So with 3.0 we're paying to get nerfed, basically.

[Levram]

And it makes sense, if you talk to any progression raider they will tell you that in the current content, the DPS checks are almost a non-factor except for a couple fights. Which makes perfect sense with the dev's livestream content about how most DPS specs where outperforming their targets, which would explain why DPS checks are mostly trivial.

 

Hello, I'm a nightmare progression raider. I can confirm that the above statement is factual.

 

In all of nightmare Dread Fortress and Dread Palace there are only a few remaining DPS checks that might cause a bead of sweat to appear on the brows of the group's damage dealers.

• Brontes - Parts 1, 2 and 3 of the final burn phase
  
• Bestia - the entire fight is a race to beat the soft enrage at 8:20
  
• Raptus - not failing either DPS challenge
  
• Council - Phase 2 with Styrak and Brontes

 

For the truly great nightmare progression teams, there are only two DPS checks that still matter to them. Brontes' burn phase and Council's Phase 2.

 

Top progression DPS are clearly outperforming the Developer's target levels. When teams were in full 180 min/max gear, the DPS checks were appropriately balanced (i.e. almost all fights were very challenging for many progression teams.) Once a team had, let's say, 20% of their DPS's gear upgraded to 186 min/max (with 180 main hands), most fights flipped immediately into "farm mode" except for Brontes and Council. Turning off Nightmare Power also factored into this change as bored healers started to contribute more DPS as well.

 

A progression team who is geared in 75%+ 186 min/max basically just sleepwalks though eight of the ten current nightmare fights now. From Rob Hinkle's comments in the latest Developer LiveStream, this is not what they want these fights to feel like at Level 55 in current gear levels. They want "sleepwalking through nightmare DF and DP" to occur when players are Level 60 in 198 min/max gear, which seems completely appropriate.

 

…the biggest thing I think is we wanted to look at how the damage was globally on, like, all the Classes, especially how they interacted with in the end-game stuff, like the nightmare mode Operations, especially, you know, Dread Fortress and Dread Palace. And sort of what we decided is that the Classes had kind of started to exceed the baseline values that we originally had set-up for everything, and since we’re going through and doing this big Discipline reorganization anyway, we decided to take the opportunity to get the Classes back to what the Operations expected.

 

...“Creeping up a little bit higher” is a good way to put it. So when we came through and I was talking to George, the Operations guy, we decided that we were going to get everyone back to where they’re suppose to be, come 60. So the end result is that players at Level 60 are going to actually end up about where they are right now at Level 55.

[Thoop]

I don't care about the numbers as absolutes, only how they relate to each other.

 

I do care if content I do every day that goes quickly if I put a touch of thought and effort into it, becomes a numbing grind as if I were wearing all green drops after 3.0 hits.

 

how dare they force us to use thought and effort to play a game, thanks bioware

[Max_Killjoy]

how dare they force us to use thought and effort to play a game, thanks bioware

 

Try reading the post you were responding to again.

[Thoop]

This. We'll see how it goes but I suspect that the big worry is going to be "Oh joy. I've gone back to trying to get through Makeb with the equivalent of 160 gear instead of 180 gear I painstakingly grinded to get" or "Joy. Until we grind up our gear again, DF SM plays like HM or even NiM". or even "Sooooo, trying to get through Ilum is like trying to solo DF".

 

Okay, maybe not as bad as the last one but still.....

 

Point is that, at level 60, we should all be able to do things like solo Level 50 Flashpoints. If we can't, then it is a major nerf. The actual numbers mean less than the ability to play the game.

 

how dare they not let us solo content designed for 4 players, major nerf, thanks bioware

[DarthTHC]

I don't know about you, but I'm paying for the new content. The 12xp bonus for 2 months doesn't hurt, either.

 

I don't much care about the math. It works the same way whether you're level 10 or level 55. You fight on-level mobs and they take about as long to kill each level. Only difference is their names and the loot they drop, and you get a few more buttons to smash the higher level you get.

