Starfighter .. Great idea ... Poor Aplication!

[Verain]

The most dangerous build for gunships is actually a T1 scout with telemetry/laser/rockets and shield to engine.

 

I play a lot of gunship, and I would be much happier facing this build than quads and pods or bursts and clusters. MUCH happier. I can ion a shield to engine scout and snare them, or slug them and kill them, with MUCH greater ability than I can respond to a distortion field on any scout.

 

The type 1 scouts have nice speed and are good against gunships- but the type 2 scouts do it better. At this point, I feel absolutely confident about this. Both are serious threats, both can kill gunships, but disto is better at it.

 

 

 

Minor gripe: battlescout can take quick charge.

 

Quick charge is a lot worse on a scout than a strike. On a strike, it's not amazing shields. On a scout, it's essentially no shields.

 

The only unique strike component options are repair probes on the T3

 

Only strikes have ion cannon, the ability to switch primary weapons, repair probes, and remote slicing. Others, such as concussion missilest and quads are pretty common on strikes and rare elsewhere, or like heavies and shield to engine, available elsewhere but done better on a move maneuverable ship, and the strikes have that.

 

I don't think the issue with strikes is "not enough unique components". In fact, I'd love it if they fixed strikes just working with the base class and maybe a couple components that are just a bit undertuned for everyone.

 

 

Now on to OP, Worldwyde:

 

 

@OP, you posted this:

 

Thx for the feed back , it is appreciated

 

OK where to go?

 

I play Harbinger. and unfortunately .. on this server it is too common for routes .. and sadly a lot are 10000 - 42 or 50 - 0. in a day of playing (depending on if large guild presence might get half a dozen actually good games.

 

My Experience (this I will try to answer, but also avoids one of my points) I have 10 AV's I use .. and I try to play my Starfighter Dailey's (2- pts per day per av) if I manage to pull that off early (games queue fast) then I play an AV and still queue Starfighter. this comes out to a minimum of 10 games a day 5 days a week .. most weeks - and occasionally 20+ games in a day . Most Av's have 5 ships (a few have 3-4) and all are tier 3+.

 

In response to Drako:

You talked about how your experience was not in question since you've been playing since it first came out, if you wouldn't mind could you let us know how many games you've played?

 

You don't need a wall of text. You don't need to tell us you try to play your dailies, what server you play on, how many of the games you join are losses, whatever an "AV" is (Alterac Valley? Alluvian Velicociraptor? I don't know, nor does it matter!), what your minimum weekly threshold for GSF, and some time you think you played 21 games, who has 5 ships, and I seriously have no clue what "tier 3+" even means- the average upgrade level of your opponent's blasters? Shields? What?

 

Here's what drako asked:

 

HOW MANY GAMES YOU HAVE PLAYED

 

 

This is a number you can get by going to your hangar, clicking on records (little arrows, upper right), and then looking under all ships. It's A NUMBER, not a mile of prose. Just a number.

 

What is that number?

 

Also, since I'm sure you main battle scout or type 1 scout, can you tell us what your accuracy is? Do you have screenshots, or youtubes of you flying?

 

Yea .. I have used a FF to kill gs's .but it certainly requires a less than able GS pilot to let you sit behind him and blast him to bits

 

This is almost insulting to read, to be honest. No one is asking you to find gunships that are just a torso. By flying after a gunship you can harass and threaten and burst. Please watch Drako's videos when he is on a scout, or Scrab (who plays scout almost exclusively).

 

 

Drako: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCvcQUMFdrTP6HONxMqu7-0w/videos

Scrab: https://www.youtube.com/user/scrabpwntech/videos

 

 

an experienced GS pilot in a maxed ship .. will virtually rule the "Space"

 

You don't know enough about GSF to make that claim. It's certainly popular to ask for gunship nerfs, especially battle scout mains who are new to the game. I sincerely hope they don't balance the game around that skill level, though. Gunships need to remain a serious threat in solo and team play.

 

personally .. I like the crew skills ... I think it would be a better game if the crew members enhanced the ship abilities and all the other upgrades were cast aside

 

So, GSF would be perfect for you if they just threw away all our progression utterly, and came out with an entirely different game that was completely and utterly unlike this one in requisition and components. You'd be happy if they would just delete two of the four classes or nerf them to worthlessness, and then also delete the requisition that people have spent a year gaining.

