The Gamers of Today... Are the same as the Gamers of Yesterday folks.

[ZionHalcyon]

People just got along better because there were fewer people to argue with.

 

 

Not to mention there are pockets of niceness - the DDO forums for instance are actually pretty mature and awesome, and for all the WHINING about the SWTOR forums, it really is tame here compared to the SWG forums that came before it, known as one of the biggest cesspools of all time in MMO-verse, even bigger than WoW and the like.

 

The thing is, people are just people. Some places are better, some are worse, and for all its nonsense, this place on the grand scale of things isn't too bad. In fact, as it is now isn't even the worst its been as some of the "we attack everyone who dares criticize BioWare" brigade have either moved on to other games (funny that, huh?) or softened their stance for the most part.

 

In the end, some people just want to be elitist, want to feel like things were better when they walked uphill both ways naked to school - "And we liked it that way!" - even though the games today support far more than their narrow views of playstyle and make more of an effort to cater to a far broader audience than those games of yore ever did.

 

So don't indulge people who haven't been able to move on with the times - pity them, as some relic of the past, and then move on yourself, and enjoy what gaming today has to offer.

 

Don't worry though - one day, games will evolve yet again, and you can be the cranky fart telling people how much better the SWTOR forums were compared to their "crappy MMO."..

[KTap]

Is there a tl;dr version?

[docbenwayddo]

People just got along better because there were fewer people to argue with.

 

 

Not to mention there are pockets of niceness - the DDO forums for instance are actually pretty mature and awesome, ...

 

There are fansite names in the autocensor of the DDO forums and hinted mention of one site will earn you a forum ban. Draconian moderation with folks posting as though walking on eggshells makes for minimal debate.

 

Caveat: I've not frequented the DDO forums since Turbine crossed the incredibly high line of just how much crap I'd put up with to play a D&D MMO. I should thank them, since I downloaded and have been enjoying SWTOR since they chased me away.

Edited October 17, 2014 by docbenwayddo

[Elly_Dawn]

the difference is that the people you are playing with are now miles away, when before if they were rude they'd get smacked because they were sitting on the sofa next to you in arms reach... now there is no perceived consequence for bad behavior... basically the "Internet F-Wad Theory" in effect... Edited October 17, 2014 by Elly_Dawn

[Mixcoatl]

People just got along better because there were fewer people to argue with.

 

Yup. As much as I loved the City of Heroes forums back in the day, there were the negative posters that took over the forums for periods of time. I mean, one of the posters there even went so overboard that one of the Devs stopped posting on the forums...forever.

 

I think any time Jack Emmert(when he was the lead Dev) made a post on those forums there was at least 5-10 posters there to rip him apart no matter what he said.

 

That may be one of the issues now. Seems no matter what MMO I've played in the last 5 years, the dev team posts so little on the forums that everyone turns on each other instead of unloading on the development team.

[ZionHalcyon]

There are fansite names in the autocensor of the DDO forums and hinted mention of one site will earn you a forum ban. Draconian moderation with folks posting as though walking on eggshells makes for minimal debate.

 

Caveat: I've not frequented the DDO forums since Turbine crossed the incredibly high line of just how much crap I'd put up with to play a D&D MMO. I should thank them, since I downloaded and have been enjoying SWTOR since they chased me away.

 

Maybe that's why its so civil? The place is moderated properly and the people there have low tolerance for trolls and will as a community shout them down.

 

Funny that though huh? That there would be people lamenting not being able to act in a poor manner on a forum while criticizing other forums for acting in a poor manner?

 

DDO still is one of the best forum communities I've seen, pre launch SWG being the best (and ironically, post launch SWG being the bar none worst).

[docbenwayddo]

Maybe that's why its so civil? The place is moderated properly and the people there have low tolerance for trolls and will as a community shout them down.....

 

That's the thing, it's not moderated properly, it's moderated in a biased and heavy-handed way. Two people, making the same post about the same topic in the same tone will receive different moderation, if any at all, based on Jerry's relationship to/with them. The disliked get forum bans, the new or those he's ambivalent toward get a warning and the friends get away scott-free.

 

I have not posted there since April '13, but post history back to Sept '09 with a single expired 0 point warning and a rep bar, under the old system when negative rep was still a thing, of many of green boxes and the Trustworthy title. I was never hit with his heavy hand, because I lined my eggshells to walk on well outside his patrol path. I did know several in game that would not touch the forums due to toxic moderation.

YMMV

[ZionHalcyon]

That's the thing, it's not moderated properly, it's moderated in a biased and heavy-handed way. Two people, making the same post about the same topic in the same tone will receive different moderation, if any at all, based on Jerry's relationship to/with them. The disliked get forum bans, the new or those he's ambivalent toward get a warning and the friends get away scott-free.

 

I have not posted there since April '13, but post history back to Sept '09 with a single expired 0 point warning and a rep bar, under the old system when negative rep was still a thing, of many of green boxes and the Trustworthy title. I was never hit with his heavy hand, because I lined my eggshells to walk on well outside his patrol path. I did know several in game that would not touch the forums due to toxic moderation.

YMMV

 

Sorry, no sympathy. I was there a while and it was fine by me.

[PiperPilot]

Maybe that's why its so civil? The place is moderated properly and the people there have low tolerance for trolls and will as a community shout them down.

Agreed completely.

If the company has rules, those rules need to be enforced. The forums need to be moderated. It is part of the ToU/EULA into which WE AGREE as users! It is a contract. Period.

 

But the problem goes beyond just forums (see general chat in game).

And honestly, SWTOR has one of the better communities out there... though it's not immune. But it doesn't change the fact of the quoted portion above. More GMs and mods have to learn how to enforce the rules of the company under which they are employed.

[postalrenegade]

the difference is that the people you are playing with are now miles away, when before if they were rude they'd get smacked because they were sitting on the sofa next to you in arms reach... now there is no perceived consequence for bad behavior... basically the "Internet F-Wad Theory" in effect...

 

I agree with this whole hearted. I hardly even pay attention to "General" chat anymore or any chat in any MMO for the sake of not seeing bunch of bleepidy bleeps trolling each other. Granted it isnt happening constantly depending on how many people are in your instance and what planet you are on etc. Tonight i was the victim of being trolled just because i accidently attacked the same target as another player, This player went ape crap on me and when i stood up for myself in general chat all of a sudden here come 3 or 4 other players trolling me. Smh... I know this comes with the territory with any MMO game but that's why there is usually an option to turn chat off completely if your playing solo at the time. So thats what i stick with from now on unless i am in a group with friends.

[docbenwayddo]

Sorry, no sympathy. I was there a while and it was fine by me.

 

Not sure why I'd be looking for any, I got away from the horrid DDO forums.

[Deewe]

DDO still is one of the best forum communities I've seen, pre launch SWG being the best (and ironically, post launch SWG being the bar none worst).

Been soo long that I played DDO... still have fond memories about the community there and how mostly everyone was nice.

 

But then SWG, geez that was pretty intense fighting on the forums. I think the forum PvP was for some the part they loved the most.

[Kalfear]

Well have the OP on ignore so didnt see his post but did see someone quote him saying

Quote: Originally Posted by ZionHalcyon View Post

People just got along better because there were fewer people to argue with.

 

And while yes there was less people then modern days

There was still more then enough that simple size was not the deterrent OP tries to claim.

 

In the world of MMORPGs back then there was actual in game consequences for bad behavior. Not to mention society in general was far less accepting of bad behavior.

 

Gamers today are not even remotely the same as gamers in the pre WOW era (WOW is where the big change in mindset happened. Thats not anti WOW btw, thats just the god honest truth)

 

Here is some actual events to hilite what I mean.

 

Example #1

 

In Ultima Online there was a bug/exploit where as you could not move over or past a bag of flour. So one day some "people" decided they would put those bags to a very bad use. They grouped with a young girl (who told them she was as much, turns out she was 8-10 years old), led her to a dungeon and trapped her by putting bags of flour down so she couldnt run away and couldnt pick all up as didnt have the strength to carry.

 

They then, if the NATIONAL MEDIA ATTENTION THAT FOLLOWED REGARDING THIS is to be believed, cyber raped her. Her father heard her crying and came to computer room to see screen filled with vulgar messages and suggested conduct.

 

Now a days, as we see in thread after thread after thread we would see people say things like "grow a thicker skin" or "just ignore the trolls".

 

Back then NO ONE thought to put the blame or responsibility on the child. NATIONAL MEDIA covered the story in North America. The players were banned by Origin almost immediately and there was talk of charges being laid against those 2 teen agers for their actions.

 

Accepted in modern times as simply a Troll and sadly almost common place behavior/subject on fleet now a days by gamers.

Back then it was a very rare instance that was met with fast and severe repercussions.

 

Id say there is a HUGE difference between the old and new gamers on that issue.

 

Example #2

Dark Age of Camelot (but same holds true to EQ, AC, AO, SWG, Lineage, Dark Sun Online, Never Winter Nights, The Realms and a host of other MMORPGs that came before WOW)

 

Players enforced standards on Role Play Servers

 

On the DAoC RP servers there was offical naming rules and players didnt think twice of reporting non RP names to have them changed.

 

Now a day on a RP server Ive lost count how many Revans, Anakins, OBeeOne, Vader, ect I seen despite those names specifically being violations in the Terms of Service.

 

Players on the Old RP servers didnt just accept bad names amongst them.

Gamers today try to make anyone who asks for naming rules be enforced on RP servers as the problem, rather then the name breaking the rules.

HUGE mentality difference

 

Player conduct on RP servers was enforced by the player population so if you had some idiot ninja looting, greifing others, kill stealing, or host of other actions commonly acceptable as normal every day behavior in the modern era gamers. In the older era the player population would spread the problem players name and there would be a intentional exclusion of problem players from joining in to do content.

 

They would not find groups

They would not get rez's

They would be outcast and punished for bad behavior.

 

Bad, anti social, negative behavior in modern times is not only acceptable, its often rewarded by modern gamers.

 

Huge difference in mind set and acceptable behavior paterns between the "yesterday folk" and many of the "gamers of today"

 

Example #3

 

I think the biggest difference between old school gamers and modern gamers is the ability to problem solve and work out issues.

 

Back before WOW the only time you really saw players demanding things of Dev was bug fixes and exploit fixes.

Im hard pressed to even remember a situation where the gamers on whole demanded the games they were playing be dumbed down by the devs.

 

Today you cant click a link with out seeing a modern gamer demanding free this, faster that, easier this, ect ect ect.

 

It just wasnt done in old days.

Players figured things out

Worked with others if they couldnt do so solo

they didnt demand the devs play the game for them like is so common now a days.

 

I have a hard time imagining ANY WOW or after player gleefully taking part in a 4-6 hour dragon raid where you might die 10 times and get no loot but you stayed and worked togather with 100 other players for the experience and fun.

 

I have a hard time imagining any players that came in at WOW or later signing up (and honoring) a schedual on when they could camp a spawn in a MMORPG for a certain drop. Sometimes signing up months in advance and being mature enough to know every one is in the same boat so you dont try to kill steal or jump position.

 

Simply would not happen with the modern crowd.

 

Example #4

 

Back when this genre launched on AOL in 1991 there was a game called Neverwinter Night and in that game you would have RPers interacting with PVPers interacting with PKers interacting with casuals, and every kind of player inbetween.

 

You NEVER saw one play style intentionally belittle or insult another playstyle.

They shared space and time and figured it out it was easier to accept and move on then insult and troll and flame

Course the game charged $20.00 for 20 hours a month and then $2.95/hour after that ($3.95/hour for Canadians) so time was money and it wasnt to be wasted.

 

You will NEVER see that type of acceptance in modern gamers.

Just will never happen beyond a couple folk here and there

These forums alone are filled with PVP vrs RP vrs Casual vrs ... and all of them want their specific style to riegn superior and most important.

Hell most thread are not just about getting what they want for their style, there is a definate overveiw in those threads cheering on the nerfing or changing of other play styles.

 

And thats just tipping the iceberg of the dramatic changes between older gamers and the modern era.

 

ANYONE who seriously thinks 'The Gamers of Today... Are the same as the Gamers of Yesterday" is either trolling for attention or delusional.

 

the two types couldnt be more different and the attitude of gamers has changed dramatically over the years.

 

As I said, WOW was the big changing point (for a number of reasons, both good and bad)

 

But make no mistake, there was a changing point and the older gamers share very little in common with modern gamers beyond the generic love of games.

 

Games have evolved and in some way devolved and so have the gamers with each new generation.

 

Would you say a teen ager in 1970s is the same as a teen ager in 2014? I certainly would not. Only thing they have in common is both teen agers at one time in their life. EVERYTHING after that is completely different and surrounded by completely different influences and society pressures.

 

Gaming is no different.

first time MMORPG gamers in 1991, 1994, 1997, or 1998 are night and day from first time MMORPG gamers in 2014.

Edited October 17, 2014 by Kalfear

[Deewe]

**snip**.

Well good ride but not sure the first paragraph was needed.

