Why should we choose maras/sent for pvp? Is there any point compared to sin/shadow?

[calamatiesend]

I play both shadow and sent and think sent is fine. The difference between the two is that if I m in a bad group in pvp I change game play to go to the nodes away from group to avoid frustration.

 

In your post you mostly describe regs..... any class controlled by a good player can do well in regs, my issues with our lack of ability to stay on target/sub par DCD shows its head especially in ranked against more competent players since it is just too easy to shut us down/focus us.

 

Also your views on shadows are interesting..... I have one, it is my second main and I wonder how you came to those conclusions that they are both similar.....

[calamatiesend]

Sorry but no. Anyone that thinks that sent/mara currently is fine has some twisted sense of reality.

The only reason i don't complain as much is because 90 % of the playerbase don't play their class optimally and therefore i stand a chance on my mara. Playing against good players of pretty much ANY class in todays meta and we are toast.

Not so weird considering most classes now have so much immunity and controll that being pretty much the sole melee class left in the game makes you wanna pull your hair out when you can't followup.

Ironically we also sacrifize our dps in order to be able to move around a little.

 

Fury tree i might consider okay though. Still not on par but works. More mobility with the extra leap makes a difference aswell as good burst. However playing a spec that the jugg can play blindfolded and kill me with because of his 3 lives makes it sort of lackluster, not to mention how boring i find it honestly.

 

Oh, and just because you kill bad shadows the class is fine ? lol.. Ill pick up my assassin and destroy your little sent without even thinking and i don't even play assassin.

 

Quoted for truth. This is a very accurate post.

[TicTicTic]

In your post you mostly describe regs..... any class controlled by a good player can do well in regs, my issues with our lack of ability to stay on target/sub par DCD shows its head especially in ranked against more competent players since it is just too easy to shut us down/focus us.

 

Also your views on shadows are interesting..... I have one, it is my second main and I wonder how you came to those conclusions that they are both similar.....

 

I will give you that point that in ranked sents/mars have the least annoying defences abilities that make them a target to focus 1st if their team mates are known hard to kill players, lots of times the target goes above the sent/mar.

 

I never said shadows/sins are the same? Didn't you read the bit I said I play them different?

 

I played at launch and mar/sent as well as PT/Vans were fotm, they had there time in the sun now sages/sorcs are fotm.

 

I ll put in another way I have levelled my mando to level 55 and up until I got net good sins/shadows and ops could trouble me as well as the top sorcs. Once I got net it was just the top sorcs and this 1 watchmen spec mar who gave me trouble.

 

He beat me just as much as I beat him while I face stomped all sins and ops. Only if shield and ad were down did I lose to a sin. And if I did lose to a sin they were almost dead from getting me.

 

But like the person above said that is in regs. But are people asking to go back to fotm standing? That's what it sounds like to me.

[TicTicTic]

You describing a situation where you have everything going for you. Skilled teammates (especially skilled healers, and people to peel for you) and completely incompetent enemies. And then saying that because of these conditions, the class is fine.

 

Id say youre trolling if it werent for the way you are writing. Its too involved, incoherent and detailed to be a likely troll, but I could be wrong. If so, props to you.

 

Oh, and we all know about Guarded by the Force. Its not some big secret. If you think that the ability is useful, it says less about the strength of the ability than it does about the absolute incompetence of the person or persons you are fighting.

 

Finally, if you actually believe that maras/sents are in a better place than shadows right now....

 

I didn't say better I said fine. Perfect balance is a hard thing and sins/shadows and sents/mars play different and have a different role, saying that 3 sents can blow up a target and chain stun just as well as 3 shadows.

 

And it wasn't Guarded by the force it is Pacify. So many sents/mars never use it.

 

Name 1 class that you don't struggle if other team is better then yours? Sents/mars can suffer a little more then shadows because stealth means shadows can pick which fights to enter. Saying that sents/mars do have good abilities to get out of bad situations but most don't use them.

Edited January 7, 2015 by TicTicTic

[Dyvim]

Because some players prefer playing classes that somewhat take skills and more challenging?