 

That sounds so good. So reasonable.

 

 

 

Please just go watch the videos, read the Stasiepedia ( http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=729222 ), and just stop it with your requests to remove classes, gearing, grouping, and anything else you perceive actually makes you lose. These are features of the game, not bugs. They are selling points, good things. In this thread you have literally asked for maneuverability nerfs to bombers, every possible nerf to gunships, and you even asked for a nerf to a scout you don't personally main. You just want to be more powerful, and you don't care about anything else in that quest.

Edited November 14, 2014 by Verain

[Fractalsponge]

Maybe it's a Shadowlands thing, but the StE scouts seems to be much more annoying. Probably a matter of approach; those scouts tend to get the jump on me more than the dfield battlescouts. If I'm alerted to a charging scout that worth my attention, I would certainly prefer it to be a non-dfield one, but most of the time the counter is the same - get one shot, likely miss it, then either run or evade until getting a peel.

[Gavin_Kelvar]

the standard start up for f2p is a scout and a strike. for sub's scout strike and GS.

 

Just to point out that many subs are also just T1 scout and strike. The three ship setup was only for those subbed before a certain day before the early access started. For example, I resubbed in time for day 1 of early access but too late to get a free GS so on a fresh alt I'm indistinguishable from a "F2P"

[Verain]

Just to point out that many subs are also just T1 scout and strike. The three ship setup was only for those subbed before a certain day before the early access started. For example, I resubbed in time for day 1 of early access but too late to get a free GS so on a fresh alt I'm indistinguishable from a "F2P"

 

I had been hoping GSF would have been a launch thing, given that it had been referred to when this game was still in pre-alpha, but dialled back before beta. So I was pleased as punch to hear that it was actually going to happen, and I was sure to subscribe to a game that I didn't play before the specified date- I didn't know what any of the paintships and gunjobs that were mentioned in the promo actually were yet, but I figured, I would probably want them.

 

And unlike almost every other preorder bonus in most of these games, a year in I'm still very happy with that. Every alt I roll gets a free copy of my best ship, and while I may not roll as many alts as Drako, it is still a thing I do. I really like it, for sure.

[Gavin_Kelvar]

I had been hoping GSF would have been a launch thing, given that it had been referred to when this game was still in pre-alpha, but dialled back before beta. So I was pleased as punch to hear that it was actually going to happen, and I was sure to subscribe to a game that I didn't play before the specified date- I didn't know what any of the paintships and gunjobs that were mentioned in the promo actually were yet, but I figured, I would probably want them.

 

And unlike almost every other preorder bonus in most of these games, a year in I'm still very happy with that. Every alt I roll gets a free copy of my best ship, and while I may not roll as many alts as Drako, it is still a thing I do. I really like it, for sure.

 

Oh I don't mean to suggest that the preorder bonus wasn't good or otherwise unfair (I'm happy with the strike/scout paintjobs I did get). I simply meant to observe that two shippers doesn't automatically mean "F2P" (which I feel tends to be used pejoratively on the forums/in game).

 

For what it's worth I didn't sub until after the date because I had work that prevented me from really making use of a sub. By the time my schedule freed up so renewing my sub would be worth it the free extra ship deal had already passed. I honestly didn't mind not getting a gunship since I figured I'd only want to fly strikers and scouts anyway, something that has more or less remained true to this day; I've tried the T3 GS and while it's fun, railgun sniping isn't my cup of tea. All in all I don't mind not having a GS since it'd mostly stay in the hanger anyway.

[Worldwyde]

Can I ask what you use as your engine ability? Personally, what I do on all of my gunship hunters is to run w/ barrel roll or power dive. I use my engine ability as my gap closer typically pointed well above the gunship so they lose me from their LoS. With barrel roll this means I am usually w/in 5-6km by the end of my roll and am often behind them. This has the benefit of preserving almost all of my engine power for giving chase if/when the gunship breaks away after I open up on it. The other bonus of barrel roll is that for most gunship pilots it makes you a VERY hard target to hit while you are closing the gap. With regular boosters you really aren't that challenging of a target: particularly if you are flying straight so often times by the time you get to your target gunship you have taken a shot from his friend.