 

You reminded me how I usually spent 1 to 2 hours with new comers in SWG to have them get the basics of the game

 

Now speaking of differences between the games and the gamers, getting older and well I don't need that much a second work like it was too often in these games.

 

But you are right that by dumbing down the content and making it too easy it does not promote players to go along well. Interesting enough guild, but the oldest ones aren't really what a guild used to be, especially as now we have people in guilds for the bonuses and the conquest.

 

Well it's another time, we have to adapt.

[mokkh]

Well have the OP on ignore so didnt see his post but did see someone quote him saying

*snip*

 

 

ANYONE who seriously thinks 'The Gamers of Today... Are the same as the Gamers of Yesterday" is either trolling for attention or delusional.

 

the two types couldnt be more different and the attitude of gamers has changed dramatically over the years.

 

*snip*

 

Ditto on the ignore thing and I agree with your post whole-heartedly. I didn't get the MMO bug until I was in my early 20s so I'm a vanilla eq guy ('99). The player attitude then was entirely different than the current crop of gamers. Not that there weren't trolls and dirtbags, but they were outed so quickly that their continued presence was unheard of.

 

I greet every group member with a smile. I don't start spamming "spaaaaaaaaaaaacebaaaaaar" after 3 seconds of the conversation pane not moving (I myself do space through things I've seen by default but enjoy when someone hasn't so I can watch and take part in the dialogue). I detest backbiting in PVP and PVE instances, esp. the types that start in on general after a pvp loss, so much so that I removed the channel across all my characters. When people royally screw something up, I don't start berating them in group chat, I will /tell them advice in (I hope it comes across) a non-threatening manner. If people don't know fights, I explain them. Not only does it improve morale in group, but in the game as a whole because they can now do it for someone else "not in the know."

 

When we start to accept crappiness as commonplace, it becomes a normalized way of interacting.

That is why I think so many people don't have a problem with a lot of the prevalent social downsides to internet gaming and communicating on the internet.

 

 

Conversely, there are some GREAT people in game and on the forums of all ages so I don't think we can call it a complete null set. There are some people on these forums that I would (without ever having met face to face) absolutely love to shoot the breeze with IRL, and share a beer or cookout or what not. So the spirit of community is by no means dead (in my mind anyway), but it's not quite the same on the whole as I remember "back in the day" in-game.

Edited November 7, 2014 by mokkh

[ZionHalcyon]

Well good ride but not sure the first paragraph was needed.

 

You reminded me how I usually spent 1 to 2 hours with new comers in SWG to have them get the basics of the game

 

Now speaking of differences between the games and the gamers, getting older and well I don't need that much a second work like it was too often in these games.

 

But you are right that by dumbing down the content and making it too easy it does not promote players to go along well. Interesting enough guild, but the oldest ones aren't really what a guild used to be, especially as now we have people in guilds for the bonuses and the conquest.

 

Well it's another time, we have to adapt.

 

 

Nice "when I was your age" rant, but hey, he has me on ignore, doesn't he?

 

But hey, in a nutshell, lets go over the one-sided examples:

 

Example 1 - I'm sorry, but no MMO since UO has had the level of control over the environment that UO did - at least not as played, because UO was basically the grand-daddy of MMOs and there weren't other options - it was a test bed, so OF COURSE you aren't going to hear about the same story. is there a link BTW of proof of this? Because there is not a mention online of such an event that I think, if as big a deal as the OP said and if it actually happened, would be discussed SOMEWHERE. Perhaps this is one of those urban legends? I don't doubt the flour portion of it, as I heard all the time of some heinous trolling people in UO would do to each other - which is why same is the same.

 

Example 2 - I admit, this tickles me. Almost sounds exactly like this system I heard about in SWTOR, where a player who is put on ignore can no longer join your group in groupfinder. Now if only players warned each other in gen chat on the fleet when someone ninja loots - oh wait, yes, this happens. Classic "when I was your age!" elitist griping at its fiinest.

 

Example 3 - Being a raider myself, and having been a part of MANY, MANY, MANY groups trying out new content, Example 3 is absolutely baloney. Sure, there is ALWAYS going to be that segment of the population. JUST as there always HAS been. But the groups overall I take part in via raid groups and guilds are NOT people who just want handouts for nothing - we bust our butts to figure out HM and NiM mode raid mechanics, and did so back in the day as well when LI was a thing and you needed to gear up over FPs as well as OPs.

