Gore/PS CAN'T be 3 seconds, I'll explain why

[NogueiraA]

Gore/PS window now has 3secs, ok.

 

The problem:

1 - Ability activation delay.

2 - Ravage/MS has 3secs cast, 3% alacrity from Ataru Form will make the cast ~2.9sec?

 

So, supposing Ravage/MS will be a 2.9sec cast, we have 0.1 sec to press Ravage/MS after pressing Gore/PS and PRAY for it to activate instantly, so the lag won't delay the ability activation by 0.2~0.3secs for example.

 

Conclusion: Ravage/MS last hit won't hit the Gore/PS window.

 

We can't be stuck into only using Ravage/MS while berserk is active.

 

This is my thoughts.

[TACeMossie]

Gore/PS window now has 3secs, ok.

 

The problem:

1 - Ability activation delay.

2 - Ravage/MS has 3secs cast, 3% alacrity from Ataru Form will make the cast ~2.9sec?

 

So, supposing Ravage/MS will be a 2.9sec cast, we have 0.1 sec to press Ravage/MS after pressing Gore/PS and PRAY for it to activate instantly, so the lag won't delay the ability activation by 0.2~0.3secs for example.

 

Conclusion: Ravage/MS last hit won't hit the Gore/PS window.

 

We can't be stuck into only using Ravage/MS while berserk is active.

 

This is my thoughts.

 

Or maybe, you're only supposed to Ravage/Master Strike while Berserked/zenned when doing Precision Slash. So its Ravage -> Devastating Blast or Vicious Throw -> Devastating Blast

 

Jeez, next you'll be complaining Plasmatech Vanguards can't use Pulse Cannon unless they have 3 stacks of Pulse Generator.

Edited November 22, 2014 by TACeMossie

[Hei_Atzfel]

I'm not a fan of the Gore change myself. However on the other hand, Fury looks like it's going to be massively OP, or at least much much more powerful burst wise than most of the other stuff the streams have shown.

[NogueiraA]

Or maybe, you're only supposed to Ravage/Master Strike while Berserked/zenned when doing Precision Slash. So its Ravage -> Devastating Blast or Vicious Throw -> Devastating Blast

 

Jeez, next you'll be complaining Plasmatech Vanguards can't use Pulse Cannon unless they have 3 stacks of Pulse Generator.

 

Mmmm I don't think so, Ravage/MS ONLY while berserk is active I don't think it's intended.

I'm guessing the devs just didn't think about lag when they changed it.

[Kaizersan]

Mmmm I don't think so, Ravage/MS ONLY while berserk is active I don't think it's intended.

I'm guessing the devs just didn't think about lag when they changed it.

 

No it's worked fine on the pts plus you build centering a bit faster now with some of the changes.

[NogueiraA]

No it's worked fine on the pts plus you build centering a bit faster now with some of the changes.

 

I suppose you were invited to the PTS and tested it yourself, right?

If so, you can afirm that Ravage/MS will be used every time while Zen/Berserk is active?

Edited November 22, 2014 by NogueiraA

[Kaizersan]

I'm not a fan of the Gore change myself. However on the other hand, Fury looks like it's going to be massively OP, or at least much much more powerful burst wise than most of the other stuff the streams have shown.

 

It only looks that way on paper but in practice they are roughly the same in the hands of a skilled player.

[TACeMossie]

I suppose you were invited to the PTS and tested it yourself, right?

If so, you can afirm that Ravage/MS will be used every time while Zen/Berserk is active?

 

Was gonna post maths, but then I didn't see the live stream so I dont know if you guys know about differences to Ravage. Anyway, I can confirm that every Ravage should be Berserked and under a gore window. I'll go watch the live stream now to see if it was revealed so I can post my maths.

 

EDIT - Ok good they moused over things at the start and showed Ravage now has an 18 second cooldown.

So without further ado, I will prove my things.

 

With MATHS!

