bmharrison Posted December 21, 2014 Share Posted December 21, 2014 Yes, much has been said, to the point of trolls and flames, about multiple gunships with bomber support in TDM. There are those that say it's completely unfair, and others that claim it's simply a matter of L2P and/or strategizing with teammates. My opinion falls somewhere in the middle. I don't think any team is necessarily invincible, but, during TDM in particular, using 3 or more gunships provides a significant tactical advantage, especially when paired with one or more bombers for defense. The fact that most of these players are fairly-skilled pilots increases the challenge. I know that the first two responses to this situation are: a) get an equally-skilled team, and b) fly your own gunship. The problem is that I'm often pugging b/c I don't really know too many of the other pilots, and though I'm above average at most ships, the gunship is a weak spot for me. What I'm looking for is the best non gunship ship/build to go against gunships/bombers solo, assuming little to no team support. My battlescout works pretty well against 1 or 2 gunships, but the limited range weapons make it hard to deal with 3 or more gs and multiple mines/drones. I thought the Pike/Quell would be the answer with its versatile missiles and better survivability, but I can't seem to find the right combination of offense and defense to take on the gunships AND the bombers. The other option I've tried is the T1 scout with EMP field, but I'm not the greatest shot with rocket pods, and its inherent squisiness often gets me killed before I can do much damage. So, I am again asking for advice, stories, etc. on how people might deal with this situation- anything, no matter how oddball it sounds, would be appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drakkolich Posted December 21, 2014 Share Posted December 21, 2014 Very good question but kind of long to answer, I'll give it my best shot. In the current meta we have a loose rock paper scissors going on, it's kind of hard to see because this is a team game and you very rarely get that mystical 1v1 everyone seems to think the game plays out in. Assuming equally skilled players the ship counters are as follows: Scout counters Gunship Gunship counters Bomber Bomber counters Scout What happens in your scenario of Gunship/Bomber teams is they are the absolute counter to Scouts. Because the Gunships no longer have to move when being chased they can just do circles evade for a bit and the Bombers take care of the Scouts for them. Once the Scouts have been neutralized as a threat nothing can get rid of the Gunships except other Gunships. This is where the Sniping wars start that a lot of players do not enjoy. If we look back at the meta I explained earlier the counter to Bombers is Gunships and the counter to Gunships is Scouts, but here's where it gets tricky the best strategy to counter Bombers and Gunships is All Gunships, because Bombers get countered so hard by Gunships you will just outnumber theirs. Once the Bombers are done for your Scouts go in and mop up the Gunships. This is why the Bomber/Gunship strategy is so popular, everyone feels like the Bad guy for hopping on the best ship to deal with the problem and instead just throws the game by saying well I'm not getting on a Gunship just cause they are. I hope that wasn't too much information. Please keep in mind this is only for Team Death Match and there are other strategies that can work. This is just an example of the meta at the moment. In very simple terms. 8 Scouts > 8 Gunships 4 Bombers + 4 Gunships > 8 Scouts 8 Gunships > 4 Bombers + 4 Gunships 4 Scouts + 4 Gunships > 8 Gunships 4 Bombers + 4 Gunships > 4 Scouts + 4 Gunships Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verain Posted December 21, 2014 Share Posted December 21, 2014 Drako nails it. It's about responding to enemies and being able to field your best possible team, not just stacking some ship type. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fractalsponge Posted December 21, 2014 Share Posted December 21, 2014 Drak gets pretty much all of the points for team counters. If you're completely flying solo (not recommended for queue length if nothing else) then I'd go with your usual battlescout. Normally I'd go with TT, but in an absolute solo situation vs many gunships, I'd take booster recharge and quads/pods. At that point, harass with quads - even if you don't kill you can disrupt their formation. In TDM, booster will let you gobble DOs. If you're not running from or charging at the gunships, you should probably be looking for those in this scenario. You can try a max burst TT/quads/pods/wingman berseker kind of approach, but it's all or nothing, and you have to have really good aim and hope your target doesn't have awesome reflexes. Honestly, there is no answer to the question of "how can I always kill 3 gunships in a solo ________". If you found an answer to that, that means that