 

I think you main issue with the Flashfire is that you simply have a sub-optimal build for gunship hunting. The Flashfire is capable of doing everything the NovaDive can do, and doing it with more shields to boot. You like rocket podding gunships? Me too! The Flashfire does that every bit as well as the Nova Dive. Do you like bursting them down w/ primary weapons? Me too! The Flashfire does that even better than the Nova Dive in most situations with BLCs that ignore armor and the option for Blaster Overcharge or TT. The only things the Flashfire lacks that the NovaDive has are Laser Cannons (great weapons, but suboptimal for bursting down gunships) and a sensor component (almost totally useless) . In exchange you get a wider variety of (in my opinion) better primary weapons offerings, access to blaster overcharge, and a shield component to make you tankier.

 

There is a fair chance that you have more invested in your Nova Dive, req-wise, since it is one of your starter ships, but that isn't really the Flashfire's fault. If you switched to the Flashfire you would quickly discover that it is a superior ship in just about every way conceivable.

 

 

My FF is actually tier 5 .. but for some reason .. I don't recall it having the ability to be equipped with Dumb fire rockets ... I'll have to double check .. but that would bring up a another issue. I prefer my FF as a dog-fighter and like the clusters in that role - which brings another game short-coming: we should either be able to change modes and characteristics in the re-spawn menu or have more than one copy of a ship type to equip for the changing field (ie re-spawning players changing from scout to GS or etc.

[btbarrett]

My FF is actually tier 5 .. but for some reason .. I don't recall it having the ability to be equipped with Dumb fire rockets ... I'll have to double check .. but that would bring up a another issue. I prefer my FF as a dog-fighter and like the clusters in that role

 

Let me save you a smidgeon of time: it does have that ability. I run BLC and rocket pods on my Sting, but I absolutely agree that it is difficult to give up Clusters on a FF/Sting.

 

which brings another game short-coming: we should either be able to change modes and characteristics in the re-spawn menu or have more than one copy of a ship type to equip for the changing field (ie re-spawning players changing from scout to GS or etc.

 

I disagree that this is a shortcoming. It just means that you have to be more strategic in how you build your ships, in my opinion. It also requires that, in most cases, you have more than one ship that you have some req poured into. If you could switch builds on the fly (or between respawns at least), I think the game would be completely dominated by about 4 ships. You can argue that it is already, but you at least see a diversity of ships on a game to game basis. That wouldn't be true if you could hotswap your builds. Who would ever use a t1 scout when a t2 does everything a t1 can do, and do it better?

[Worldwyde]

Minor gripe #2. Ion Cannons on the T1 are unique. But I also was about to point out that the T2 scout has access to Quick Charge Shield. I largely agree with the rest of your strike assessment, though. I love flying the T1, but not because it's a beast. It's just fun to fly.

 

To the OP - It looks like most of your gripes center around Gunships. I can definitely understand that, since, as a scout pilot, they really, really annoy me at times with their range, and occasional elusiveness. I'll note, though, that it's really only the best of the best that can truly make it difficult for me to catch and end them when I'm in a Scout.

 

As for the T1/T2 debate as a counter to Gunships, I do think the T1 has a slight edge in the case, but the reason is that it is a specialized build, and you don't often specialize the T2 in the same way. But you can definitely make a GS hunter out of a T2, and one equipped with Barrel Roll, Quads, Pods, and BO can truly make short work of a GS.

 

The thing with the T2 is that you're often looking for a balance between being really good at taking out gunships/bombers, and being really good at dogfighting. There are very few "wrong" ways to build the T2, but I think it's very true that the further you take it in specializing in turning battles, speed, or burst damage, the worse you make it in the other areas. It's just something to keep in mind.

 

It also sounds like you're making an error on approach, and I would guess it's similar to one I used to make. I found myself overshooting GSers before they were dead because of RNG/Evasion, Fortress Shields, etc, and once I passed them, it made finishing them EXTREMELY difficult. I'd have to turn around, find them again as they ran (or stayed), and line up another pass, but in that kind of tight operational space (especially if they stay put), you run the risk of turning too early, and not giving yourself another good pass before you go beyond them again. If they run, you're out of position, and you give them an extremely solid head start, which makes catching them very difficult.

