good in nearly any situation.

Edited January 6, 2015 by tunewalker

[Wolfninjajedi]

That's bassically EXACTLY what I wanted vehicle wise. It defintely shows WHY the empire chose Walkers over Repulsor craft, and it shows why their second choice was Treaded more often then it was repulsor.

 

 

It also shows exactly why the Rebels Chose repuslor craft.

 

I guess the next question is what WAS the primary hand weapon of the rebels and the empire.

 

I was under the impression the primary rifle for the Empire was the E-11 and the Primary Rifle for the Rebels was the A280. I know they used other ones but I mean from a "majority use" sort of thing, and why did each side choose those? If it follows suit for the previous I would assume the Rebels chose what ever it was that would allow them more devistating rapid assaults, while the empire again would keep themselves ready for anything, prefering to use their numbers to their advantage and using weapons that were better used in mass, and were good in nearly any situation.

 

Pretty much, not much else to it.