gunships would be underpowered. Team play (doesn't have to be VOIP premade, blah, blah, but more complementary ship types) is the real answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blade_mercurial Posted December 21, 2014 Share Posted December 21, 2014 I agree with everything Drako said. However, if you find yourself pugging and you realize an all gunship team is impossible (because you or your teammates either do not have them or do not want to play them or whatever), then what you can try is a blackbolt/novadive built for speed and long range attack. It won't win you the game, and you will still probably die a bit, but at least you will have the satisfaction of taking out more enemies than can take out you. What you need: (regular) lasers (shield dam T5), rocket pods (dot T5), targeting telemetry (crit T5), shield engine converter, power dive (speed T3), evasion hull, range capacitors, regen thrusters and dampening sensors. Either concentrated fire or wingman make good co-pilot abilities. Next you absolutely have to hunt down power-ups before you engage. Ideally DO and engine boost before making an attack run. Then you find an approach either to the side, above or below the main focus of the enemy gunships. Target priority is railgun drones first, then any missile drones/mines in your chosen attack run path. Kill these at your maximum range before you are spotted, then pop your offensive cooldowns and take out any enemies who happen to be somewhat lined up in front of you, then boost away, using LOS to avoid gunship retaliation. Rinse and repeat (don't forget to hunt down the power ups before hand). If someone tries to peel you (like a scout or strike) boost away and use your superior speed to outdistance them (fall off their radar). Unless its just 1 enemy and they chase you out of gunship range, then you should be able to kill them easily Its unlikely this strategy will win you the match (unless your opponents are really terrible, I guess), but at least you can cause some frustration on their side and maybe score more kills than your own deaths... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmharrison Posted December 21, 2014 Author Share Posted December 21, 2014 Thank you very much for those replies. I of course wasn't expecting a "magic build" that would easily nullify one of the most difficult situations in the game, but you all have given me some new insights that I believe will be helpful in at least making a contribution and not feeling uselessly blasted out of the sky over and over. Drak/Verain, your points are absolutely valid and obviously come from much experience. In a perfect team up, if one group decides to jump on 6 or 7 gunships, the other team of equal skill does the same and the playing field levels. I don't have any problem choosing a gunship myself for the benefit of the team, but as I said, I really do lack the skill of many gs pilots, and therefore don't contribute much before getting blown out of the sky by the better gunships. That being said, which gs is considered the best to field in TDM? I don't want to carry two in my hangar (for reasons already mentioned), so I've been going with the T3. This one seems to work best for me b/c when I get rushed by scouts/strikers, I can switch to missiles and use my scout skills to have a chance to survive or even win the dogfight. However, I often feel undermatched when I fly the T3 against a standard T1 gunship. Is this by design, or is it just highlighting my lack of gs skill? Oh, and Xi'ao, your advice is good as always and yes, the real answer is team play, but for some reason you're the only one who seems to want me on imp side, and on pub side when there are teams (which seems rare lately) they seem to be a set group of 4, 8, or 12 that don't have much interest in outsiders. So, I often go it alone- but thanks for letting me be your "charity case" ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted December 21, 2014 Share Posted December 21, 2014 (edited) Thank you very much for those replies. I of course wasn't expecting a "magic build" that would easily nullify one of the most difficult situations in the game, but you all have given me some new insights that I believe will be helpful in at least making a contribution and not feeling uselessly blasted out of the sky over and over. Drak/Verain, your points are absolutely valid and obviously come from much experience. In a perfect team up, if one group decides to jump on 6 or 7 gunships, the other team of equal skill does the same and the playing field levels. I don't have any problem choosing a gunship myself for the benefit of the team, but as I said, I really do lack the skill of many gs pilots, and therefore don't contribute much before getting blown out of the sky by the better gunships. That being said, which gs is considered the best to field in TDM? I don't want to carry two in my hangar (for reasons already mentioned), so I've been going with the T3. This one