 

Try parking the car. Not for long, but try to fly into your damage range (not long range, especially if they're not aware of you). That's usually somewhere between 500-1500m. Then hit "x" to stop, and open up with weapons. If I'm rocking Clusters, I'll often forego the lock if I know they haven't seen me, because I don't want to let them know I'm there audibly. So I will often rely simply on BLCs in that situation, and then use Clusters if/when they run.

 

By doing this, you actually force them to run or die. And then you are in prime position to follow. You don't want to stay parked too long because you're a sitting duck when you do it, but you can usually allow yourself the time for 4-6 BLC shots, which should be enough to chew through a GS. If you're running Rocket Pods, you speed up the clock considerably, into the 2-3 "volley" range ("volley" defined by clicking both mouse buttons at the same time to fire 1 BLC shot and 1 Pod).

 

The "bomberball" strat to a TDM is annoying because it is very effective, and requires a lot of team coordination to break up. It's so easy to set up that it can make collections of good pilots who may or may not know each other look like a premade, and it comes close to needing a premade/voice to counter. Or at a minimum, someone who is willing to be a team player, and swap to a sub optimal ship to deal with the bombs, and then let his friends go in and clean up. As a solo-queueing scout, it's not the sort of thing you can truly counter on your own, but this is kind of as it should be, because if you make it too easy to break up, then you kind of invalidate a very good team strategy.

 

Honestly, one of the best things BioWare could do to "fix" this would be to actually have the EMP effects match their tooltips, or maybe even buff them slightly. Right now, it's the sort of effect you want on the bar to deal with bomberballs, but it is a highly specialized ship with only one real role, which keeps most people from playing it. To the solo-queuer, flying it effectively means nerfing yourself to bolster your team, which isn't an appealing option, especially if you feel like you're the most capable killer on the team.

 

Personally, I prefer EMP missiles, and actually have a Quell build I will put on my bar that is specifically set up to go in after bomber nests. EMP from range, Clusters and Quads for when you get in close, and all the Damage Reduction I can throw on it. It's a garbage ship for real dogfighting, or going after gunships, but it can go in and clear out bombs. And now that I think about it, it might be better with Heavies and Concussions over Quads and Clusters because of the armor ignore and extra range... But the point is the same. It is a ship that has exactly 1 purpose, and it sucks for pretty much all other scenarios.

 

 

I do use the strategy that u have explained here ... but I do "over-shoot" the target occasionally and on my server(harbinger) it is generally a GS rich environment which simply means .. stopping is not often an option and if the parked GS starts moving just as I get in range .. then he will definitely stop and force a by-pass (unless he is a poor pilot - which = dead gs in 3-4 secs) and get a cluster shot locked, as I try to turn back and "X" cuts power .. it is not the instant stop the GS has - so I am forced to glide to a stop

[Worldwyde]

Let me save you a smidgeon of time: it does have that ability. I run BLC and rocket pods on my Sting, but I absolutely agree that it is difficult to give up Clusters on a FF/Sting.

 

 

 

I disagree that this is a shortcoming. It just means that you have to be more strategic in how you build your ships, in my opinion. It also requires that, in most cases, you have more than one ship that you have some req poured into. If you could switch builds on the fly (or between respawns at least), I think the game would be completely dominated by about 4 ships. You can argue that it is already, but you at least see a diversity of ships on a game to game basis. That wouldn't be true if you could hotswap your builds. Who would ever use a t1 scout when a t2 does everything a t1 can do, and do it better?

 

true enough ... but if everyone can swap ships in re-spawn queue .. then its only logical that we can have several same ship builds or mod-able ordnances from the Queue

[btbarrett]

I do use the strategy that u have explained here ... but I do "over-shoot" the target occasionally and on my server(harbinger) it is generally a GS rich environment which simply means .. stopping is not often an option and if the parked GS starts moving just as I get in range .. then he will definitely stop and force a by-pass (unless he is a poor pilot - which = dead gs in 3-4 secs) and get a cluster shot locked, as I try to turn back and "X" cuts power .. it is not the instant stop the GS has - so I am forced to glide to a stop

 

One thing I would caution you of (and it is something I am guilty of myself at times) is don't just go for the first gunship you see. You have to play your gunship-hunter like a rogue. Sneak up behind the ones at the periphery of the group and start taking people out. If you harass the gunships in the front or middle of a GS wall, all of his buddies see you and have a bead on you. If you attack the ones in the rear or on the far sides A.) you are less likely to draw the attention of his teammates, and B.) they are less likely to be in range of you. If they are clustered together, I think it works to your advantage because then you can pretty effectively harass 2-3 gunships simultaneously with little extra expenditure of effort on your part. Perhaps you won't kill any of them, but you will certainly make them think twice about tunnel visioning down their scope at your team.

 

I think that actually might be one of the most important things to keep in mind. Don't play for your spot on the scoreboard. Quite often I don't have the highest damage or kills on my team, but if I disrupt the other team's best players and prevent them from dominating I am always pleased with how I played. Perhaps you are a far superior player than me (there are certainly many who are) and therefore need to be the one leading the team in damage/kills, but just keep in mind that the scoreboard doesn't always tell the full story and to that extent, you don't always have to kill a gunship to be an effective counter.

Edited November 18, 2014 by btbarrett

[Worldwyde]

One thing I would caution you of (and it is something I am guilty of myself at times) is don't just go for the first gunship you see. You have to play your gunship-hunter like a rogue. Sneak up behind the ones at the periphery of the group and start taking people out. If you harass the gunships in the front or middle of a GS wall, all of his buddies see you and have a bead on you. If you attack the ones in the rear or on the far sides A.) you are less likely to draw the attention of his teammates, and B.) they are less likely to be in range of you. If they are clustered together, I think it works to your advantage because then you can pretty effectively harass 2-3 gunships simultaneously with little extra expenditure of effort on your part. Perhaps you won't kill any of them, but you will certainly make them think twice about tunnel visioning down their scope at your team.

 

I think that actually might be one of the most important things to keep in mind. Don't play for your spot on the scoreboard. Quite often I don't have the highest damage or kills on my team, but if I disrupt the other team's best players and prevent them from dominating I am always pleased with how I played. Perhaps you are a far superior player than me (there are certainly many who are) and therefore need to be the one leading the team in damage/kills, but just keep in mind that the scoreboard doesn't always tell the full story and to that extent, you don't always have to kill a gunship to be an effective counter.

 

 

Agreed. and I actually do just that.. and incase my post was misinterpreted, in fair matches I usually am top 5 over all in the entire field and have appearance's at the top spot .. in the complete wipe outs I am generally top 3 for my sect .. and in those lopsided matches (10- <5 and 10000 - <200}, which are nearly always against a gs rich guild. (I never try for the best position in a match - Just to play the best I can against the field that is handed to me. I only harass the gs's and always try to pick an attack line that comes from an opposing angle to the most offset ship ... but as stated b4, as soon as I drop in on a run ... I never seem to get more than 40% damage on a gs before it moves .. and by then he/she has already squawked to their mates on the team speak and I have up to 6 gs's firing at me ..

 

OHH and the other day I got killed three times by gs's that somehow hit me in the MIDDLE of missile lock evading turn... >that should be an impossible shot ..(3-times, one game)

 

And here is one more tid-bit, I saw a gs' dog fighting three ships (yes 3 on 1 - DOGFIGHT) and before I could join, the gs killed all three, so I was thinking " wow, those guys must suck!" = then I went at him one on one (I have like a 95%+ survival rate one on one with GS's) - killed me in one shot (clusters maxed and double stacked) - probly on a combo with quads... but the point is: he thrusted , I chased, he stopped on a dime (I can't ) , so I by pass to turn. he auto-rotates to me and goes straight to missle lock, = me dead before I finished my turn - went back 2 more times- same result .. (GS's should not be that effective in a dogfight ,, and all ships should stop on a dime - or - no ship should stop on a dime.

[Drakkolich]

And here is one more tid-bit, I saw a gs' dog fighting three ships (yes 3 on 1 - DOGFIGHT) and before I could join, the gs killed all three, so I was thinking " wow, those guys must suck!" = then I went at him one on one (I have like a 95%+ survival rate one on one with GS's) - killed me in one shot (clusters maxed and double stacked) - probly on a combo with quads... but the point is: he thrusted , I chased, he stopped on a dime (I can't ) , so I by pass to turn. he auto-rotates to me and goes straight to missle lock, = me dead before I finished my turn - went back 2 more times- same result .. (GS's should not be that effective in a dogfight ,, and all ships should stop on a dime - or - no ship should stop on a dime.