[Max_Killjoy]

how dare they not let us solo content designed for 4 players, major nerf, thanks bioware

 

You seem to have missed the part where the content in question is 5-10 levels below the level of the character.

[Thoop]

Try reading the post you were responding to again.

 

k, your pissed your toon might have a slightly harder time flying through daily content that you don't want them to make it any more challenging to the point where you would have to think about what you are doing, is that about right?

 

who will think of the poor poor gamers when they have to use 3 global to kill a mob instead of 2, oh the humanity

[Thoop]

You seem to have missed the part where the content in question is 5-10 levels below the level of the character.

 

still dosnt change the fact that content was designed to be played by a group of four players

 

if our damage boost from the 10 levels is enough that you can replace 3 other player entirely from your party, well i would say that maybe that increase to damage might be a tad high and adjustments should be made, oh wait that's exactly what the devs are already doing, nothing to see here

[Max_Killjoy]

k, your pissed your toon might have a slightly harder time flying through daily content that you don't want them to make it any more challenging to the point where you would have to think about what you are doing, is that about right?

 

who will think of the poor poor gamers when they have to use 3 global to kill a mob instead of 2, oh the humanity

 

Your response -- in content, tone, and attitude -- betrays a haste to belittle and demean instead of putting the thought and effort into understanding what you're responding to. You're so eager to put find someone's shoulders to stand on that it's clear you're drowning. Your use of a strawman to distort the position of the post you're replying to only makes it more telling.

 

If you bother to take a moment to go back and actually read the post you were replying to, you'll note that the content in question is said to go quickly WITH thought and effort, and that the concern is that 3.0 will make that same content into a numbing grind, which to any calm and thoughtful reading indicates a lot more than an extra GD.

 

In fact, nothing at all was even said about how many GDs it might take before and after, and nothing is said about it being "faceroll" or whatever the stupid meme-of-the-week is.

 

 

still dosnt change the fact that content was designed to be played by a group of four players

 

if our damage boost from the 10 levels is enough that you can replace 3 other player entirely from your party, well i would say that maybe that increase to damage might be a tad high and adjustments should be made, oh wait that's exactly what the devs are already doing, nothing to see here

 

First, you fail to establish any reason at all why being able to solo group content from 5-10 levels lower is in any way objectionable. The character gets minimal or no XP, and no level-relevant gear, from doing so, and the main benefit is to the player, who gets to see content he/she may otherwise have missed.

 

Second, it's not typically damage output that allows characters to solo content at that level gap, but rather the inability of mot mobs to do significant damage to the character. Fights are still long, but rarely is the character in any real danger. It's not until the level gap gets even larger that a lone PC simply mows through mobs like it's harvest time.

 

Third, who the heck cares what the content was "intended" for at huge gaps in level?

Edited November 1, 2014 by Max_Killjoy

[Jeweledleah]

This. We'll see how it goes but I suspect that the big worry is going to be "Oh joy. I've gone back to trying to get through Makeb with the equivalent of 160 gear instead of 180 gear I painstakingly grinded to get" or "Joy. Until we grind up our gear again, DF SM plays like HM or even NiM". or even "Sooooo, trying to get through Ilum is like trying to solo DF".

 

Okay, maybe not as bad as the last one but still.....

 

Point is that, at level 60, we should all be able to do things like solo Level 50 Flashpoints. If we can't, then it is a major nerf. The actual numbers mean less than the ability to play the game.

 

ok, that is reasonable. and is a bit of a concern for me as well. I'm hoping that given their statement on adjusting leveling content- they include lvl 55 content in that adjustment as well.. since it also now becomes leveling content.