seems to work best for me b/c when I get rushed by scouts/strikers, I can switch to missiles and use my scout skills to have a chance to survive or even win the dogfight. However, I often feel undermatched when I fly the T3 against a standard T1 gunship. Is this by design, or is it just highlighting my lack of gs skill? Oh, and Xi'ao, your advice is good as always and yes, the real answer is team play, but for some reason you're the only one who seems to want me on imp side, and on pub side when there are teams (which seems rare lately) they seem to be a set group of 4, 8, or 12 that don't have much interest in outsiders. So, I often go it alone- but thanks for letting me be your "charity case" ! Honestly the way I handle a T1 in a T3, is to be a scout. Nose up Power Dive Towards them and light them up with clusters and Burst, in a pure sniping war the T1 will always be better simply for Ion. If you do get the first shot however your usually in a good spot. Edited December 21, 2014 by tunewalker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryuku-sama Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 Honestly the way I handle a T1 in a T3, is to be a scout. Nose up Power Dive Towards them and light them up with clusters and Burst, in a pure sniping war the T1 will always be better simply for Ion. If you do get the first shot however your usually in a good spot. T3 is a sniper??? I thought its only role was to be a platform using Inter, Cluster and BLC together!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drakkolich Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 Thank you very much for those replies. I of course wasn't expecting a "magic build" that would easily nullify one of the most difficult situations in the game, but you all have given me some new insights that I believe will be helpful in at least making a contribution and not feeling uselessly blasted out of the sky over and over. Drak/Verain, your points are absolutely valid and obviously come from much experience. In a perfect team up, if one group decides to jump on 6 or 7 gunships, the other team of equal skill does the same and the playing field levels. I don't have any problem choosing a gunship myself for the benefit of the team, but as I said, I really do lack the skill of many gs pilots, and therefore don't contribute much before getting blown out of the sky by the better gunships. That being said, which gs is considered the best to field in TDM? I don't want to carry two in my hangar (for reasons already mentioned), so I've been going with the T3. This one seems to work best for me b/c when I get rushed by scouts/strikers, I can switch to missiles and use my scout skills to have a chance to survive or even win the dogfight. However, I often feel undermatched when I fly the T3 against a standard T1 gunship. Is this by design, or is it just highlighting my lack of gs skill? Oh, and Xi'ao, your advice is good as always and yes, the real answer is team play, but for some reason you're the only one who seems to want me on imp side, and on pub side when there are teams (which seems rare lately) they seem to be a set group of 4, 8, or 12 that don't have much interest in outsiders. So, I often go it alone- but thanks for letting me be your "charity case" ! In a pure sniping war which is what will happen in Bomber/Gunship game if you swap to Gunship to counter it the Mangler/Quarrel (T1) is completely superior to the other Gunships. There are a few reasons for this, the biggest is access to the armor component to give yourself more evasion then the other Gunships. The second is the access to Ion Railgun which lets you cripple not only their shields with the first shot but also lowers their weapon pool so they can't shoot back as much. Someone mentioned using the Jurgoran/Condor to dogfight the other Gunship to win the fight that way, while this does work in theory there are a few holes in the strategy. For one you run into the exact same problem as the Scout does if they are using the Bomber/Gunship strategy you can't get in close and are forced into a sniping fight. The second reason is if they aren't using Bombers to cover their Gunships they probably are using Scouts then, which means when you start dogfighting the other Gunship all that Gunship has to do is wait for you to die to the Scouts covering them. You are right there is no magic build however if you are dead set on attempting to counter a Bomber/Gunship strategy while being in a Scout just pick off the Gunships that aren't near Bombers this is really the only thing you will be able to do. If they all stack on top of the Bombers giving you no targets then the only thing you can do to help your team is protect your Gunships so they can take out the Bombers for you. It is very very hard to carry a game with this strategy, because you are heavily relying on your teammates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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