Meetra Surik rant

[Aurbere]

I had originally planned to rant about the Revan novel as a whole, but I decided to trim it down. Why have I chosen to make this rant now? Because I've never really had the opportunity before. I've seen others go off on it, but I never really went after it the way I wanted to. So, better late than never, right?

 

Anyway, I trimmed this rant down to how I would have handled the Exile. I think many of us agree that how she was handled was poor, at best. I would rant about the character herself, but I think I’ll skip that for now and get straight to the meat of my rant, which is her performance against Nyriss.

 

Meetra Surik’s performance against Nyriss is literally abysmal. She has nothing over Nyriss. Nyriss completely dominates her; she’s practically a demigod in comparison. And then Revan comes in, fresh from whatever version of Hell he’s been through and utterly wastes Nyriss. There is literally no competition between the two.

 

But the big problem is what it does for the comparison between Meetra and Revan. Any logical comparison of the two before the novel was written would show that Revan and the Exile are certainly comparable. They both faced intense trials and became stronger for it. Heck, Meetra’s enemies were more dangerous and more powerful than Revan’s enemies.

 

What this battle in the novel shows is that they aren’t comparable; they aren’t even in the same league. Revan is blatantly superior. Unfortunately, this is written in such a way that it comes off as nothing more than a petty measuring contest, with Karpyshyn poorly attempting to make his character superior to the character created by another writer. It is in poor taste, and Karpyshyn utterly failed to consider the repercussions.

 

Why does it matter? Because you don’t do that to someone else’s character. Karpyshyn displayed minimal knowledge of KOTOR 2 and the Jedi Exile, and was thus incapable of making a proper comparison between the two. Essentially, he destroyed the character through sheer ignorance. Not only did he belittle the character, but her trials as well. The Exile went through Hell and back, overcame insurmountable odds, and became stronger for it.

 

How Meetra could go through all of that and still get completely wasted by a random Darth makes no logical sense to me. Further, there is no explanation for it. And that is why I say that Karpyshyn simply wanted to make a petty measuring contest between his creation and the creation of another. It is distasteful, petty, and ruins the dignity of a character and the events she starred in.

 

How would I have done it? I would have done it in similar fashion to how Vegeta finally admitted his inferiority to Goku in Dragon Ball Z. Basically, while Goku is fighting Kid Buu, Vegeta reflects on past battles and how Goku had always been better than him. Not just for his fighting skills, but his strength of character as well.

 

That is how I would have put Revan above Meetra. Have Revan actually fight Nyriss, but write it from Meetra’s perspective. Have her comment on Revan’s skill and power in the Force, have her comment on how Nyriss is no match for Revan. In that way, the gap between them is there, but it isn’t done tastelessly. Yes, it still accomplishes the same effect, but it isn’t an utter stomp. The reason that this way would have been (in my opinion) superior is because it doesn’t leave Meetra and Scourge as deadweight. Having Revan waste the same person that utterly outclassed his companions simply tells us that Meetra and Scourge are liabilities to Revan. They are nothing than meat shields for him.

 

But there is still one more thing that can be done to salvage Meetra’s character: change the way she died! She is simply stabbed in the back unceremoniously.

 

Again I will refer to the Vegeta/Goku vs. Kid Buu fight in Dragon Ball Z. Near the end of the fight, Vegeta is forced to buy Goku time to build up the Spirit Bomb. Essentially, Vegeta is walking into a fight he knows he can’t win.

 

How I would write the final battle in the novel is to have the Emperor overwhelm Revan’s defenses and severely injure him. At this time, Meetra actively puts herself between Vitiate and Revan and engages him in direct combat, buying Revan time to recover.

 

As this is happening, Revan is given the time to reflect on Meetra’s abilities. But not just her abilities, but the strength of her character as she sacrifices herself to save a man who had done so much evil, evil that had affected Meetra severely.

 

Inevitably, Meetra would be killed by the Emperor, but her death wouldn’t have been glossed over and unceremonious. She would have sacrificed herself to save a friend, which is a far more worthy death than what she was actually given.

 

But that’s how I would have handled those fights. To be honest, I would have written the novel entirely differently. But I think I’ll end it here. If you read the whole thing, thank you. If you agree, thank you. If you disagree, that’s fine. I don’t expect everyone to agree, nor do I expect this to do anything. I’m just venting.