 

we'll see

 

but yeah, we are not actualy paying to get nerfed, that part is automatic for everyone, including those f2p

[Thoop]

Your response -- in content, tone, and attitude -- betrays a haste to belittle and demean instead of putting the thought and effort into understanding what you're responding to. You're so eager to put find someone's shoulders to stand on that it's clear you're drowning. Your use of a strawman to distort the position of the post you're replying to only makes it more telling.

 

If you bother to take a moment to go back and actually read the post you were replying to, you'll note that the content in question is said to go quickly WITH thought and effort, and that the concern is that 3.0 will make that same content into a numbing grind, which to any calm and thoughtful reading indicates a lot more than an extra GD.

 

In fact, nothing at all was even said about how many GDs it might take before and after, and nothing is said about it being "faceroll" or whatever the stupid meme-of-the-week is.

 

 

 

 

First, you fail to establish any reason at all why being able to solo group content from 5-10 levels lower is in any way objectionable. The character gets minimal or no XP, and no level-relevant gear, from doing so, and the main benefit is to the player, who gets to see content he/she may otherwise have missed.

 

Second, it's not typically damage output that allows characters to solo content at that level gap, but rather the inability of mot mobs to do significant damage to the character. Fights are still long, but rarely is the character in any real danger. It's not until the level gap gets even larger that a lone PC simply mows through mobs like it's harvest time.

 

Third, who the heck cares what the content was "intended" for at huge gaps in level?

 

sorry i originally misunderstood you

now everything is clear

 

you are QQ ing for the sake of QQ, thanks again for clearing that up

also how dare bioware make us think when we grind, those bastards

[Max_Killjoy]

sorry i originally misunderstood you

now everything is clear

 

you are QQ ing for the sake of QQ, thanks again for clearing that up

also how dare bioware make us think when we grind, those bastards

 

Thank you for continuing to demonstrate my point about your previous posts.

[bseefeldt]

I just wish this was a real expansion! no new classes to go along with balance / Nerf. No new GSF stuff, no new pvp content, no new companions, no new species to chose from. No new strongholds, no third faction. So what we do get is 5 more levels to grind gear that is as good as what we have now on 2 new planets. O and a Darth Reven statue you can get in a CC pack sounds great lol. But to be honest its only 20$ so no big deal but this is a sorry expansion. Edited November 1, 2014 by bseefeldt

[ZETA_SCORPII]

I feel sorry for everyone who says "every MMO does this". There has to be a better way, otherwise a lot of our hard work gets pissed down the drain. As I said in a previous post, this is NOT progression. There has to be a better way and you should not conform to these types of practices in MMO's.

[Reno_Tarshil]

But you're not getting nerfed.

 

You're being readjusted to the levels Bioware wants you at.

[Druenos]

wrong chat Edited November 1, 2014 by Druenos

[Max_Killjoy]

But you're not getting nerfed.

 

You're being readjusted to the levels Bioware wants you at.

 

That really depends on how they adjust the content around the characters. IF the same content is harder for the same character to complete, then it is objectively a "nerf".

[Transairion]

A progression team who is geared in 75%+ 186 min/max basically just sleepwalks though eight of the ten current nightmare fights now. From Rob Hinkle's comments in the latest Developer LiveStream, this is not what they want these fights to feel like at Level 55 in current gear levels. They want "sleepwalking through nightmare DF and DP" to occur when players are Level 60 in 198 min/max gear, which seems completely appropriate.

 

 

And herein lies my problem: the ONLY people who's DPS will get back to the same level are NiM Progression raiders.

 

 

Meanwhile I'm going to stuck with my sub-Nightmare gear, trying to do Dailes that now "magically" hit harder (slower interrupts) and take longer to kill (lower DPS) because I'm never going to get 198 min/max gear. I'm clearly not who the Dev's want to nerf, but I'm getting my DPS lowered anyway "just cause it's better design".

 

 

The only things to be "compensated so they don't become too hard" are the 1-50 leveling, and possibly DF/DP. They've never said anything else will change, Oricon's Commander Daily won't suddenly all have half hp and not spam abilities constantly... but we'll do less DPS and have a longer cd interrupt.

 

Heck speaking of NiM EC unless they go back and adjust ALL Ops, which they HAVEN'T said they'll do, the first stage interrupt spam will be impossible.

 

 

Literally everyone's DPS is going down, essentially, to tune down NiM groups who were "sleepwalking too fast". Which they're going to do anyway.

 

 

 

I really shouldn't walk into 3.0, get to level 60, and have a harder time doing Dailes than I am right now. I shouldn't have a harder time fighting literally everything 50-55 out there. Which is going to happen unless the dev's actually make a point to address it...

 

 

TLDR: It's going to feel really crummy to pay for an expansion, get it, get to level 60 and have MORE difficulty with OLDER content because of DPS being cut.

Edited November 2, 2014 by Transairion

[HelinCarnate]

And people wonder why the devs don't give out info about upcoming changes that often.

[ivanhedgehog]

k, your pissed your toon might have a slightly harder time flying through daily content that you don't want them to make it any more challenging to the point where you would have to think about what you are doing, is that about right?

 

who will think of the poor poor gamers when they have to use 3 global to kill a mob instead of 2, oh the humanity

 

if the devs want to tune the game to keep top progression raiders happy, they need to come out and say it. the 60 dev staff from wildstar are already looking for new employment. catering to the hardcore didnt work out so well for them.

[ivanhedgehog]

And people wonder why the devs don't give out info about upcoming changes that often.

 

because if they didnt say anything about it, on patch day they would lose enough accounts to make NGE look mild. people dislike surprises like that. they are gambling that a majority of players will just grumble about it and continue funding the game. it is a gamble.this has the potential to be a bug ridden fiasco, I hope it doesnt happen, but it could. very little testing of the leveling experience that they are changing just to affect the dps of a very small % of the playerbase. a simple dps cap could have done the same thing without nearly the same problems.

[Max_Killjoy]

because if they didnt say anything about it, on patch day they would lose enough accounts to make NGE look mild. people dislike surprises like that. they are gambling that a majority of players will just grumble about it and continue funding the game. it is a gamble.this has the potential to be a bug ridden fiasco, I hope it doesnt happen, but it could. very little testing of the leveling experience that they are changing just to affect the dps of a very small % of the playerbase. a simple dps cap could have done the same thing without nearly the same problems.

 

I'm still curious and a touch concerned about what effect this will have on those of us who are content to do the dailies on Oricon, etc, and a few heroics a day... it's not like we're doing those for the challenge, just the credits.

 

(inB4 "if you're not being challenged, you should quit, scrub" comment is made by a random poster...)

Edited November 2, 2014 by Max_Killjoy

[Halinalle]

DPS1: "We are all overgeared so we can easily let healer deal with the adds."

DPS2: "True that!"

Healer: "Follow the kill order noobs!"

[BuriDogshin]

And people wonder why the devs don't give out info about upcoming changes that often.

It's just a small number of players, the usual prolific whiners. Most of the players I know just take in the info, say "that could be interesting," and start preparing for the change.

[Lotharofxev]

Every single MMO I have ever played, you were weaker when you logged in on expansion day than you were the previous day. They always at the very least adjust the ratings so players don't end up with things like 90% crit.

 

Hmm...I've played: The Realm (doesn't apply), EQ, DAOC, RIFT, WoW, SWTOR and a couple of others. In none of those did I log in, attempt to do content I had already cleared and find myself weaker.

 

Was I weaker because I was getting new (and improved gear) - yes. Was I weaker because the new MOBs hit a bit harder etc? Yes.

 

But I wasn't weaker simply by virtue of paying $20.00.

 

I certainly hope the Devs aren't planning on keeping DF / DP as "end game" Raids. I can see at 60 where those two become EC NiM / EV NiM equivalent, in that you run them for achievements. But not to remain in the position where they are now.