 

This is why we need videos.

 

- A gunship cannot have both rotational thrusters and cluster missiles.

 

- A gunship cannot use Quad laser cannon.

 

 

I could also talk about all the defensive options you could have done not to put yourself in that position but honestly theres too many. If a gunship really did that to you, he just outplayed the hell out of you.

[Ramalina]

My FF is actually tier 5 .. but for some reason .. I don't recall it having the ability to be equipped with Dumb fire rockets ... I'll have to double check .. but that would bring up a another issue. I prefer my FF as a dog-fighter and like the clusters in that role - which brings another game short-coming: we should either be able to change modes and characteristics in the re-spawn menu or have more than one copy of a ship type to equip for the changing field (ie re-spawning players changing from scout to GS or etc.

 

Cartel market ships. Get them from the cartel market, or look for them on the GTN.

 

T1 strike, T2 scout, T1 gunship, T2 gunship, and Dronecarrier are available in cartel market versions.

 

You can have two of any of those types of ship on your bar, the normal one and the cartel variant.

 

Note, the cartel market starships are faction specific, so check to make sure you're picking the kind that's compatible with the faction of the character you want to use it with before you purchase.

[Lendul]

Agreed. and I actually do just that.. and incase my post was misinterpreted, in fair matches I usually am top 5 over all in the entire field and have appearance's at the top spot .. in the complete wipe outs I am generally top 3 for my sect .. and in those lopsided matches (10- <5 and 10000 - <200}, which are nearly always against a gs rich guild. (I never try for the best position in a match - Just to play the best I can against the field that is handed to me. I only harass the gs's and always try to pick an attack line that comes from an opposing angle to the most offset ship ... but as stated b4, as soon as I drop in on a run ... I never seem to get more than 40% damage on a gs before it moves .. and by then he/she has already squawked to their mates on the team speak and I have up to 6 gs's firing at me ..

 

OHH and the other day I got killed three times by gs's that somehow hit me in the MIDDLE of missile lock evading turn... >that should be an impossible shot ..(3-times, one game)

 

And here is one more tid-bit, I saw a gs' dog fighting three ships (yes 3 on 1 - DOGFIGHT) and before I could join, the gs killed all three, so I was thinking " wow, those guys must suck!" = then I went at him one on one (I have like a 95%+ survival rate one on one with GS's) - killed me in one shot (clusters maxed and double stacked) - probly on a combo with quads... but the point is: he thrusted , I chased, he stopped on a dime (I can't ) , so I by pass to turn. he auto-rotates to me and goes straight to missle lock, = me dead before I finished my turn - went back 2 more times- same result .. (GS's should not be that effective in a dogfight ,, and all ships should stop on a dime - or - no ship should stop on a dime.

Okay I have been playing on The Harbinger from the very beginning. Despair's gunship wall is wrecking you because you play Flashfire wrong. People have tried to help you and you will not listen. It is what it is man. People that think they got everything all figured out will never improve. So you are capped because of your stubborness. If I can break their wall with a Pike for crying out loud, then you should be able to do it with Flashfire easily if you are close to as good as you think you are.

Edited November 26, 2014 by Lendul

[Verain]

Finally, a call out from someone who has seen this guy play. Thank you. Someone reading this thread might come to the wrong conclusion about him without that.

[ALaggyGrunt]

You do not solo Despair's gunship wrecking ball. Been there, tried. If we have only you to think about, you will be slugged to death before you even get close, unless we're careless and complacent (which I've seen and punished hard for when flying as a pub). If we have something else to think about (other angry scouts and enemy gunships), you can be a threat and keep our gunships from just killing everything while asleep at the controls, and get some of us out of our gunships.

We don't fly only gunships and bombers, we just fly way too many.

 

The solution to that problem is, sadly, to jump over impside and force us to wargame.

 

Heh, we even ran a mostly-strike match today in a wargame. Half of us can't fly anything else.

Edited November 27, 2014 by ALaggyGrunt