Why no Lightfoils or Crossguard Sabers?

[LegendaryBlade]

So, one of the cool things that an MMO like SWTOR provides is the ability to really include a lot of different variations of sabers or armor in to the lore. Yet, we're lacking several variations on Lightsabers from the books, comics, or tabletop. One notable example, from the Old Republic timeline, is the LightFoil. A saber meant to be used with actual proper fencing technique rather that the flippy slashy nonsense most force sensative use (no offense to people who like that). The Elegent Lightsaber! http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Lightfoil

 

Another good example is the Crossguard Saber, which is simply practical. The fact that most lightsabers don't have catchguards or crossguards is already kinda silly. http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Crossguard_lightsaber

Edited November 30, 2014 by LegendaryBlade

[Rhyltran]

So, one of the cool things that an MMO like SWTOR provides is the ability to really include a lot of different variations of sabers or armor in to the lore. Yet, we're lacking several variations on Lightsabers from the books, comics, or tabletop. One notable example, from the Old Republic timeline, is the LightFoil. A saber meant to be used with actual proper fencing technique rather that the flippy slashy nonsense most force sensative use (no offense to people who like that). The Elegent Lightsaber! http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Lightfoil

 

Another good example is the Crossguard Saber, which is simply practical. The fact that most lightsabers don't have catchguards or crossguards is already kinda silly. http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Lightfoil

 

The problem with Light Foils is that there handle is too small. Why is this an issue? It's simple. Jedi classes wield their lightsaber in two hands. Some of the attacks for sith warriors are the same. The issue here is that it's designed to be used with Maakashi which none of our characters use. I've always been of the opinion that it would be neat if bioware added a "Duelist" advanced class that uses medium/light armor in the Sith Warrior/Jedi Knight classes which is a dps class who fights with a makaashi style flare.

[LegendaryBlade]

The problem with Light Foils is that there handle is too small. Why is this an issue? It's simple. Jedi classes wield their lightsaber in two hands. Some of the attacks for sith warriors are the same. The issue here is that it's designed to be used with Maakashi which none of our characters use. I've always been of the opinion that it would be neat if bioware added a "Duelist" advanced class that uses medium/light armor in the Sith Warrior/Jedi Knight classes which is a dps class who fights with a makaashi style flare.

 

I have to admit, i'd be pretty hype for a duelist class of any sort. My biggest issue with the franchise has always been the ridiculous swordplay choreography, but as I discovered that the EU had more down to earth and proper styles like Makaashi i've been interested in seeing them actually put in to practice with real choregraphy and proper technique. Less flips more parries and repostes.

 

Jedi Duelist pls.

[dcaleb]

What is the point of a lightsaber cross guard? Another lightsaber would just slice right through the emitter it if it slide down your blade.

[LegendaryBlade]

What is the point of a lightsaber cross guard? Another lightsaber would just slice right through the emitter it if it slide down your blade.

 

It's more of a catchguard than a cross guard, the emitter brings the energy out at an angle. The opposing blade wouldn't meet contact with the emitter. For a straightguard you could also likely just bring the emitter in tight.

[Eythiofr]

Hello.

 

There are a few good reasons why the Lightfoil is not a very good weapon in SW lore.

 

First off, the Lightfoil is clearly designed for use by practitioners of the Makashi style. The foil could be used in other forms but it would not be as effective due to being restricted to one handed use, as it is quite small. A skilled combatant could overcome some of the drawbacks a foil naturally has but not completely. That being said, a person using a lightfoil would excel against single opponents but would still suffer the same issues that Makashi suffers from. That being, multiple combatants or those who excel at Juyo or Djem So would overwhelm a combatant armed with a Lightfoil.

 

Even masters of the form, such as Count Dooku, would be better served using Makashi with a lightsaber rather than the Lightfoil. Consider the drawbacks and advantages are so heavily weighed towards the more common lightsaber, it is not a far stretch to consider the Lightfoil completely inferior in nearly every category. It would be foolish to wield such a weapon outside of a tournament. Just as it would be foolish to wield a rapier against an opponent with a bastard sword.