 

Example 4 - I played NWN back in the day. I remember the smaller communities, and the L2P cries and complaining and much of what goes on now back then - just on a smaller scale, but then again MMOs were very new and it was a smaller community.

 

 

Diablo is another good example - a pre-mmo game plagued by hacks, cheats, and it was a game from the same era.

 

 

 

Sorry, but its no wonder this short-sighted, hot-tempered person has me on ignore. He's exactly the type of elitist I was talking about - trying to justify his false beliefs while painting a rosy picture through a lens that isn't exactly the clearest, bordering on making things up out of whole cloth.

[Jimvinny]

Well good ride but not sure the first paragraph was needed.

 

You reminded me how I usually spent 1 to 2 hours with new comers in SWG to have them get the basics of the game

 

Now speaking of differences between the games and the gamers, getting older and well I don't need that much a second work like it was too often in these games.

 

But you are right that by dumbing down the content and making it too easy it does not promote players to go along well. Interesting enough guild, but the oldest ones aren't really what a guild used to be, especially as now we have people in guilds for the bonuses and the conquest.

 

Well it's another time, we have to adapt.

 

I'd say that first paragraph was absolutely needed. If a (clearly) longtime gamer with that kind of experience has OP ignored, there's probably a pretty good reason.

 

Also funny how OP makes it sound like the constant defenders of the game have left, when in reality, its the trolls that left, so the people that enjoy the game aren't forced to vehemently discount the trolls and their trolling.

 

Edit* looks like a few longtime gamers have OP on ignore. Starting to see a pattern here...

Edited October 17, 2014 by Jimvinny

[tdmaha]

Well have the OP on ignore so didnt see his post but did see someone quote him saying

 

And while yes there was less people then modern days

There was still more then enough that simple size was not the deterrent OP tries to claim.

 

In the world of MMORPGs back then there was actual in game consequences for bad behavior. Not to mention society in general was far less accepting of bad behavior.

 

Gamers today are not even remotely the same as gamers in the pre WOW era (WOW is where the big change in mindset happened. Thats not anti WOW btw, thats just the god honest truth)

 

Here is some actual events to hilite what I mean.

 

Example #1

 

In Ultima Online there was a bug/exploit where as you could not move over or past a bag of flour. So one day some "people" decided they would put those bags to a very bad use. They grouped with a young girl (who told them she was as much, turns out she was 8-10 years old), led her to a dungeon and trapped her by putting bags of flour down so she couldnt run away and couldnt pick all up as didnt have the strength to carry.

 

They then, if the NATIONAL MEDIA ATTENTION THAT FOLLOWED REGARDING THIS is to be believed, cyber raped her. Her father heard her crying and came to computer room to see screen filled with vulgar messages and suggested conduct.

 

Now a days, as we see in thread after thread after thread we would see people say things like "grow a thicker skin" or "just ignore the trolls".

 

Back then NO ONE thought to put the blame or responsibility on the child. NATIONAL MEDIA covered the story in North America. The players were banned by Origin almost immediately and there was talk of charges being laid against those 2 teen agers for their actions.

 

Accepted in modern times as simply a Troll and sadly almost common place behavior/subject on fleet now a days by gamers.

Back then it was a very rare instance that was met with fast and severe repercussions.

 

Id say there is a HUGE difference between the old and new gamers on that issue.

 

Example #2

Dark Age of Camelot (but same holds true to EQ, AC, AO, SWG, Lineage, Dark Sun Online, Never Winter Nights, The Realms and a host of other MMORPGs that came before WOW)

 

Players enforced standards on Role Play Servers

 

On the DAoC RP servers there was offical naming rules and players didnt think twice of reporting non RP names to have them changed.

 

Now a day on a RP server Ive lost count how many Revans, Anakins, OBeeOne, Vader, ect I seen despite those names specifically being violations in the Terms of Service.

 

Players on the Old RP servers didnt just accept bad names amongst them.

Gamers today try to make anyone who asks for naming rules be enforced on RP servers as the problem, rather then the name breaking the rules.

HUGE mentality difference

 

Player conduct on RP servers was enforced by the player population so if you had some idiot ninja looting, greifing others, kill stealing, or host of other actions commonly acceptable as normal every day behavior in the modern era gamers. In the older era the player population would spread the problem players name and there would be a intentional exclusion of problem players from joining in to do content.

 

They would not find groups

They would not get rez's

They would be outcast and punished for bad behavior.

 

Bad, anti social, negative behavior in modern times is not only acceptable, its often rewarded by modern gamers.