 

Cooldown on Gore = 11.65 seconds

Cooldown on Gore (Berserk) = 9.02 seconds

 

Assuming every second gore is under Beserk, a 2 Gore Cycle = 20.67 seconds

 

Next up we look at Cooldowns used, Rage required, and fury built up.

 

2 Gore cycle = 20.67 seconds = 21 seconds (because reasons!)

 

This uses 16 GCDs. 7 Under beserk (Ravage, Devestating Blast, and others), with 9 outside Berserk.

 

Outside Berserk, we actually get 10 abilities because of Gore, so we need 6 of these to be rage users (to build up fury)

 

Confirmed Rage Users: Vicious Throw, Devestating Blast, Gore, Massacre x1

 

Thats 3 of the 9 cooldowns we need to use, and it consumes 4 rage to do it. It generates 20 fury as well.

 

So we need 3 more rage users, and the rest of them can be filler.

 

Filler options:

 

Massacre (uses 2 rage)

Dual Saber Throw x1 (2 rage built)

Battering Assault x1 (6 rage built)

Assault (2 rage built)

 

since our only rage user that makes sense is Massacre, that means that we need to build 10 rage (BA + DST + AS) to account for all the rage outside of the berserk window.

 

Now we go into the Berserk window. We get:

 

Massacre (-1 rage)

Gore (-1 rage)

Devestating Blast (-2 rage)

Ravage (0 rage)

Strike (+2 rage)

Strike (+2 rage)

Strike/Massacre (+2 rage/-1 rage)

 

As you can see, Berserk every second gore, Ravage every second gore.

Edited November 22, 2014 by TACeMossie

[venomlash]

"differences to Ravage"

I speculate that (now they've gotten rid of pushback on channels) the three ticks of Ravage are spaced more sensibly so that the third tick doesn't hit at 2.7 seconds. I'm interested.

 

What really bugs me is that the Dev blog on Wednesday (?) said that it was going back on the GCD, that it would do good damage, and that it would give a 6s buff, and then on today's livestream they said that it was staying off the GCD, that it no longer did damage, and that it would give a 3s buff. Seriously, get your stuff straight internally before you present it to the community; the whole reason for banning datamining is to avoid half-finished stuff being circulated on the forums.

[TACeMossie]

"differences to Ravage"

I speculate that (now they've gotten rid of pushback on channels) the three ticks of Ravage are spaced more sensibly so that the third tick doesn't hit at 2.7 seconds. I'm interested.

 

What really bugs me is that the Dev blog on Wednesday (?) said that it was going back on the GCD, that it would do good damage, and that it would give a 6s buff, and then on today's livestream they said that it was staying off the GCD, that it no longer did damage, and that it would give a 3s buff. Seriously, get your stuff straight internally before you present it to the community; the whole reason for banning datamining is to avoid half-finished stuff being circulated on the forums.

 

Differences to Ravage = Reduced damage, 18 second cooldown (from 30)

 

It still hits like a truck, just a slightly smaller truck

Edited November 22, 2014 by TACeMossie

[Kaizersan]

I suppose you were invited to the PTS and tested it yourself, right?

If so, you can afirm that Ravage/MS will be used every time while Zen/Berserk is active?

 

With the right build and rotation you will be able to use gore just like it is now with ravage the 1st rotation with berserk up and it will be back up before ravage resets.

[Dacer]

The point of being against a 3 second gore - outside of lag and all the other reasons only having it up for 3s sucks - is that our burst is seriously hurt by that from what I can tell.

 

3s is a ravage OR a scream/throw - no more getting a scream/throw in at the end. That right there is seriously a big deal. And ravage might be on a lower CD so PvE will be find but in PVP - lowering the cool down time doesn't allow me to burst down a more moble healer it or an assassin running in circles stunning everyone.

 

 

Reduced ravage damage, shorter gore window = less burst. Burst is the reason to play carnage. If the fury spec does it better then why play carnage anymore? I personally love how carnage combat flows - the other specs feel disjointed in their rotations.

 

But if the other are better. I'll play what gives me the competitive advantage.

[TACeMossie]

The point of being against a 3 second gore - outside of lag and all the other reasons only having it up for 3s sucks - is that our burst is seriously hurt by that from what I can tell.

 

3s is a ravage OR a scream/throw - no more getting a scream/throw in at the end. That right there is seriously a big deal. And ravage might be on a lower CD so PvE will be find but in PVP - lowering the cool down time doesn't allow me to burst down a more moble healer it or an assassin running in circles stunning everyone.

 

 

Reduced ravage damage, shorter gore window = less burst. Burst is the reason to play carnage. If the fury spec does it better then why play carnage anymore? I personally love how carnage combat flows - the other specs feel disjointed in their rotations.

 

But if the other are better. I'll play what gives me the competitive advantage.

 

To be fair, a while back the devs said:

 

Watchman/Annihilation: Sustained

Focus/Rage: Burst

Combat/Carnage: Hybrid

 

Of course at the time that was a huge joke. But it shows they intended Focus/Rage to be the burstiest spec available.

 

And on the bright side, if you have the proc and get knocked back, you can go Gore -> Devestating Blast -> Vicious Throw from 10 meters!

[Bidli]

I guess it will be still good.. with faster cast of ravage/ms with berserk/zen poped + 3% of alacrity from ataru form and some alacrity from gear yu will probably have 2 - 1.8 sec channel time and than still fit in blade storm and dispatch.. ?

 

 

yestarday i raged hard on dulfy, but today i dont se it a big problem unless i'll try it live.. maybe it will be even more bursting than nowadays.. ))

[Karkais]

To be fair, a while back the devs said:

 

Watchman/Annihilation: Sustained

Focus/Rage: Burst

Combat/Carnage: Hybrid

 

Of course at the time that was a huge joke. But it shows they intended Focus/Rage to be the burstiest spec available.

 

And on the bright side, if you have the proc and get knocked back, you can go Gore -> Devestating Blast -> Vicious Throw from 10 meters!

 

The rage spec will be called "Fury", apparently.

 

And from what I could gather from the dev stream, they rationalized the changes by alacrity changes giving marauders substantial damage buff overall, so much that they needed to nerf individual moves damages to bring it down in line. And they specifically nerfed gore to achieve this. However, I am not a fan of this change. Even if my attacks would do more damage over time, that damage buff is useless unless I can actually kill my pvp opponents with it. Burst damage is important in pvp because of this. More damage over time might just as well mean it easier for healers to soak up that damage. I remain very sceptical. And I definitely don't like gore changes.

 

ps. New gore will be like acid blade apparently in that it is no longer an attack but rather a selfbuff? So it doesn't actually need to hit the opponent...

Edited November 22, 2014 by Karkais

[TACeMossie]

ps. New gore will be like acid blade apparently in that it is no longer an attack but rather a selfbuff? So it doesn't actually need to hit the opponent...

 

As I said, you dont have to be melee range anymore! Say you use massacre and then they use a knockback. The second you enter 10 meters, you go Gore -> Vicious Throw -> Devestating Blast. Don't have to be melee range.

 

Of course, unlike Acid Blade, the buff is 3 seconds instead of Infinite, so you dont want to activate it unless you're about to do damage.

 

Anyway, in PvP its technically a nerf only because the cooldown is 12 seconds instead of 10.5, as most of the time you were CCd before the 2nd attack anyway (let alone the 3rd), but its also a buff cause you don't have to be in melee range to use it.

 

Up to you what it is. I say its a "Mechanical tweaking"

Edited November 22, 2014 by TACeMossie

[Karkais]

As I said, you dont have to be melee range anymore! Say you use massacre and then they use a knockback. The second you enter 10 meters, you go Gore -> Vicious Throw -> Devestating Blast. Don't have to be melee range.

 

ASSUMING you have slaughter and preferably also execute procs lined up. Slaughter triggers off ataru strikes, which you kinda need to be in melee range in order to get. And even then its just a chance.

Edited November 22, 2014 by Karkais

[Master-Nala]

I'm not a fan of the Gore change myself. However on the other hand, Fury looks like it's going to be massively OP, or at least much much more powerful burst wise than most of the other stuff the streams have shown.

 

http://s3-ec.buzzfed.com/static/enhanced/webdr01/2013/7/28/14/anigif_enhanced-buzz-21371-1375035416-15.gif

 

Inigo Montoya would like to have a word with you.

Edited November 22, 2014 by Master-Nala

[KnightTyler]

The rage spec will be called "Fury", apparently.

 

And from what I could gather from the dev stream, they rationalized the changes by alacrity changes giving marauders substantial damage buff overall, so much that they needed to nerf individual moves damages to bring it down in line. And they specifically nerfed gore to achieve this. However, I am not a fan of this change. Even if my attacks would do more damage over time, that damage buff is useless unless I can actually kill my pvp opponents with it. Burst damage is important in pvp because of this. More damage over time might just as well mean it easier for healers to soak up that damage. I remain very sceptical. And I definitely don't like gore changes.

 

ps. New gore will be like acid blade apparently in that it is no longer an attack but rather a selfbuff? So it doesn't actually need to hit the opponent...

 

You have to consider that they intend for Concentration/Fury to be THE best Burst spec for Sentinels/Marauders and you will see why this change was made. The change to Precision/Gore makes Combat/Carnage no longer the best Burst spec, but fulfills Bioware's goal of making it a versatile hybrid between sustained and burst damage. Best at none, good at all. Its the jack of all trades for Sentinel/Marauders who prefer that playstyle. You still have burst, you just don't have THE best burst.

 

As far as how effective it will actually be, especially in PvP, only time will tell. The biggest problem with Combat/Carnage before was getting stunned during your Precision Slash/Gore windows and effectively killing all your burst. This was an intended counter for Combat/Carnage's burst, but it hurt them dramatically. Mainly because of an even bigger problem which is Sentinel/Marauder survivability, which basically forces you to mow down your enemy quickly to survive, or die. If you missed a window and weren't able to kill your opponent you just had to get acquainted with the respawn zone.

 

With a healer, they can survive fairly well unless they are being focused (which is how it should be). Without a healer, they have the worst cooldown for their style of play. Don't get me wrong, 99% damage reduction is a wonderful effect on paper, but 50% current health loss does not fit with a melee class who is in the thick of battle constantly. Guarded by the Force/Undying Rage are both in a very bad state right now and if they were changed around, Sentinel's would fare much better in group PvP.

 

If you gave a Shadow Guarded by the Force, it would be a great cooldown for them. You know why? because they have a vanish. They can exit combat entirely. This is the style of play that fits a "health loss" cooldown, not a class that is stuck in the thick of battle constantly like a Sentinel. The problem with this, is you cant give them a cooldown like this without making the Tank spec (Kinetic Combat) have a passive that takes away the health loss. Imagine a Shadow tank or any tank for that matter, popping guarded by the force during PvE content and losing 50% of their current health lol. Sentinels have Force Camouflage, but it does not remove them from combat and for this very reason, this is why Guarded by the Force's health loss effect does not work with their style of play. Sentinel's are up in the enemies face constantly so they need a cooldown that fits their playstyle. The difference may seem minimal to most, but being able to choose when you re-enter combat (Force Cloak), and being forced back into combat after 4 seconds (Force Camouflage) is a big difference when you talk about the concerns of a "health loss" style cooldown.

 

Edit: Just to clarify, this is NOT me saying that Shadow Tanks need a 99% damage reduction cooldown without a health loss lol or that Shadows should get GBTF. I was just trying to explain why Guarded by the Force's health loss effect does not work well with Sentinel's style of play but would work much better with the playstyle of a DPS stealth class that has a vanish.

Edited November 23, 2014 by KnightTyler

[Karkais]

Without a healer, they have the worst cooldown for their style of play. Don't get me wrong, 99% damage reduction is a wonderful effect on paper, but 50% current health loss does not fit with a melee class who is in the thick of battle constantly. Guarded by the Force/Undying Rage are both in a very bad state right now and if they were changed around, Sentinel's would fare much better in group PvP.

 

If you gave a Shadow Guarded by the Force, it would be a great cooldown for them. You know why? because they have a vanish. They can exit combat entirely.

 

Undying rages' problems are more obvious by the fact that the -cooldown talent is in the already crowded heroic talent window. We would want to have all those abilities pretty much. Currently it looks like my marauder is simply down one immobilize with no way around it. Expunging camouflage is probably still more important than the crappy immob aspect of crippling slash. Marauder needs all movement-impairing effects cleanses it can get.

 

Im not sure how the fact that DoTs will no longer be cleansable affect the shadow, though? Technically marauder also gets force camouflage with which it can 'exit combat', however DoTs will break the stealth easily now. Ive never had an assassin so I dont know.

 

ps. This whole thing feels like buildign a puzzle with one third of the pieces missing >_<

Edited November 22, 2014 by Karkais

[KnightTyler]

Im not sure how the fact that DoTs will no longer be cleansable affect the shadow, though? Technically marauder also gets force camouflage with which it can 'exit combat', however DoTs will break the stealth easily now. Ive never had an assassin so I dont know.

 

Force Camo doesn't "exit" combat, it pretty much just "camouflages" you temporarily and makes you non-targetable (by direct attacks, you can still be hit by AoE's and DoT's) for 4 seconds before forcing you back out into the world again. The only thing that breaks Force Camo is the user actively dealing direct damage,or the cooldown expiring, so it doesn't matter if DoT's are on you or not.

 

Edit: Stealth Scan breaks Force Camo as well.

 

Force Cloak completely exits combat, but breaks you out if you take/deal damage and you have two ways to prevent that damage, Resilience, and the new Heroic utility that causes Force Cloak to grant 2 seconds of Resilience. The Resilience "effect" purge's DoT's so you don't even have to worry about them.

Edited November 23, 2014 by KnightTyler

[Karkais]

The Resilience "effect" purge's DoT's so you don't even have to worry about them.

 

Devs said that in 3.0 player DoT's cannot be cleansed. I assume that also means self-purge effects of abilities.

Edited November 22, 2014 by Karkais

[KnightTyler]

Devs said that in 3.0 player DoT's cannot be cleansed. I assume that also means self-purge effects of abilities.

 

From 2.5 patch notes:

 

•Cleanse is now defined as an effect which removes a limited number of a certain type (or types) of negative effects, usually Force or Tech, from the target.

 

•Purge is now defined as an effect which removes all negative dispellable effects of a certain type (or types) from the target (usually self).

 

•Many ability tooltips have been updated to properly indicate whether an ability cleanses or purges negative effects from a target.

 

 

This means Cleanse's remove everything that is not considered to be "uncleansable."

This means Purge's remove all negative effects.

 

They changed the terminology in 2.5 because of Madness DoT's becoming uncleansable and assumedly in preparation for 3.0 as well.

Edited November 22, 2014 by KnightTyler

[Unperson]

Devs said that in 3.0 player DoT's cannot be cleansed. I assume that also means self-purge effects of abilities.

 

http://www.twitch.tv/swtor/b/583547078

 

FF to around 11:30 when they start talking about DoTs. They specifically mention that Force Shroud gets rid of them (also Evasion).

 

Why they chose not to make Force Camo a true purge is beyond me.

[venomlash]

The only thing that breaks Force Camo is the user actively dealing direct damage,or the cooldown expiring, so it doesn't matter if DoT's are on you or not.

 

Troopers and Bounty Hunters would like to have a word with you...