 

I think the point is that it is stupid to play a class that puts teams your are on at a blatant disadvantage. There is nothing skillful about playing an underpowered class. In fact, one could easily argue that the first measure of skill is picking a class that gives you the best chance to win and support your team. If all things were equal, balance would be a bigger factor in this game - in other words, it would exist - and it would be about your strengths and preferences as a player...instead, it IS all about poor design and large imbalance between classes. Challenging, yeah, perhaps. Also frustrating and disadvantageous.

 

Its like one guy getting an M-4 and the other a slingshot. For a game to be fun, it has to be fair, and in MMOs that means balance has to be something other than a foreign concept...i

Edited January 7, 2015 by Dyvim

[Dyvim]

I didn't say better I said fine. Perfect balance is a hard thing and sins/shadows and sents/mars play different and have a different role, saying that 3 sents can blow up a target and chain stun just as well as 3 shadows.

 

And it wasn't Guarded by the force it is Pacify. So many sents/mars never use it.

 

Name 1 class that you don't struggle if other team is better then yours? Sents/mars can suffer a little more then shadows because stealth means shadows can pick which fights to enter. Saying that sents/mars do have good abilities to get out of bad situations but most don't use them.

 

What you're ignoring is the inherent weaknesses in having to be in melee range...and STAY in melee range, in a game with more CC than believable, and with having a building resource mechanic...again, meaning you have to get in melee and use "building" skills a lot of the time. Serenity Shadows, and many other classes in this game have NO such constraints. Melee is at a huge disadvantage in this game. Sents have LITTLE, comparatively, to overcome the innate disadvantages - melee range and resource building - that so many other classes just don't have to worry about.

Edited January 7, 2015 by Dyvim

[Zadtro]

I am not saying they are the same to play, they have different play styles but the primary job is to take down healers, the sin/shadow has a huge advantage. They can sneak past players then jump at the right time, mara/sent can be seen from a mile away with the big leap, you can force camo to get in close but it is a waste of a cooldown to use it before the fight has even started.

 

Sin can also guard a node or a door and hold off until help arrives.

[AlrikFassbauer]

I think the point is that it is stupid to play a class that puts teams your are on at a blatant disadvantage.

 

Which might be the META behind so many people deciding to play FOTM OP clases ...

[mmmbuddah]

I would love to see something given to maras/sents. When you look at wat we are supposed to do in pvp it is generally kill healers or burn down tanks or dps quickly, that's pretty much what we are made for.

 

Comparing us to say a sin/shadow in terms of what we can do utility wise this is what we are looking at:

 

Assassin/Shadow | Marauders/Sentinels

 

Hard stun x2 | Force choke

2 min deflection | 3min saber ward

Immune to tech and force | 99% reduction

Root, root & root again | Crippling slash

Force slow |

In combat stealth break | Force camo

Single mez | Aoe mez

Recklessness | Berserk

Stealth | 90% accuracy reduction

Overload saber | Cloak of pain

Force speed | Predation

teleport | Leap

taunts

 

These are skills then are shared across the disciplines and when looking at them, which class do you find more useful? Who is better at jumping a healer, maras/sents do not have anything out standing enough to make it a better choice over other classes.

 

We don't offer that much of advantage other then speed boost when most of the time there is a guardian/jugg giving out 50% boost with reduction to everyone else so that is kinda covered most of the time anyway.

 

So i am wondering if anyone else has noticed these things because i have lvled them both to 60 and generally one is just better then the other.

In lowbies maras are better, in 60 tho, yeah, they are certainly worse.

[AlrikFassbauer]

This is the result of PvP forum talk here :

 

Hi all, I just re subscribed and currently I have a fully decked out marauder from hutt expansion. He had all the cool stuff and looked just the way I wanted. However with reading the forums it sounds like they've been destroyed in both pve and pvp and I was wondering if the marauder story in this expansion is worth spending time on, or if I should start another character.

 

From the looks of it there doesn't seem to be a fix for them in the foreseeable future so if they are really as bad as the forums claim, maybe I should stay away from him and re Roll?

 

A full "thank you" top the PvP community to create FOTMs in the first place - simply by talk.

Edited January 7, 2015 by AlrikFassbauer

[Zadtro]

In lowbies maras are better, in 60 tho, yeah, they are certainly worse.

