Aurbere Posted October 21, 2014 Author Share Posted October 21, 2014 I think the Revan novel as a whole suffered for having to play 'fill in the blank' way too much within the confines set by KotOR II and TOR, but as was said, that's a rant for another thread. With respect to Meetra Surik, I was less bothered by the different power levels displayed between Surik -> Nyriss -> Revan -> Emperor (although there was some DBZ-level stuff going on there, to be sure) then I was about how they took her character and made her completely defined by her relationship with Revan. It's perfectly summed up by Scourge's companion dialogue in TOR: "Even with all she had done, she never trusted herself. With Revan, she was his student again." Now, in general, having a character with those attributes wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing, but they do not map very well onto the Exile at all. She was in some ways the Luke Skywalker of her time - a (near) lone survivor left with the responsibility of rebuilding the Jedi Order after it had been decimated by the Sith. And I think more importantly, she starts KotOR II as a veteran (a commander even) who was recovering from a trauma instead of being the much more standard 'plucky young hero comes of age/into their own' player character archetype. Even though Revan had been her commander/master, those aspects of her character (which were pretty darn major aspects) do not really lend themselves to her being portrayed as "his student again" unless her sole purpose as a character is to prop up Revan in the narrative. In the end I feel like that's all she does - in the narrative she's reduced to a lens through which to view Revan or a plot device to move his story forward, rather than a fully-realized character in her own right. Even in a book that is called "Revan", that sort of treatment of the other 'main' characters opens up Revan to some fairly legitimate criticisms of being a Mary Sue/Marty Stu in the truest sense of the term, even more than any Super Saiyan Jedi powers he may show off. I would not have minded her death at all, if she had been a more fully-realized character through the rest of the book - but instead it ended up being one more example of her only serving the plot purpose of pushing forward Revan's story (again, I certainly accept there's going to be some degree of that in a book called "Revan" but the final product took it too far). You have summed up my thoughts on Meetra perfectly. /thumbs up Buuut, that won't stop me from committing my own thoughts to the subject in another rant thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarSquirrel Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 (edited) I disliked the Revan novel, and agree that Meetra was poorly represented in more than just her fight with Nyriss, though I'd like to argue that her death is important and useful for the storyline. Perhaps it bothers you, as you obviously think she deserves better, that her death was so quick, unceremonious, and seemingly meaningless. But I feel that ties in well with her role as a soldier without a war and allows Scourge's character to develop. Well her death worked as a fulfillment of what she survived at Malachor V. She cheated death as Revan led her to what could have been her doom. Here she did it again, but it shows the heroes don't always manage that amazing survival. As to her unceremonious death, It worked well for Scourge's character and Meetra didn't need nor deserve a brilliant death at this point. She'd done her job in keeping the galaxy safe and now she was reminiscing about when Revan and she were still fighting the Mandalorians together. It makes a great story for a soldier at war to sacrifice themselves or die in a blaze of glory. But when that soldier comes home and can't seem to settle down and they go and try to find trouble to stop the dynamic changes. Then it is not a noble goal, but boredom or personal quests/searches for happiness that gets them killed, and they don't get the blaze of glory, but a unceremonious and brutal death. Surik had her war, twice, and made it through. The book reads (to me) like all these characters just don't know what to do with themselves now that there is no war to fight and they just can't seem to settle down. This leads to that personal quest for usefulness that gets them in over their heads and gets them killed. At that point, if she got a glorious death it'd cheapen the work she already did, and make it seem she died having failed her goal. As it was, her death is unremarkable so we can better focus on what she accomplished. Scourge needed to kill Surik for two reasons. For one, he'd only killed 1 other person of any real power up to then so his power and intelligence were still relatively unknown, killing Surik helped give him some "street cred" leading up to his SWTOR debut (as much as stabbing someone in the back can give). But more importantly, it showed his resolve. It provided punctuation to the plan he'd developed as a means of defeating the Emperor. Without his killing her, Vitiate accepting him and the whole plan would have seemed trivial and silly. His willingness to kill the Jedi despite his LS leanings and demonstrating his patience and self-sacrifice (He'd essentially killed himself as he'd never be able to have and self-serving ambitions ) really sets up his character for SWTOR so that you can actually understand him without being totally skeptical of his ambitions and motives. That's my take, but as a whole I think you're about right on the Nyriss fight and that she was given a raw deal for the most part in the Revan novel. Edited October 21, 2014 by StarSquirrel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted October 21, 2014 Author Share Posted October 21, 2014 That's my take, but as a whole I think you're about right on the Nyriss fight and that she was given a raw deal for the most part in the Revan novel. You make an interesting point. However, it still feels like Karpyshyn didn't care enough about the character. You can bet that he would not have done that to Revan. While I understand that Scourge needed development, I feel that what Wicked said would have worked. Have her put up a fight against the Emperor when Revan is otherwise disabled, and then have Scourge betray them. It felt rushed and was unceremonious. And when I say unceremonious, I mean that it simply didn't feel right for the character and simply fell flat. Of course, I feel that my way of writing the fight would be better, but that's only because I thought of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morrolan Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 You make an interesting point. However, it still feels like Karpyshyn didn't care enough about the character. You can bet that he would not have done that to Revan. You guys are overestimating Karpyshyn's writing capabilities, he's a video game writer and simply not that good a novelist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted October 22, 2014 Author Share Posted October 22, 2014 You guys are overestimating Karpyshyn's writing capabilities, he's a video game writer and simply not that good a novelist. Fully understood. I'm not sure how I overestimate him though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted October 22, 2014 Author Share Posted October 22, 2014 It's not. Unfortunately... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karadron Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 You guys are overestimating Karpyshyn's writing capabilities, he's a video game writer and simply not that good a novelist. In reality he's done more novel writing than Revan, so he has experience. It's his handling of characters that annoys people. Pretty much Revan like god in practically all his works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 In reality he's done more novel writing than Revan, so he has experience. It's his handling of characters that annoys people. Pretty much Revan like god in practically all his works. The Bane novels sucked too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karadron Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 The Bane novels sucked too. I never read them so I wouldn't know. But it is in the context of his treatment of characters and in universe material rather than the English language, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted October 22, 2014 Author Share Posted October 22, 2014 I never read them so I wouldn't know. But it is in the context of his treatment of characters and in universe material rather than the English language, right? I don't know Sel's problems with it, but my biggest problem was having Revan invent the Rule of Two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nalathemaster Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 I don't know Sel's problems with it, but my biggest problem was having Revan invent the Rule of Two. I was always under the impression that Bane took some ideas from Revan, that when mixed with his own, resulted in the Rule of Two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthDymond Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 (edited) You guys are overestimating Karpyshyn's writing capabilities, he's a video game writer and simply not that good a novelist. He's certainly no Mark Twain or John Steinbeck, but among Star Wars authors I don't consider him particularly bad. Off-hand, Zahn, Stover and Stackpole are the only ones I'd say are consistently better (and Stackpole might be a case of personal bias more than anything). Karpyshyn strikes me as right on par with Allston, Luceno, Golden, Traviss and Denning (Allston might have been a touch better because the humor in his novels was always pretty entertaining). The Bane novels were all solid reads, and Annihilation was good (the only weak part was the interaction between Theron and his parents, seemed like K could have either done something more interesting with that dynamic at the front-end or left it out entirely). Edited October 22, 2014 by DarthDymond Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickious Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 (edited) I hated that book because of the way they handled TheExile. Didn't do that character justice at all. It really depressed me to because TheExile was one of my favorite characters in lore and they were proported as so inferior to Revan. PS yes I'm aware she is named Meetra, but I always prefered the enigma of having no name and it's what everyone called you in game. Edited October 22, 2014 by Nickious Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted October 22, 2014 Author Share Posted October 22, 2014 I was always under the impression that Bane took some ideas from Revan, that when mixed with his own, resulted in the Rule of Two. Been a while since I read it, but IIRC, Revan had the whole thing laid out in some speech, and Bane just went with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nalathemaster Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 Been a while since I read it, but IIRC, Revan had the whole thing laid out in some speech, and Bane just went with it. Oh, Really? Hmm, I think I'll go reread that part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morrolan Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 In reality he's done more novel writing than Revan, so he has experience. It's his handling of characters that annoys people. Pretty much Revan like god in practically all his works. I've also read his Mass Effect novels, they are also poor and I think with at least 1 of them I couldn't finish it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 He's certainly no Mark Twain or John Steinbeck, but among Star Wars authors I don't consider him particularly bad. Off-hand, Zahn, Stover and Stackpole are the only ones I'd say are consistently better (and Stackpole might be a case of personal bias more than anything). Karpyshyn strikes me as right on par with Allston, Luceno, Golden, Traviss and Denning (Allston might have been a touch better because the humor in his novels was always pretty entertaining). The Bane novels were all solid reads, and Annihilation was good (the only weak part was the interaction between Theron and his parents, seemed like K could have either done something more interesting with that dynamic at the front-end or left it out entirely).I agree with this, in comparison with his other works Revan is sub par. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadyKulvax Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 I'd love to know how you're tossing about these "spoilers" without being banned for NDA breaches. He isn't getting it from a beta... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cs_zoltan Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 "Welcome in the club Meetra" - General Grievous Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 Can I also add, if someone hasn't already, that Meetra Surik is a crap name? I mean seriously... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted October 22, 2014 Author Share Posted October 22, 2014 Can I also add, if someone hasn't already, that Meetra Surik is a crap name? I mean seriously... It's not very good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 It's not very good.Better than Sheev though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted October 22, 2014 Author Share Posted October 22, 2014 Better than Sheev though. Don't remind me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth_Wicked Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 (edited) Sheev Palpatine... Why? Why? On a second thought, after Stewjon and Conan Anttonio Motti -- plus Skywalker Wine -- I'm not sure why we should be surprised. Edited October 23, 2014 by Darth_Wicked Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niklarus Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 And to add to Aurbere's rant, I think BioWare are now mishandling Revan with this constant revival business. He's becoming the Jean Grey of Star Wars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts