Where is Impose Weakness in 3.0 Deception?

[Kayriel]

I've been going over the assassin changes that will come with 3.0 and for the most part i don't see anything major for Deception , the spec that i play both in pvp and pve , except some qol changes to force management , but the most problematic thing i found is that i did not see Impose Weakness anywhere , Low Slash and Spike are now triggering a Duplicity proc , off the normal CD and with that gone , we loose control in favour of some aoe stuff that i am more than sure we will leave to the proper specs anyway ?

 

Can someone please help me out here ? This is a bery bizarre change , we are basically going back to 1.7 when we would never know when we got duplicity. I am not sure of what the logic for this change is , or did i miss something ? Is it going to be rolled into another talent or something ?

Edited November 20, 2014 by Kayriel
typos

[Griad]

No one really used it that much anyway it was a useless point to spend for both PVE and PVP in my opinion so i am glad they gor rid of it

[Herem]

No one really used it that much anyway it was a useless point to spend for both PVE and PVP in my opinion so i am glad they gor rid of it

People really didn't spend the point for a second low-cost high-damage Maul every 10 seconds? That doesn't make sense to me.

 

As for the OP, perhaps the addition of Assassin's Mark (20% armor debuff) will make up for not having it?

Edited November 20, 2014 by Herem

[IInox]

No one really used it that much anyway it was a useless point to spend for both PVE and PVP in my opinion so i am glad they gor rid of it

 

are u *********** kidding us?

[Kaos_KidSWTOR]

Impose Weakness (the 9% damage while Spiked or Electrocuted) is a new Utility for all Sin's

[Herem]

Impose Weakness (the 9% damage while Spiked or Electrocuted) is a new Utility for all Sin's

Do you have a link for this? I don't see it anywhere on Dulfy's discipline calculator.

[Kaos_KidSWTOR]

Do you have a link for this? I don't see it anywhere on Dulfy's discipline calculator.

 

Oh wait, I'm thinking of Nerve Wracking... Erm, Impose Weakness is actually.. gone... unless Spike and Low Slash are inherently able to always proc Duplicity, well apparently the Proc Chance on Duplicity is gone, and the rate limit is 10s so... actually, there's no reason to have Impose Weakness, just always open with Spike and you should have a Duplicity proc (well, any direct damage skill anyway)

[Herem]

actually, there's no reason to have Impose Weakness, just always open with Spike and you should have a Duplicity proc (well, any direct damage skill anyway)

Yes, but then you won't see it proc for another 10 seconds. That's a long time to wait to use Maul again.

[Kaos_KidSWTOR]

Yes, but then you won't see it proc for another 10 seconds. That's a long time to wait to use Maul again.

 

Well, that's the normal rate anyway, without Impose Weakness i guess it's just a slight Burst damage nerf, which isnt bad.

[Vodrin]

Well, that's the normal rate anyway, without Impose Weakness i guess it's just a slight Burst damage nerf, which isnt bad.

 

Currently you can proc duplicity with a direct damage open, then follow with low slash to get two boosted mauls in 3 GCD'd or so. This will no longer be possible. I am guessing that the dev's are assuming the damage will be made up by the new project replacement, the 5% force damage debuff, and the armor debuff. They were probably also worried that duplicity now having a 100% chance to proc would make having two guaranteed buffed mauls would be two much.

 

Personally I would rather have the chance for an extra maul though.

 

Edit: I also just noticed that Maul is getting an additional 30% crit damage boost through talents, so that may help a little.

Edited November 20, 2014 by Vodrin

[Herem]

Edit: I also just noticed that Maul is getting an additional 30% crit damage boost through talents, so that may help a little.

This bonus already exists in game. It's just been moved from Induction to Electric Ambush for 3.0.

Edited November 20, 2014 by Herem

[Griad]

Hmmm i was thinking of another skill sry was thinking of nerve wracking

[Kayriel]

Currently you can proc duplicity with a direct damage open, then follow with low slash to get two boosted mauls in 3 GCD'd or so. This will no longer be possible. I am guessing that the dev's are assuming the damage will be made up by the new project replacement, the 5% force damage debuff, and the armor debuff. They were probably also worried that duplicity now having a 100% chance to proc would make having two guaranteed buffed mauls would be two much.