 

When I went from 55-60 I was able to hold my own, got pummel gear on at 60 and still getting ripped to shreds. We need a breaker every minute or we just can stunned to death.

[SlimGenre]

my thoughts...

a single target class will never end the round with the same numbers as a dot spreader, and they shouldn't, and I'm ok with that.

 

My best round since 3.0 on my sentinel was just over 800k dps in combat. I play all 3 specs every night, although watchmen usually does the most dmg per round in 8v8's if you know how to use your dot spread correctly and a little extra healing helps. It was a round where every member of my team applauded the 2 healers in ops chat after the game AND it was a civil war map that was just one long fight at mid... basically the best possible case scenario. My best round as a sin was 1.8 mil dps on a Novarre Coast, with an average team... and we lost...

 

honestly, I'm ok with that damage discrepancy because of the first point I made above, a dot spreader should never underperform a single target dps class on the overall scoreboard at the end. Both toons I'm comparing are close to equally geared, although a slight edge to my sin, who has 2 more reaver pieces than my sentinel.

 

My recommendations...

 

- Saber ward reduced from 3m to 2m to match sin/shadow. I agree that even in a bad team a sent/mara CAN be a wrecking ball... for about 20 seconds... every 3 minutes... but then has to be very careful between CD's while other classes do not. Survivability is obviously the issue we're all talking about on every thread in this forum.

- Transcendence/predation changed to be more similar to force speed, perhaps reduced to a 3s speed boost, but on a 20s cooldown.

- All 3 spec's should get a viable dot, burning for watchman, bleeding for combat, and an internal for concentration. Dot should be at moderate range, like clashing blast/devastating blast and also proc something, perhaps smash, since it's gone from OP to useless. I do think it was appropriate to give it a nerf as it was a little ridiculous previously (who doesn't miss those 15k smash crits on 5 players at a time). Either make smash an autocrit on a dotted target and surrounding targets, keep it at 7k-8k, and give it a 15s CD, OR make smash a dot spreader with NO autocrit, and a 15s CD as above.

 

-OR- (a completely different approach)

 

Since a lot of games are moving away from the holy trinity, but SWTOR is not, make sentinel a "true" glass cannon again. Give back an AoE 15k+ attack and a proc to make it autocrit. We've got the glass, give us the cannon.

 

Dear BW... do NOT nerf the current supposed "fotm OP" classes... buff the other ones!!!

[Belpheghor]

my thoughts...

a single target class will never end the round with the same numbers as a dot spreader, and they shouldn't, and I'm ok with that.

 

My best round since 3.0 on my sentinel was just over 800k dps in combat. I play all 3 specs every night, although watchmen usually does the most dmg per round in 8v8's if you know how to use your dot spread correctly and a little extra healing helps. It was a round where every member of my team applauded the 2 healers in ops chat after the game AND it was a civil war map that was just one long fight at mid... basically the best possible case scenario. My best round as a sin was 1.8 mil dps on a Novarre Coast, with an average team... and we lost...

 

honestly, I'm ok with that damage discrepancy because of the first point I made above, a dot spreader should never underperform a single target dps class on the overall scoreboard at the end. Both toons I'm comparing are close to equally geared, although a slight edge to my sin, who has 2 more reaver pieces than my sentinel.

 

My recommendations...

 

- Saber ward reduced from 3m to 2m to match sin/shadow. I agree that even in a bad team a sent/mara CAN be a wrecking ball... for about 20 seconds... every 3 minutes... but then has to be very careful between CD's while other classes do not. Survivability is obviously the issue we're all talking about on every thread in this forum.

- Transcendence/predation changed to be more similar to force speed, perhaps reduced to a 3s speed boost, but on a 20s cooldown.

- All 3 spec's should get a viable dot, burning for watchman, bleeding for combat, and an internal for concentration. Dot should be at moderate range, like clashing blast/devastating blast and also proc something, perhaps smash, since it's gone from OP to useless. I do think it was appropriate to give it a nerf as it was a little ridiculous previously (who doesn't miss those 15k smash crits on 5 players at a time). Either make smash an autocrit on a dotted target and surrounding targets, keep it at 7k-8k, and give it a 15s CD, OR make smash a dot spreader with NO autocrit, and a 15s CD as above.