[Wolfninjajedi]

Eh, wouldn't be the first nor last time a character has been cheapened or thrown to the side or completely turned 180 in regards to power and everything. There are quite a few inconsistencies with different characters and it's just.....so bad. Same with some stories as a whole really..

 

Anyway nice rant, I'm not really much of a Exile fan, mostly cause I've never really delved into her...well that and I'm more a Non-Force User kinda guy, there needs to be more of them.

 

But ah, nice.

Edited October 21, 2014 by Wolfninjajedi

[Darth_Wicked]

My two cents:

 

There's a moment, shortly after Revan is released, where the Exile and Revan acknowledge one another as equals, while pointing out they became stronger and closer as a result.

 

I always enjoyed that moment, and interpreted as a nod of sorts to both games, as well as Drew respectfully bowing to Obsidian for the great work they had done with the Exile and even Revan's backstory.

 

I thought of this many times myself however:

Inevitably, Meetra would be killed by the Emperor, but her death wouldn’t have been glossed over and unceremonious. She would have sacrificed herself to save a friend, which is a far more worthy death than what she was actually given.

And find it odd that Drew opted to have T3 sacrifice himself like that, instead of the Exile.

 

I have come to accept that Revan's rebirth, over the years, is usually preceded by a treason of sorts but even so, it doesn't excuse the fact Drew went into auto-pilot around the time Scourge and Meetra planned to invade Nyriss' estate.

 

Still a fun read but I would have handled the Exile differently as well, even though I still think she had to die by the end of the novel; character had come full circle by that point.

[karadron]

My two cents:

 

I thought of this many times myself however:

And find it odd that Drew opted to have T3 sacrifice himself like that, instead of the Exile.

 

I have come to accept that Revan's rebirth, over the years, is usually preceded by a treason of sorts but even so, it doesn't excuse the fact Drew went into auto-pilot around the time Scourge and Meetra planned to invade Nyriss' estate.

 

Still a fun read but I would have handled the Exile differently as well, even though I still think she had to die by the end of the novel; character had come full circle by that point.

 

 

 

The issue falls with who would Scourge kill to prove his loyalty to the Emperor after he has his vision. There's only two options T3 and Meetra. Which would have a bigger impact on readers? Obvious choice is obvious. Then to eliminate the droid have him get disintegrated by lightning.

 

 

Of course some writing issues could also boil down to how much time was left before he needed to finish, but Scourge killing Meetra was the only logical conclusion for Scourge's character arc.

[Darth_Wicked]

The issue falls with who would Scourge kill to prove his loyalty to the Emperor after he has his vision. There's only two options T3 and Meetra. Which would have a bigger impact on readers? Obvious choice is obvious. Then to eliminate the droid have him get disintegrated by lightning.

 

T3 had already been destroyed by the time Scourge had his vision.

 

Of course some writing issues could also boil down to how much time was left before he needed to finish, but Scourge killing Meetra was the only logical conclusion for Scourge's character arc.

 

While Revan was recuperating and the Exile was sacrificing herself to save him, Scourge could have interceded then in the Emperor's behalf.

 

An exchange between the two could have even taken place, while the Emperor was busy with the Exile. As it is, it was fairly anti-climatic.

[Aurbere]

Eh, wouldn't be the first nor last time a character has been cheapened or thrown to the side or completely turned 180 in regards to power and everything. There are quite a few inconsistencies with different characters and it's just.....so bad. Same with some stories as a whole really..

 

Anyway nice rant, I'm not really much of a Exile fan, mostly cause I've never really delved into her...well that and I'm more a Non-Force User kinda guy, there needs to be more of them.

 

But ah, nice.

 

Yeah, I can agree with that, but this just felt so wrong. It felt like Drew really wanted to put Revan above the Exile, and it just came off as tasteless and desperate.

[Aurbere]

Still a fun read but I would have handled the Exile differently as well, even though I still think she had to die by the end of the novel; character had come full circle by that point.

 

Oh, I fully understand that the Exile wasn't making it out of there alive. It isn't the fact that she died that I have issue with, but the way she died. What I posted above, and the character as a whole, I would have written differently.

