Whats better for a merc DPS pyro or arsenal

[ryryfriefriend]

I mostly do PvE but do some PvP and i really dont care if its DoT (Damage over time) or burst damage but i prefer killing enemies quickly without loosing too much health. I also dont know what DoT damage is like so if someone could explain the mechanics to me that would be nice. Please post your opinions.

 

Thank you in advance:D.

[LtBombshell]

If you mostly do PvP, then it's entirely up to you.

 

Arsenal has a brain-dead easy rotation, and because you're not going to be getting focused/interrupted, it deals a crap ton of damage.

 

I have never played Pyro, so I can't tell you much about that. I think I've read that in terms of raiding, Arsenal is a little bit better DPS than Pyro.

 

Your call.

[cs_zoltan]

To answer your question, neither...or both.

In both PVE and PVP you can/should use both specs, because they are both good in their own way.

 

DoT damage is damage over time, which means that the tooltip damage will be dealt over 18second (usually dot duration is 18, but some dots last less or more). Only thing you have to watch out for is never clip your dot, that means don't refresh it before it runs out because that's a dps loss.

[Darth__Reaver]

PVE=Arsenal

PVP=pyro

 

However depending on the skill of the players you can and should use arsenal for pvp BUT pyro is way more mobile and rails shot hurts but so does heat seekers... Idk I love both specs.

[thoorax]

PVE=Arsenal

PVP=pyro .

 

That is a bit to simplistic, I do not pvp so much so I wont question that however only arsenal for PVE is not necessarily correct, at least not without some elaboration. I do agree that mostly I find myself going for arsenal with the latest top tier operations but it is far from every situation.

 

Strictly damage wise Pyro is parsing higher. This superiority is very dependant on having an armor debuff so that would be my first point to consider, do you have juggs in your team? a sniper? another merc using arsenal? If not I would say generally you will help the team out more with providing an armor debuff. Personally I still do more damage in pyro even without armor debuff but it is not by much and providing it for the team can make them preform better. What spec are you most comfortable with and do most damage with? This is of course something hard to answer right away and other than playing content the only way to know is by trying out the specs on a dummy. My point with this is your skill in a spec is far more important than what theoreticly is possible, I stayed with arsenal for weeks before I had trained enough with pyro to beat arsenal and when much is going on I still revert to it.

 

Generally arsenal is the spec with higher survivability, you will take less damage with the combination of absorbtion shield, lowered cd on energy shield and the stacks of power barrier. It also carries alot more upfront damage and, with luck, insane bursts of damage. For dailies, flashpoints and general use this is the spec I am specced into.

 

Pyro is technically a dot spec, it has abilities that over time deals damage, however it is not truely a dot spec in the sense that most of the damage does not actually come from the dots. Generally it just needs a dot inorder to do the skeleton of the rotation, the dots provide the extra damage but far from the majority. Of the two specs this one is the harder and more importantly to really do superior damage it needs a static rotation with little room to spare for aoe or other interruptions. This limitation is why mostly arsenal becomes the better choice and where the diffrence in damage slowly diminishes.

 

I just feel I also must adress one thing ppl often say with arsenal, how it is dead easy. It is not complex but to truely master it and really get all you can from it it takes almost as much consideration as pyro with a static rotation. Easy to deal average damage with but not easy to master.

 

Ideally you should be fine with respeccing and determine each fight on its own since both specs have their strengths but if that is not possible I guess indeed previous posters were correct on arsenal for most PVE. Also unless you are really attempting the hardest content available it does not make that much differance which you choose so remember to have fun.

Those are my opinions and some general information, hope it helped you somewhat.

[Mallorea]

personally, I play gunnery (arsenal) on my commando for pvp, because burst>sustained in pvp. Arsenal has a 4 gcd burst, where all of the abilities are heavy hitting (railshot with 5 stacks, heatseeker missiles with heat signature on the target, unload) while pyro has a 4 GCD burst, but only two of the abilities can really be called "burst" (railshot and thermal detonator). plus, arsenal gets a lot of really neat buffs, like boosted jet boosters, increased hydraulic overrides duration, faster shield, and increased electronet damage.

 

Realistically though, both are equally viable, play what you want to play.

[Kaos_KidSWTOR]

I prefer Arsenal/Gunnery for both PvE and PvP because of the brain-dead easy rotation of Power Surge > Tracer Missile x3 > Heatseeker Missiles > Rail Shot > Unload > Repeat. you can throw in Fusion Missile for fun, same with Electro Net. and pretty high burst DPS.

[cs_zoltan]

People like to throw around that Arsenal has braindead rotation, but fail to realise that since the recent RNG removal from specs EVERYTHING is as easy or even easier than Arsenal.

[DariusCalera]

People like to throw around that Arsenal has braindead rotation, but fail to realise that since the recent RNG removal from specs EVERYTHING is as easy or even easier than Arsenal.

 

They also fail to realize that what makes playing a merc or commando difficult is not the rotation. It's the lack of DCs on par with other classes and the ease at which they are so easily shut down.

 

Yes, they can do amazing damage if left alone, but that goes for any class.

 

Learning how to shoot, move, LOS, positioning, and a myriad of other class nuances that are required to get damage out is what makes it difficult to master.

[cs_zoltan]

They also fail to realize that what makes playing a merc or commando difficult is not the rotation. It's the lack of DCs on par with other classes and the ease at which they are so easily shut down.

 

Yes, they can do amazing damage if left alone, but that goes for any class.

 

Learning how to shoot, move, LOS, positioning, and a myriad of other class nuances that are required to get damage out is what makes it difficult to master.

 

Spot on.

[ryryfriefriend]

Thanks for commenting and telling me what you know. I currently have a lvl44 arsenal spec merc and a new lvl29 pyro spec merc and, due to 12x xp boost, i dont know about pvp or flashpoint pyro dps but from what i can tell i had slightly better survivability with arsenal but with pyro annoying knock backs,stuns and all interupt abilities were not as annoying as they were with arsenal.

 

I found casting incidenary (excuse my spelling:o) missle on each enemy then using my usual abilities helped kill mobs faster and especially with the AoE groups and weaker enemies. I know im not high enough level on my pyro merc to say this but i think i benefited slightly more from arsenal when it came to passive abilities. Also, i heard that for highest possible dps in ops you have to go pyro for a merc (he was talking raw numbers). Thank you for commenting and please correct any incorrect information.

[ryryfriefriend]

They also fail to realize that what makes playing a merc or commando difficult is not the rotation. It's the lack of DCs on par with other classes and the ease at which they are so easily shut down.

 

Yes, they can do amazing damage if left alone, but that goes for any class.

 

Learning how to shoot, move, LOS, positioning, and a myriad of other class nuances that are required to get damage out is what makes it difficult to master.

I agree. I think that the fact that troopers and bounty hunters have the hardest to control energy mechanics stinks too:confused:.

[nogoodtomedead]

Both specs have their merits, but I personally use Arsenal. I feel that Arsenal is going to put out more damage then pyro more quickly and on a regular bases. Understanding each warzone map is very important as well; knowing the best spots to begin opening up on a target. Picking your fights and choosing your targets play a large part of being successful as a arsenal merc. Yes, fairly simple rotation, but knowing when to pop your defensive cooldowns can mean life or death in pvp.

Presently, as it stands, Mercs/commandos struggle greatly in terms of pvp because other classes have on par dmg with better defensive cooldowns. Hopefully, this will change for the better in 3.0. Musco already hinted that mercs/commandos are going to get a discipline skill that will allow us to use one of our abilities while moving.

[ryryfriefriend]

Sometimes, when it comes to warzones, I dont really know what I should be doing, especially the one with the pylons( called hypergate something right?). But I mostly do PvE anyway. I pre-ordered SoR so until lvl55 my spec doesnt really matter and for now, im gonna stick with pyro but when I reach lvl55 im switching to arsenal. Im noticing that when it comes to lvl40 and up arsenal was giving me the dps i needed.

 

Thanks for the feedback and if you have an opinion reply.

[Dropfall]

Best DPS; hands down Pyro.

 

Most think Pyro is a DoT spec; it's not, the DoT dmg is filler. Pyro is the 'every 6s railshot to the face spec'. Just look at the dmg percentage done on Dulfy DPS guide. My own in combat parses (can't upload due to Torparse being down) have similar looking figures.

 

Arsenal mercs often cry out that they can get a HSM above 10K, to which I say, 'so what', I get 10K RS hits all the time and I don't suffer a 15s wait for the ability to come off cd. Again look at the link and look at the individual DPS for each abilitiy. Pyro's main abilities blow Arsenal out of the water. This transfers into actual combat.

 

Now if you know how to do the 6's rotations (ex: RS, TD, FPS, PS) decently, you'll be good enough for target switching and the heat management in combat will be a non-issue.

 

Finally the Armour Debuff that you won't have, its not a massive issue. The damage output from pyro without the debuff still pips arsenal with it. Most of the specs without an armour debuff as part of their advanced class don't actually need one present on their target.

 

I use to play Arsenal but now I can't stand it, so I'm somewhat biased. Listen to me/don't listen to me.

Edited October 24, 2014 by Dropfall

[Gyronamics]

The least you can do is to be good at one out of three specs

 

The best you can do is to be good at all of them.

 

In casual play it's not relevant, in competitive playing it allows you to choose the best spec for the situation.

[DariusCalera]

Best DPS; hands down Pyro.

 

Most think Pyro is a DoT spec; it's not, the DoT dmg is filler. Pyro is the 'every 6s railshot to the face spec'. Just look at the dmg percentage done on Dulfy DPS guide. My own in combat parses (can't upload due to Torparse being down) have similar looking figures.

 

Arsenal mercs often cry out that they can get a HS above 10K, to which I say, 'so what', I get 10K RS hits all the time and I don't suffer a 15s wait for the ability to come off cd. Again look at the link and look at the individual DPS for each abilitiy. Pyro's main abilities blow Arsenal out of the water. This transfers into actual combat.

 

Now if you know how to do the 6's rotations (ex: RS, TD, FPS, PS) decently, you'll be good enough for target switching and the heat management in combat will be a non-issue.

 

Finally the Armour Debuff that you won't have, its not a massive issue. The damage output from pyro without the debuff still pips arsenal with it. Most of the specs without an armour debuff as part of their advanced class don't actually need one present on their target.

 

I use to play Arsenal but now I can't stand it, so I'm somewhat biased. Listen to me/don't listen to me.

 

Do I get 10K RS on arsenal, sometimes, but it's fine that I don't because I get 12K or higher HSMs.

 

As for the armor debuff, the parses showing Pyro as being the better DPS have been with a debuff on the target provided by one of the other classes.

 

These parses are provided off of boss OP target dummies, or the bosses themselves, and it is assumed that since you would have that debuff in an OP, it will be put on the training dummies as well.

[Dropfall]

Do I get 10K RS on arsenal, sometimes, but it's fine that I don't because I get 12K or higher HSMs.

My point was you get more RS's crits more often whilst in pyro than you get HSM crits in Arsenal, for two reasons, 1) HSM has a 15s cd, whilst pyro's RS is basically 6s, 2) difference in crit values.

 

As for the armor debuff, the parses showing Pyro as being the better DPS have been with a debuff on the target provided by one of the other classes.

 

These parses are provided off of boss OP target dummies, or the bosses themselves, and it is assumed that since you would have that debuff in an OP, it will be put on the training dummies as well.

I'm quite sure you can't tell from a combat parse whether or not the target has the armour debuff. One would assume that most debuff the Op dummy, but you don't need to, the difference is not a 20% dmg reduction as many would assume. Even this lesser Pyro dmg parse, still beats the very best dmg out put from Arsenal.

Edited October 23, 2014 by Dropfall

[Freaky_Barber]

People like to throw around that Arsenal has braindead rotation, but fail to realise that since the recent RNG removal from specs EVERYTHING is as easy or even easier than Arsenal.

 

Noob roll in, what RNG and DC means?

[ghoul_drool]

Noob roll in, what RNG and DC means?

 

RNG = random number generator. Some trees have abilities that have a 30 or 50 % chance to trigger.

 

DC = defensive cooldowns

[DariusCalera]

My point was you get more RS's crits more often whilst in pyro than you get HSM crits in Arsenal, for two reasons, 1) HSM has a 15s cd, whilst pyro's RS is basically 6s, 2) difference in crit values.

 

You actually compared RS for both specs and not RS to HSMs. You are also comparing the center ability for one (pyro RS) vs a non centralized ability for arsenal.

 

So yes, you are going to get more crits with a pyro RS simply because most of its abilities tie in to giving you those frequent RS.

 

It would be if I compared arsenal unload to pyro unload, the arsenal is going to hit harder and more often simply because it, unload, is one of the core abilities of the spec.

 

If there are arsenal players actually crying about not getting 10K RS crits then they need to L2P and understand that while nice, RS is not what the spec is built around.

 

I'm quite sure you can't tell from a combat parse whether or not the target has the armour debuff. One would assume that most debuff the Op dummy, but you don't need to, the difference is not a 20% dmg reduction as many would assume. Even this lesser Pyro dmg parse, still beats the very best dmg out put from Arsenal.

 

It's not a 20% difference, no, but remove that debuff from pyro and their parses fall to being within in range of arsenal with RNG being the deciding factor. Especially since the parse for merc on that thread you linked is not updated to 2.7.

[Dropfall]

You actually compared RS for both specs and not RS to HSMs. You are also comparing the center ability for one (pyro RS) vs a non centralized ability for arsenal.

 

So yes, you are going to get more crits with a pyro RS simply because most of its abilities tie in to giving you those frequent RS.

 

It would be if I compared arsenal unload to pyro unload, the arsenal is going to hit harder and more often simply because it, unload, is one of the core abilities of the spec.

 

If there are arsenal players actually crying about not getting 10K RS crits then they need to L2P and understand that while nice, RS is not what the spec is built around.

Are you actually trying to tell me what I meant? Lol.

I wrote HS in the original post, its the abbreviation I use for Heat Seeker Missile, you even quoted me with HS in it. To clear it up in my original post and subsequent ones, I've added the M just for you. The point was people keep going 'we've got HSM it does this much, go use Arsenal its better', which is a ludicrous statement.

 

Comparable: Pyro has PS and RS as primary. Which would equate '% of total dmg to % of total dmg' as UL and TM in Arsenal respectively, give or take 1-2% dependent on usage and fight. TD would equate to HSM, and IM would equate to RS in arsenal for % of total dmg.

That said in the same time frame (6s): Arsenal player stands still fires TM in about 1.5s, fires Unload standing around for nearly 3s as it casts, the fires another 1.5s TM; Pyro player you can fire off PS in 1.5s, move quickly whilst hitting a secondary ability (TD, IM, Rapid etc), stand still fire off another PS in 1.5s, then move again whilst firing RS. - Arsenal's only possibility to make up for lack of mobility is a slight reduction in Power Surge, and its 1 additional usage; but once its used, back to immobility.

 

As for the two secondary abilities both of Arsenals have 15s cds. Of the secondary abilities in Pyro only TD has a cd. And at the end of it all Pyro still has Unload it can use if required; Arsenal just has more TracerSpam™. Pyro has more mobility, Arsenal does not. A tiny buff to armour penetration does not make Arsenal the best.

 

It's not a 20% difference, no, but remove that debuff from pyro and their parses fall to being within in range of arsenal with RNG being the deciding factor. Especially since the parse for merc on that thread you linked is not updated to 2.7.

No damage related changes have been made to Arsenal since 2.7, so that parse can still apply as an example. Like I said in the first post, I can't show you combat parses from Torparse at the moment, the site is down.

Now without the debuff if Pyro falls within range of Arsenal, but not under Arsenal, Pyro must be the better dps...

Edited October 24, 2014 by Dropfall

[DariusCalera]

No damage related changes have been made to Arsenal since 2.7, so that parse can still apply as an example. Like I said in the first post, I can't show you combat parses from Torparse at the moment, the site is down.

Now without the debuff if Pyro falls within range of Arsenal, but not under Arsenal, Pyro must be the better dps...

 

That parse was made before 2.7 which is why it needs to be updated to take into account the 100% proc that Barrage now has from Tracer Missile.

 

If without the debuff each spec falls within RNG range of each other then pyro is not superior. They are relatively equal with the skill of the player and luck being the deciding factor.

[Sikifetta]

On Shadowlands not many Pyros running around in pvp..... if you did see one they switched to Arsenal.

Pretty consistent 500k to 1 million damage per pvp match with people who know how to play. Learn the rotation, manage heat and keep on the move. Thing about dots can be cleansed fast as for pyro have to maintain the flames at all times.

Arsenal is just hard hitting mow down time.

[Karlbadmanners]

How are there still people who think Arsenal is the preferred PvE spec overall??? With the exception of a few bosses with low up times(corrupter/operator/draxus/etc) Pyro is far superior sustained dps. Arsenal fanboys and slacker raiders(some of whom i am friends with lol) who can't be bothered to learn pyros "intermediate" difficulty rotation because they can't handle their heat seem to be the only people I run into still using Arsenal as their main PvE universal spec. Pyro is imo very much a DoT spec, having burst damage from an ability, even if said ability's dmg is a large % of your dmg pie. Vengeance is most certainly a DoT spec despite having large dmg bursts from Ravage. If a talent tree gives you extra DoT's and gives you bonuses based on them/etc/etc/etc then it's a DoT spec, im not sure what further defining features it would need to be considered so if it were not already. Edited November 1, 2014 by Karlbadmanners