 

-OR- (a completely different approach)

 

Since a lot of games are moving away from the holy trinity, but SWTOR is not, make sentinel a "true" glass cannon again. Give back an AoE 15k+ attack and a proc to make it autocrit. We've got the glass, give us the cannon.

 

Dear BW... do NOT nerf the current supposed "fotm OP" classes... buff the other ones!!!

 

Bravo sir.....sound post, spot on

[Zadtro]

my thoughts...

a single target class will never end the round with the same numbers as a dot spreader, and they shouldn't, and I'm ok with that.

 

My best round since 3.0 on my sentinel was just over 800k dps in combat. I play all 3 specs every night, although watchmen usually does the most dmg per round in 8v8's if you know how to use your dot spread correctly and a little extra healing helps. It was a round where every member of my team applauded the 2 healers in ops chat after the game AND it was a civil war map that was just one long fight at mid... basically the best possible case scenario. My best round as a sin was 1.8 mil dps on a Novarre Coast, with an average team... and we lost...

 

honestly, I'm ok with that damage discrepancy because of the first point I made above, a dot spreader should never underperform a single target dps class on the overall scoreboard at the end. Both toons I'm comparing are close to equally geared, although a slight edge to my sin, who has 2 more reaver pieces than my sentinel.

 

My recommendations...

 

- Saber ward reduced from 3m to 2m to match sin/shadow. I agree that even in a bad team a sent/mara CAN be a wrecking ball... for about 20 seconds... every 3 minutes... but then has to be very careful between CD's while other classes do not. Survivability is obviously the issue we're all talking about on every thread in this forum.

- Transcendence/predation changed to be more similar to force speed, perhaps reduced to a 3s speed boost, but on a 20s cooldown.

- All 3 spec's should get a viable dot, burning for watchman, bleeding for combat, and an internal for concentration. Dot should be at moderate range, like clashing blast/devastating blast and also proc something, perhaps smash, since it's gone from OP to useless. I do think it was appropriate to give it a nerf as it was a little ridiculous previously (who doesn't miss those 15k smash crits on 5 players at a time). Either make smash an autocrit on a dotted target and surrounding targets, keep it at 7k-8k, and give it a 15s CD, OR make smash a dot spreader with NO autocrit, and a 15s CD as above.

 

-OR- (a completely different approach)

 

Since a lot of games are moving away from the holy trinity, but SWTOR is not, make sentinel a "true" glass cannon again. Give back an AoE 15k+ attack and a proc to make it autocrit. We've got the glass, give us the cannon.

 

Dear BW... do NOT nerf the current supposed "fotm OP" classes... buff the other ones!!!

 

Good ideas but 3 second predation to group every 20 secs might seem a bit crazy, only if the immunity worked for us.

 

Just make predation like hydraulic overrides but only give the movement immunity to the one who uses it.

 

The damage is fine, if we did any more we would be focused constantly, sometimes we get ignored but if we did anymore damage we would just be a focus fodder. We need some defense, like actual defense, have a few secs immunity to damage without it costing us health, like dodge that the operatives have, they loose nothing for dodging everything. Same thing essentially.

 

Undying rage/guarded by the force should be like a purgatory state, 99% damage and healing reduction so no loss to hp but a healer doesn't get 4-6 secs to heal you to full.

[Zadtro]

Does anyone recon that a dev will respond with potential class changes?

[Zadtro]

I tried rage last night for the whole night and I have to say the damage wasn't all that bad. I was still being focused every now and again but was able to get a couple of hits out before I died xD

 

I have to say I really do prefer carnage, just need some dam immunity to keep up with everyone else :/

[johanlofdahl]

Guys isn't the answer quite obvious? It's the new legit wintrading. "Opposing team" signs maras and you get free win.

[Zadtro]

Guys isn't the answer quite obvious? It's the new legit wintrading. "Opposing team" signs maras and you get free win.

 

1 mara/sent on a team is manageable and with objectives can be useful with speed boost but when you have a couple on 1 team trying to take objective with 2 players dieing very quickly can be a nightmare because of the disadvantage.

[AngusFTW]

1 mara/sent on a team is manageable and with objectives can be useful with speed boost but when you have a couple on 1 team trying to take objective with 2 players dieing very quickly can be a nightmare because of the disadvantage.

If you have a good healer 2 good marauders will not die much if at all if they play well unless the other team mas some major stackage of classes that would kill anything fast..

 

emphasis on.. if you have a good healer

Edited January 13, 2015 by AngusFTW

[alexsamma]

Good ideas but 3 second predation to group every 20 secs might seem a bit crazy, only if the immunity worked for us.

 

Just make predation like hydraulic overrides but only give the movement immunity to the one who uses it.

 

The damage is fine, if we did any more we would be focused constantly, sometimes we get ignored but if we did anymore damage we would just be a focus fodder. We need some defense, like actual defense, have a few secs immunity to damage without it costing us health, like dodge that the operatives have, they loose nothing for dodging everything. Same thing essentially.

 

Undying rage/guarded by the force should be like a purgatory state, 99% damage and healing reduction so no loss to hp but a healer doesn't get 4-6 secs to heal you to full.

 

The only 100% immunites in the game are dodge/evasion roll and force barrier, the first requires the scoundrel/op to give up dpsing during the roll (as well mobility unless they are rolling towards their target) and the second is a self stun that completely takes the user out of the game - standard dodge/evasion purges and gives the scoundrel/op immunity to "white" damage but they can still be hit by force/tech attacks (resilience/shroud for sins is the reverse).

 

Undying/GBTF is the only DCD that gives (for all intents and purposes) 100% immunity to damage while allowing the player to retain full control of their character.

Edited January 13, 2015 by alexsamma

[Saikochoro]

You choose mara for pvp because you have TWO lightsabers....duh

[nitroyoshi]

here i edited ur list a bit and i compared

 

Hard stun x2 > Force choke

2 min deflection > 3min saber ward

Immune to tech and force > 99% reduction

root or soft stun depending on discipline > Crippling slash

Force slow < dual saber throw

In combat stealth break = Force camo (if you get the discipline w/added time it can b used as a great escape and it also has a shorter cd for non-escape purposes)

2 Single mez < Aoe mez

Recklessness < Berserk

Stealth > 90% accuracy reduction

Overload saber < Cloak of pain

Force speed > Predation

teleport < Leap

taunts >

[Metthew]

here i edited ur list a bit and i compared

In combat stealth break = Force camo (if you get the discipline w/added time it can b used as a great escape and it also has a shorter cd for non-escape purposes)

teleport < Leap

I'll disagree with you on these:

 

- Force Camo does not break combat. The stealth break does. This means that sins can break combat, use a healing stim and the adrenal, and then pop back into combat to be able to use it a third time if they survive by then.

- The teleport is a defensive skill that one can use to exit combat and recuperate. The now-infamous 4-Hatred in GR video shows some great examples of how it can be used. Phase walk can also be dropped down on nodes/doors for defense in ACW, NC and Voidstar.

 

Force Camo technically has an "advantage", that it doesn't break by taking damage. But it's low duration makes that a bit irrelevant, and when a Marauder sufficiently hurt pops it I can keep hurting them by popping Suppressive Fire at where I think they just went.

Edited January 14, 2015 by Metthew

[Mega_Fallos]

here i edited ur list a bit and i compared

 

hard stun x2 > force choke

2 min deflection > 3min saber ward

immune to tech and force > 99% reduction

root or soft stun depending on discipline > crippling slash

force slow < dual saber throw

in combat stealth break = force camo (if you get the discipline w/added time it can b used as a great escape and it also has a shorter cd for non-escape purposes)

2 single mez < aoe mez

recklessness < berserk

stealth > 90% accuracy reduction

overload saber < cloak of pain

force speed > predation

teleport < leap

taunts >

 

iq<10

Edited January 14, 2015 by Mega_Fallos

[xX-Archangel-Xx]

"Why should we choose maras/sent for pvp? Is there any point compared to sin/shadow?"

 

Probably not, but thrash-thrash-thrash-demolish, isn't something u can enjoy for real