[karadron]

Oh, I fully understand that the Exile wasn't making it out of there alive. It isn't the fact that she died that I have issue with, but the way she died. What I posted above, and the character as a whole, I would have written differently.

 

I think that's just how people perceive characters. My Surik would be completely different from both yours and Drew's. It also didn't help that certain rails would already have been put in affect by the development of TOR. Add to that the titular character is his character.

[Aurbere]

I think that's just how people perceive characters. My Surik would be completely different from both yours and Drew's. It also didn't help that certain rails would already have been put in affect by the development of TOR. Add to that the titular character is his character.

 

Well, I'll address those rails if I ever make my rant about the novel as a whole.

[Selenial]

I disagree that it was the only logical conclusion to Scourge's story, it was lazy writing. A much better ending would have been that Vitiate discovered what Scourge knew, and made him immortal to watch him suffer. Put scourge under his mind domination and watch himself help destroy the galaxy... That's the ultimate torture and some really cool writing, not that "STABBOR" ****.

 

Hell, it doesnt even make sense. Vitiate killed an entire Dark Council because 4-5 of them were wanting to revolt, he doesn't take chances and wouldn't have kept Scourge alive.

[Aurbere]

I disagree that it was the only logical conclusion to Scourge's story, it was lazy writing. A much better ending would have been that Vitiate discovered what Scourge knew, and made him immortal to watch him suffer. Put scourge under his mind domination and watch himself help destroy the galaxy... That's the ultimate torture and some really cool writing, not that "STABBOR" ****.

 

Hell, it doesnt even make sense. Vitiate killed an entire Dark Council because 4-5 of them were wanting to revolt, he doesn't take chances and wouldn't have kept Scourge alive.

 

That would have been better. Honestly, I find it hard to believe that Vitiate would let Scourge survive the way he did. He mind controlled Revan, HOT, and others, but he leaves Scourge be?

[karadron]

That would have been better. Honestly, I find it hard to believe that Vitiate would let Scourge survive the way he did. He mind controlled Revan, HOT, and others, but he leaves Scourge be?

 

Blame the game for that. He had limits he had to work with. I mean let's face it the only reason the book was written was because of TOR.

[Aurbere]

Blame the game for that. He had limits he had to work with. I mean let's face it the only reason the book was written was because of TOR.

 

Something else I plan to address in a future rant.

[Beniboybling]

I agree, that one showdown totally screws with the power scaling between characters of that era and forces us (as we already have) to come up with theories to accommodate for what is a big fat logical inconsistency.

 

I also agree with Selenial, the Sith Emperor basically falling for Scourge's deception (despite his incredible mental powers) really didn't do much for the omnipotent Emperor image the Revan novel and TOR has established.

 

And to add to Aurbere's rant, I think BioWare are now mishandling Revan with this constant revival business.

[karadron]

I agree, that one showdown totally screws with the power scaling between characters of that era and forces us (as we already have) to come up with theories to accommodate for what is a big fat logical inconsistency.

 

I also agree with Selenial, the Sith Emperor basically falling for Scourge's deception (despite his incredible mental powers) really didn't do much for the omnipotent Emperor image the Revan novel and TOR has established.

 

And to add to Aurbere's rant, I think BioWare are now mishandling Revan with this constant revival business.

 

On that last point I totally agree.

[Darth_Wicked]

On that last point I totally agree.

 

Let's see how it goes first.

 

EDIT:

 

His role in the expansion I mean.

Edited October 21, 2014 by Darth_Wicked

[Selenial]

Let's see how it goes first.

 

EDIT:

 

His role in the expansion I mean.

 

Trust me, it's bad...

[Darth_Wicked]

Trust me, it's bad...

 

Assuming you are coming from where I think you are coming, you are the second person in three days telling me that. Ohhhhh well...

[Aurbere]

I agree, that one showdown totally screws with the power scaling between characters of that era and forces us (as we already have) to come up with theories to accommodate for what is a big fat logical inconsistency.

 

I also agree with Selenial, the Sith Emperor basically falling for Scourge's deception (despite his incredible mental powers) really didn't do much for the omnipotent Emperor image the Revan novel and TOR has established.

 

And to add to Aurbere's rant, I think BioWare are now mishandling Revan with this constant revival business.

 

What's unfortunate is that all we have are theories. This could have easily been resolved with one line. All Drew needed to do was add "She couldn't beat Nyriss, not with the oppressive darkness of this planet supplanting her connection to the Force." and this problem would have been resolved immediately. But because he didn't we are left with theories.

 

To be honest, it is incredibly inconsistent with what he does in other sources. He instantly mind controls Revan and Malak, takes control of the Jedi Strike Team in Jedi Knight Act II, etc. But he doesn't mind control Scourge? He doesn't mind control the guy who appears to have betrayed him, but he... promotes him? I get the whole keep your enemies close thing, but really? /facepalm

 

And that last sentence is something I'm going to address in a future thread. Long story short, can't we just kill this guy already?

[Aurbere]

Trust me, it's bad...

 

So I've heard...

 

/facepalm

Edited October 21, 2014 by Aurbere

[Darth_Wicked]

And that last sentence is something I'm going to address in a future thread. Long story short, can't we just kill this guy already?

 

Truth be told, there's always the possibility that this isn't Revan but rather an impostor, than the real Revan died at the end of the Foundry, which is why he chose to utter the same words Malak did...

 

He realized his end was there.

 

I rather doubt it truth be told but then again, assuming the dude is an impostor, I refuse to believe someone, somewhere locked up Revan. AGAIN!

[Selenial]

Assuming you are coming from where I think you are coming, you are the second person in three days telling me that. Ohhhhh well...

 

Well, I kind of like the essence behind it but it was Executed horribly.... Oh well.

[Darth_Wicked]

Well, I kind of like the essence behind it but it was Executed horribly.... Oh well.

 

Are you playing with words by any chance?

[Aurbere]

Truth be told, there's always the possibility that this isn't Revan but rather an impostor, than the real Revan died at the end of the Foundry, which is why he chose to utter the same words Malak did...

 

He realized his end was there.

 

I rather doubt it truth be told but then again, assuming the dude is an impostor, I refuse to believe someone, somewhere locked up Revan. AGAIN!

 

Well, it would have been better if he died there, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

 

Honestly, he should have died in the Revan novel, but more on that later.

[DarthDymond]

I think the Revan novel as a whole suffered for having to play 'fill in the blank' way too much within the confines set by KotOR II and TOR, but as was said, that's a rant for another thread.

 

With respect to Meetra Surik, I was less bothered by the different power levels displayed between Surik -> Nyriss -> Revan -> Emperor (although there was some DBZ-level stuff going on there, to be sure) then I was about how they took her character and made her completely defined by her relationship with Revan.

 

It's perfectly summed up by Scourge's companion dialogue in TOR: "Even with all she had done, she never trusted herself. With Revan, she was his student again."

 

Now, in general, having a character with those attributes wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing, but they do not map very well onto the Exile at all.

 

She was in some ways the Luke Skywalker of her time - a (near) lone survivor left with the responsibility of rebuilding the Jedi Order after it had been decimated by the Sith. And I think more importantly, she starts KotOR II as a veteran (a commander even) who was recovering from a trauma instead of being the much more standard 'plucky young hero comes of age/into their own' player character archetype.

 

Even though Revan had been her commander/master, those aspects of her character (which were pretty darn major aspects) do not really lend themselves to her being portrayed as "his student again" unless her sole purpose as a character is to prop up Revan in the narrative.

 

In the end I feel like that's all she does - in the narrative she's reduced to a lens through which to view Revan or a plot device to move his story forward, rather than a fully-realized character in her own right. Even in a book that is called "Revan", that sort of treatment of the other 'main' characters opens up Revan to some fairly legitimate criticisms of being a Mary Sue/Marty Stu in the truest sense of the term, even more than any Super Saiyan Jedi powers he may show off.

 

I would not have minded her death at all, if she had been a more fully-realized character through the rest of the book - but instead it ended up being one more example of her only serving the plot purpose of pushing forward Revan's story (again, I certainly accept there's going to be some degree of that in a book called "Revan" but the final product took it too far).

Edited October 21, 2014 by DarthDymond