 

As for the Crossguard Saber...at least, the weapon in Legends canon that was used by Roblio Darté, I have less to say about it. I will not speak about the movie version shown in the Episode 7 teaser, because it is even more useless in combat and an actual danger to the user itself.

 

I think it's simply too fancy. Saber combat in general does not have the same style of fighting that you would see from traditional swords, due to being so light. Having a small extension on the lightsaber, used as you claim to "catch" the opponents saber is an incredibly dangerous move. Putting yourself in that position in a fight leaves you very exposed, as you have given up the outer and middle rings of defense, and you are left to defend or attack from the inner ring of defense. Very unwise.

 

Amusingly, Makashi would probably be the most vulnerable to a crossguard saber. Followed by Shii-cho. Other forms are either too mobile, too aggressive to safely use against, or too defensively oriented for it to be viable.

Edited December 1, 2014 by Eythiofr

[LegendaryBlade]

Hello.

 

There are a few good reasons why the Lightfoil is not a very good weapon in SW lore.

 

First off, the Lightfoil is clearly designed for use by practitioners of the Makashi style. The foil could be used in other forms but it would not be as effective due to being restricted to one handed use, as it is quite small. A skilled combatant could overcome some of the drawbacks a foil naturally has but not completely. That being said, a person using a lightfoil would excel against single opponents but would still suffer the same issues that Makashi suffers from. That being, multiple combatants or those who excel at Juyo or Djem So would overwhelm a combatant armed with a Lightfoil.

 

Even masters of the form, such as Count Dooku, would be better served using Makashi with a lightsaber rather than the Lightfoil. Consider the drawbacks and advantages are so heavily weighed towards the more common lightsaber, it is not a far stretch to consider the Lightfoil completely inferior in nearly every category. It would be foolish to wield such a weapon outside of a tournament. Just as it would be foolish to wield a rapier against an opponent with a bastard sword.

 

As for the Crossguard Saber...at least, the weapon in Legends canon that was used by Roblio Darté, I have less to say about it. I will not speak about the movie version shown in the Episode 7 teaser, because it is even more useless in combat and an actual danger to the user itself.

 

I think it's simply too fancy. Saber combat in general does not have the same style of fighting that you would see from traditional swords, due to being so light. Having a small extension on the lightsaber, used as you claim to "catch" the opponents saber is an incredibly dangerous move. Putting yourself in that position in a fight leaves you very exposed, as you have given up the outer and middle rings of defense, and you are left to defend or attack from the inner ring of defense. Very unwise.

 

Amusingly, Makashi would probably be the most vulnerable to a crossguard saber. Followed by Shii-cho. Other forms are either too mobile, too aggressive to safely use against, or too defensively oriented for it to be viable.

 

While we're on the subject of Dooku, I know he's supposed to be using Makashi and that it's supposed to be based off of fencing but his choreography in the films was awful. Most of his cuts were wide, or carried him significantly off point and he chose to bat at the opponent's weapon instead of a guiding parry.

 

I don't know much about the in lore style, I only know what I know from classical fencing and some competition swordplay. It is true that duelling swords are single combat weapons, but they're also far from useless. In single combat, against even a bastard sword a duelling sword is significant. Weight does not effect parry, momentum does. Especially in saber combat where, as you yourself admitted, weight is not an easy. A large saber would parry as easily as a lighter one. The jedi order as a whole would benefit from smaller, more precise movements albeit it'd be less exciting to watch I suppose.

 

When you use a catch guard you don't leave yourself open if you've kept your point on guard. If they have an offhand weapon, perhaps, but then there's no reason to not have an offhand weapon yourself. Many spanish rapier styles kept a parrying dagger at the side for entanglement, or thrusts that made it past your primary. An angled guard, like in the crossguard saber in the wiki, is in no way a self danger.