 

Personally I would rather have the chance for an extra maul though.

 

Edit: I also just noticed that Maul is getting an additional 30% crit damage boost through talents, so that may help a little.

 

As far as i could see on dulfy's discipline calculator , the damage to maul remains the same as it is now on live , the boosts to critical strike damage bonus , is now into Induction and in 3.0 will be moved into something else , if im not mistaking , so basically , were back to 1.7 , spike will be removed from the bar of any assassin , since the 2 second stun is.... well pointless now in both pvp and pve , low slash is going to be just a thing for pvp now ( isn't used in pve now anyways ) so.... yeah... now that i see this , i am super confused about the changes to the Deception tree.

 

We are going to build static charges of the stance once every 6 seconds , which brings the virtual CD of discharge , to 12 seconds now , instead of 9 , we are getting armor debuff and force debuff but at the same time , we are loosing 4% of off our Exploitive strikes , which is going to become a passive and this change i would understand , if it was a 5% boost to both force and melee, but its for melee only , so i honestly am not sure where they are aiming with Deception.

 

I am super confused and this reminds me a lot of the huge changes to the spec when 2.0 hit. In 1.7 no one was complaining that deception was OP or stuff like that , now , that a lot of classes got bugged , deception is in a good spot for pvp , and is strugling in pve a bit but its still a decent spec and now , 3.0 hits and we get back to where we were were and ROTHC hit , with wierd changes and the spec being looked at , near the end of the damn expansion. I really hope this doesn't happen this time and i am hoping that the changes they streamed are not really set in stone and they will at least decide to bring back Impose Weakness , maybe roll it into another talent or something.

[Vodrin]

As far as i could see on dulfy's discipline calculator , the damage to maul remains the same as it is now on live , the boosts to critical strike damage bonus , is now into Induction and in 3.0 will be moved into something else , if im not mistaking , so basically , were back to 1.7 , spike will be removed from the bar of any assassin , since the 2 second stun is.... well pointless now in both pvp and pve , low slash is going to be just a thing for pvp now ( isn't used in pve now anyways ) so.... yeah... now that i see this , i am super confused about the changes to the Deception tree.

 

We are going to build static charges of the stance once every 6 seconds , which brings the virtual CD of discharge , to 12 seconds now , instead of 9 , we are getting armor debuff and force debuff but at the same time , we are loosing 4% of off our Exploitive strikes , which is going to become a passive and this change i would understand , if it was a 5% boost to both force and melee, but its for melee only , so i honestly am not sure where they are aiming with Deception.

 

I am super confused and this reminds me a lot of the huge changes to the spec when 2.0 hit. In 1.7 no one was complaining that deception was OP or stuff like that , now , that a lot of classes got bugged , deception is in a good spot for pvp , and is strugling in pve a bit but its still a decent spec and now , 3.0 hits and we get back to where we were were and ROTHC hit , with wierd changes and the spec being looked at , near the end of the damn expansion. I really hope this doesn't happen this time and i am hoping that the changes they streamed are not really set in stone and they will at least decide to bring back Impose Weakness , maybe roll it into another talent or something.

 

This is all quite correct and it is a bit concerning. A lot of what makes the spec work currently is the ability to put out really heavy burst with some lucky RNG. It looks like 3.0 is going to remove the RNG aspect, but at the cost of greatly reducing the ability to burst. There are some variables that will require trial to assess the full affect of the changes, but I am a bit worried looking at them. And this is despite the fact that deception will get access to some better utility type abilities.

[Herem]

As far as i could see on dulfy's discipline calculator , the damage to maul remains the same as it is now on live

Actually, it looks like Maul damage is going down in 3.0, at least when you use it while Duplicity is active. According to the calculator, Duplicity only increases Maul damage by 20% when it procs, while in game right now, 3 points in Duplicity will increase the damage by 30%.

 

We are going to build static charges of the stance once every 6 seconds

They've also increased the chance of building a Static Charge to 50%, which may explain the lengthening of the cooldown. However, the critical strike bonus given to Discharge and Ball Lightning is only 30% via Crackling Blasts, instead of 50% like it is now.

 

Just going to have to wait and see how it all works out.

[Aelanis]

As far as i could see on dulfy's discipline calculator , the damage to maul remains the same as it is now on live , the boosts to critical strike damage bonus , is now into Induction and in 3.0 will be moved into something else , if im not mistaking , so basically , were back to 1.7 , spike will be removed from the bar of any assassin , since the 2 second stun is.... well pointless now in both pvp and pve , low slash is going to be just a thing for pvp now ( isn't used in pve now anyways ) so.... yeah... now that i see this , i am super confused about the changes to the Deception tree.

 

We are going to build static charges of the stance once every 6 seconds , which brings the virtual CD of discharge , to 12 seconds now , instead of 9 , we are getting armor debuff and force debuff but at the same time , we are loosing 4% of off our Exploitive strikes , which is going to become a passive and this change i would understand , if it was a 5% boost to both force and melee, but its for melee only , so I honestly am not sure where they are aiming with Deception.

 

I am super confused and this reminds me a lot of the huge changes to the spec when 2.0 hit. In 1.7 no one was complaining that deception was OP or stuff like that , now , that a lot of classes got bugged , deception is in a good spot for pvp , and is strugling in pve a bit but its still a decent spec and now , 3.0 hits and we get back to where we were were and ROTHC hit , with wierd changes and the spec being looked at , near the end of the damn expansion. I really hope this doesn't happen this time and i am hoping that the changes they streamed are not really set in stone and they will at least decide to bring back Impose Weakness , maybe roll it into another talent or something.

 

The changes from 1.7 to 2.0 were far more drastic than what's happening from 2.10 to 3.0 in Deception. Discharge went from getting up to a 30% damage boost to dealing damage based on multiples of Static Charge stacks, Static Charge max stacks dropped by 2, and Shock no longer got a 30% damage boost from 2 Voltaic Slashes. Now, Ball Lightning is replacing Shock, and we lose Impose Weakness (which was useless in PvE anyway). All other mechanics are staying the same, the rotation doesn't change, you just can't chain Duplicity Maul with a 4 second mez between.

 

As for Discharge effective cooldown, don't forget that we build charges on a 6 second rate limit (Ball Lightning) and another, separate rate limit naturally, roughly every 6 to 7.5 seconds. That's 4 charges every 12-15 seconds, with no charges ever wasted (woohoo!!) either by building 2 stacks when already at 2 stacks from Shock and Chain Shock or from Discharge triggering Surging Charge. Effectively (before Recklessness) we get a Discharge every roughly 9 to 12 seconds. It's probably closer to 12, but then comes back down to 10.5 or so with a Recklessness every ~60 seconds. And if you think it'll take longer than 7.5 seconds to naturally build a chage (2 globals once the ICD ends), you're probably not realizing each separate Saber Strike has a cumulative 87.5% chance to trigger it.

 

Oh, and for some added consistency, Duplicity procs at a 100% rate in 3.0. Never wait for a missing Duplicity ever again.

 

TL;DR

We're not changing almost at all. Things are only getting more consistent.

[Kayriel]

The changes from 1.7 to 2.0 were far more drastic than what's happening from 2.10 to 3.0 in Deception. Discharge went from getting up to a 30% damage boost to dealing damage based on multiples of Static Charge stacks, Static Charge max stacks dropped by 2, and Shock no longer got a 30% damage boost from 2 Voltaic Slashes. Now, Ball Lightning is replacing Shock, and we lose Impose Weakness (which was useless in PvE anyway). All other mechanics are staying the same, the rotation doesn't change, you just can't chain Duplicity Maul with a 4 second mez between.

 

As for Discharge effective cooldown, don't forget that we build charges on a 6 second rate limit (Ball Lightning) and another, separate rate limit naturally, roughly every 6 to 7.5 seconds. That's 4 charges every 12-15 seconds, with no charges ever wasted (woohoo!!) either by building 2 stacks when already at 2 stacks from Shock and Chain Shock or from Discharge triggering Surging Charge. Effectively (before Recklessness) we get a Discharge every roughly 9 to 12 seconds. It's probably closer to 12, but then comes back down to 10.5 or so with a Recklessness every ~60 seconds. And if you think it'll take longer than 7.5 seconds to naturally build a chage (2 globals once the ICD ends), you're probably not realizing each separate Saber Strike has a cumulative 87.5% chance to trigger it.

 

Oh, and for some added consistency, Duplicity procs at a 100% rate in 3.0. Never wait for a missing Duplicity ever again.

 

TL;DR

We're not changing almost at all. Things are only getting more consistent.

 

I am a bit confused , i was not able to see the change that now a proper discharge needs only 2 charges , please let me know where did you get this information ( or am i misunderstanding what you meant ? ) . If this is true , then you are absolutely correct the discharges will be on a virtual CD of around 7.5 seconds , like you mentioned , but if 3 charges are needed , then the CD goes up to 12 seconds no matter what you do ( 2 from procs off melee attacks , so 1 charge every 6 seconds of whacking the enemy with the glow bat and 1 from Shock/Ball of Lightning , so we can get 3 stacks ).

 

I would really like to read about the static charge change , since in their blog for sin changes , this was not mentioned anywhere , nor was it in the stream as far as i remember.

 

For the duplicity procs , if this is true , then YEY !! more consistency for us , but the fact that we loose control in one aspect of the game ( pvp ) , is not something i look forward to. I do both warzones and progression pve and if my class and specifically my favorite AC that i play since vanilla early access , is lacking in one aspect , it frustrates me a lot

[Aelanis]

I am a bit confused , i was not able to see the change that now a proper discharge needs only 2 charges , please let me know where did you get this information ( or am i misunderstanding what you meant ? ) . If this is true , then you are absolutely correct the discharges will be on a virtual CD of around 7.5 seconds , like you mentioned , but if 3 charges are needed , then the CD goes up to 12 seconds no matter what you do ( 2 from procs off melee attacks , so 1 charge every 6 seconds of whacking the enemy with the glow bat and 1 from Shock/Ball of Lightning , so we can get 3 stacks ).

 

I would really like to read about the static charge change , since in their blog for sin changes , this was not mentioned anywhere , nor was it in the stream as far as i remember.

 

For the duplicity procs , if this is true , then YEY !! more consistency for us , but the fact that we loose control in one aspect of the game ( pvp ) , is not something i look forward to. I do both warzones and progression pve and if my class and specifically my favorite AC that i play since vanilla early access , is lacking in one aspect , it frustrates me a lot

 

You build a charge from melee attacks about once every 6-7.5 seconds. If it's 6 seconds, then you'll build 10 charges over the course of a minute. You'll also build a charge every 6 seconds from Ball Lightning. That's another 10 every minute. If we take that until we have a multiple of 3 charges (3 minutes), we end up with 60 charges, or 20 discharges in 3 minutes. 180 seconds/20 discharges = 9 seconds. If we take the 7.5 second value, we end up with a 10 second average (180 seconds/18 discharges). In reality, it comes out to a little bit longer than that, because not every attack is a melee attack, but the effect of Recklessness building 3 stacks of Static Charge and getting the 60 second CD reduction from Force Cloak helps bring the average back down.

 

I'm just pulling info from Dulfy.net from the discipline calculator.

[Kayriel]

You build a charge from melee attacks about once every 6-7.5 seconds. If it's 6 seconds, then you'll build 10 charges over the course of a minute. You'll also build a charge every 6 seconds from Ball Lightning. That's another 10 every minute. If we take that until we have a multiple of 3 charges (3 minutes), we end up with 60 charges, or 20 discharges in 3 minutes. 180 seconds/20 discharges = 9 seconds. If we take the 7.5 second value, we end up with a 10 second average (180 seconds/18 discharges). In reality, it comes out to a little bit longer than that, because not every attack is a melee attack, but the effect of Recklessness building 3 stacks of Static Charge and getting the 60 second CD reduction from Force Cloak helps bring the average back down.

 

I'm just pulling info from Dulfy.net from the discipline calculator.

 

Thank you for the clarification , and for pve that is fine i guess , alhough as far as i can see , this still is a bit a dps loss and we are not the shiniest of stars in that department as far as am aware , even now. So... this is a bit concerning either way you look at the this issue.