 

The crossguard in the trailer is dumb for a myriad of reasons, but i'm sure you don't want me to go on and on about how the trailer design is impractical at best. I hope it wasn't a final design. The concept they wanted is good and practical, you can see the idea in there, but the execution is awful.

 

Most martial swordstyles are vulnerable to crossguards, since the hand is considered a primary target by most experiences swordsman. After all, it's always the most extended target if your posture is good (If you're back isn't straight, your head is actually your most vulnerable target. Which is why you say swordsmen with bad posture are "giving you their face")

Edited December 1, 2014 by LegendaryBlade

[Rhyltran]

While we're on the subject of Dooku, I know he's supposed to be using Makashi and that it's supposed to be based off of fencing but his choreography in the films was awful. Most of his cuts were wide, or carried him significantly off point and he chose to bat at the opponent's weapon instead of a guiding parry.

 

I don't know much about the in lore style, I only know what I know from classical fencing and some competition swordplay. It is true that duelling swords are single combat weapons, but they're also far from useless. In single combat, against even a bastard sword a duelling sword is significant. Weight does not effect parry, momentum does. Especially in saber combat where, as you yourself admitted, weight is not an easy. A large saber would parry as easily as a lighter one. The jedi order as a whole would benefit from smaller, more precise movements albeit it'd be less exciting to watch I suppose.

 

When you use a catch guard you don't leave yourself open if you've kept your point on guard. If they have an offhand weapon, perhaps, but then there's no reason to not have an offhand weapon yourself. Many spanish rapier styles kept a parrying dagger at the side for entanglement, or thrusts that made it past your primary. An angled guard, like in the crossguard saber in the wiki, is in no way a self danger.

 

The crossguard in the trailer is dumb for a myriad of reasons, but i'm sure you don't want me to go on and on about how the trailer design is impractical at best. I hope it wasn't a final design. The concept they wanted is good and practical, you can see the idea in there, but the execution is awful.

 

Most martial swordstyles are vulnerable to crossguards, since the hand is considered a primary target by most experiences swordsman. After all, it's always the most extended target if your posture is good (If you're back isn't straight, your head is actually your most vulnerable target. Which is why you say swordsmen with bad posture are "giving you their face")

 

The truth is it is designed to look good but lightsabers also aren't the same as real swords so even a "fencing" based technique would look differently. A real sword needs to be at a proper angle to cut. A lightsaber doesn't. You can wave it around like a flashlight and kill a room full of people. A sword needs a well placed and correct thrust to penetrate someone. A lightsaber you can push forward like a drunken baboon and kill someone.

[LegendaryBlade]

The truth is it is designed to look good but lightsabers also aren't the same as real swords so even a "fencing" based technique would look differently. A real sword needs to be at a proper angle to cut. A lightsaber doesn't. You can wave it around like a flashlight and kill a room full of people. A sword needs a well placed and correct thrust to penetrate someone. A lightsaber you can push forward like a drunken baboon and kill someone.

 

You're not wrong, but at the same time precision still trumps wide frantic movements. The wider the cut the more you bring your weapon off point, making you less able to parry or defend and less able to strike your opponent's core. The smaller your moments, the faster you actually are. Control your weapon with your wrist and forearm, instead of your shoulder, and the blade can cover so much more so much faster.

 

Half circle fencing is a great example of this. You can touch the tip of the weapon to your opponent's shoulder, form a full half circle up and over their head, and tap their opposite shoulder in the same time it'd take to execute a wide cut. Imagine how deadly Jedi would be with such efficient movement.

[HaltHammerzeit]

While we're on different lightsabre types, I'd like to see a Lightwhip

[kriegheld]

I hope not. I don't even like purple crystals. The only reason they exist is because Samual L. Jackson got to pick his saber and wanted to "keep it real".

[LegendaryBlade]

I hope not. I don't even like purple crystals. The only reason they exist is because Samual L. Jackson got to pick his saber and wanted to "keep it real".

 

Wh-...what does this even have to do with Lightfoils?

[Quickpaw]

I'm hoping at some point they include shoto, the shorter lightsabers that were in the previous games.