 

The problem i see with this change is that we are getting a bit of a nerf on the pve side of things , and a bit of a larger nerf on the pvp side of things, because in pvp , the fights don't last for very long and if you build a static charge once every 6-7.5 seconds , along with another 1 from Shock , that still means that it will take us 12 - 13.5 seconds to get to the same result as we have now ( in about 9-10,5 ) so it all boils down on how you look at it. In the long run , as you said , it more or less evens out ( still nerfed a bit ) , but in short fights , we have a bit of a gutted build up ( after our initial use of the 3 stacks from recklessness , not to mention , again i am nagging about this , but we are loosing control since we don't have Impose weakness , we might as well remove Spike from our action bars completely ( except for Darkness people ) and low slash will return to its state pre 2.0 , just a simple 4 second mezz.

 

Like i previously mentioned , i play both pvp and pve and no matter how i look at this , were getting a nerf in multiple areas ; we are trading fast passed burst and control for a tiny bit of consistency coupled with aoe ( ill have to see 3.0 patch notes, but even with the lower cost and increased dmg , considering the fact that almost all other ACs have a far superior skill that does this... i am not sure i will put this skill back on my action bars for anything other than preventing a cap in a wz) and some "utilities" .

Edited November 21, 2014 by Kayriel
typos

[Okod]

While we're talking about missing/changed abilities, anyone else notice the change to Masked Assault/Darkswell; it longer has "Force Cloak no longer reduces healing done and received".

 

Is the Dulfy tool-tip wrong? Has this been rolled into a passive, or just simply 'gone'? If the latter then boo, no more heals during our 'Oh S**t' moment, and back to having to wait before grabbing the PvP health boosts after escaping.

[Ashuranrx]

Opening burst from stealth is nerfed for both sins and ops. When you see the DPS Ops changes, you will see that their stealth opening burst is nerfed a lot too. We got other things to compensate though, like root break force speed, which was inaccessible to DPS spec before.

[Sarafain]

TL;DR

We're not changing almost at all. Things are only getting more consistent.

 

I disagree.

 

Maul, with the lack of assassins/shadows mark and the decrease in duplicity/Infiltrations tactics bonus by 10% means we're we're going to see Mauls/SS damage drop by 14%; the trade off being a lower ICD and a guaranteed proc. This is a great increase to sustained but a pretty big nerf for PvP.

 

Shock/Project and Discharge/FB loose 20% surge damage for a 5% damage increase. This probably would even itself out over the course of a fight as the abilities have no bonus crit except Recklessness takes a pretty significant hit. There is a reduced CD on Recklessness allowing it to be used more but again it's a nerf to burst.

 

There is also the decrease of 4% crit in exploitive strikes/force synergy that is minor but for whatever reason irks me.

 

Surging charge once again gives a 10% armor penetration, and Shock/lightning Balls has a 5% increase to do the double hit. From what I've read there seems to be "better" resource management.

 

I disagree because it seems the classes burst potential was hit hard. The sustained damage will probably see the increase it will needs but it cost a lot of the burst to get it. Those that PvP using this spec will almost have to learn how to replay it as player health is increasing and burst is being toned down.

[Herem]

While we're talking about missing/changed abilities, anyone else notice the change to Masked Assault/Darkswell; it longer has "Force Cloak no longer reduces healing done and received".

 

Is the Dulfy tool-tip wrong? Has this been rolled into a passive, or just simply 'gone'? If the latter then boo, no more heals during our 'Oh S**t' moment, and back to having to wait before grabbing the PvP health boosts after escaping.

"Assassins have received a few quality of life improvements in the update. They will find that Force Cloak no longer prevents healing done or received while active."

 

Straight from http://www.swtor.com/info/news/blog/20141111

Edited November 21, 2014 by Herem

[Vodrin]

It's going to be interesting to see how deception/infiltration plays after the patch. From my perspective it seems like the spec will have better sustained damage with less burst, and better defensive cooldowns. We will have to wait and see if the improvements in sustained and defense are enough to compensate for the lost burst. Especially with the already strong balance/madness spec's seeming to get stronger in 3.0.

[Okod]

"Assassins have received a few quality of life improvements in the update. They will find that Force Cloak no longer prevents healing done or received while active."

 

Straight from http://www.swtor.com/info/news/blog/20141111

*cough* Well, I'm an idiot for completely missing that. Right there in the 2nd sentence and everything. Thanks!