 

Huge difference in mind set and acceptable behavior paterns between the "yesterday folk" and many of the "gamers of today"

 

Example #3

 

I think the biggest difference between old school gamers and modern gamers is the ability to problem solve and work out issues.

 

Back before WOW the only time you really saw players demanding things of Dev was bug fixes and exploit fixes.

Im hard pressed to even remember a situation where the gamers on whole demanded the games they were playing be dumbed down by the devs.

 

Today you cant click a link with out seeing a modern gamer demanding free this, faster that, easier this, ect ect ect.

 

It just wasnt done in old days.

Players figured things out

Worked with others if they couldnt do so solo

they didnt demand the devs play the game for them like is so common now a days.

 

I have a hard time imagining ANY WOW or after player gleefully taking part in a 4-6 hour dragon raid where you might die 10 times and get no loot but you stayed and worked togather with 100 other players for the experience and fun.

 

I have a hard time imagining any players that came in at WOW or later signing up (and honoring) a schedual on when they could camp a spawn in a MMORPG for a certain drop. Sometimes signing up months in advance and being mature enough to know every one is in the same boat so you dont try to kill steal or jump position.

 

Simply would not happen with the modern crowd.

 

Example #4

 

Back when this genre launched on AOL in 1991 there was a game called Neverwinter Night and in that game you would have RPers interacting with PVPers interacting with PKers interacting with casuals, and every kind of player inbetween.

 

You NEVER saw one play style intentionally belittle or insult another playstyle.

They shared space and time and figured it out it was easier to accept and move on then insult and troll and flame

Course the game charged $20.00 for 20 hours a month and then $2.95/hour after that ($3.95/hour for Canadians) so time was money and it wasnt to be wasted.

 

You will NEVER see that type of acceptance in modern gamers.

Just will never happen beyond a couple folk here and there

These forums alone are filled with PVP vrs RP vrs Casual vrs ... and all of them want their specific style to riegn superior and most important.

Hell most thread are not just about getting what they want for their style, there is a definate overveiw in those threads cheering on the nerfing or changing of other play styles.

 

And thats just tipping the iceberg of the dramatic changes between older gamers and the modern era.

 

ANYONE who seriously thinks 'The Gamers of Today... Are the same as the Gamers of Yesterday" is either trolling for attention or delusional.

 

the two types couldnt be more different and the attitude of gamers has changed dramatically over the years.

 

As I said, WOW was the big changing point (for a number of reasons, both good and bad)

 

But make no mistake, there was a changing point and the older gamers share very little in common with modern gamers beyond the generic love of games.

 

Games have evolved and in some way devolved and so have the gamers with each new generation.

 

Would you say a teen ager in 1970s is the same as a teen ager in 2014? I certainly would not. Only thing they have in common is both teen agers at one time in their life. EVERYTHING after that is completely different and surrounded by completely different influences and society pressures.

 

Gaming is no different.

first time MMORPG gamers in 1991, 1994, 1997, or 1998 are night and day from first time MMORPG gamers in 2014.

 

By the title I believe the OP was a reply to a post I made. But to your points I agree with and would also add to it.

 

#5

F2p models IMO this is the #1 issue. I'm not saying all f2p player are the issue but this change has created a much more toxic environment then WoW has. Again just my opinion.

[ZionHalcyon]

By the title I believe the OP was a reply to a post I made. But to your points I agree with and would also add to it.

 

#5

F2p models IMO this is the #1 issue. I'm not saying all f2p player are the issue but this change has created a much more toxic environment then WoW has. Again just my opinion.

 

 

Indeed I did.

 

Because I have seen just how people, some of the SAME PEOPLE, can romanticize things they complained about, just with SWG. I lived SWG for 5+ years starting with Beta2, and pre-launch, it was and still remains one of the best all time MMO communities I have ever been blessed to be a part of.

 

And I saw how at launch, in came the people, including MANY from UO, as the person who made UO made this game. And I can tell you those UO players were TOXIC. Yes, you had many people out to help others. But you know what you also had?

 

• Players trying to put other players trying to start a crafting business out of business before they could even start selling, in order to lock up monopolies
  
• PvP players trash talking across forums and in game including distrubing and vulgar behavior
  
• Once people realized the devs would nerf whoever they cried loudest about, you'd have people from each community intentionally organize in order to get another profession nerfed to hell and back
  
• And it goes on and on and on
  

 

And those same people, who lived that, saw that, and participated in that all said while SWG was still alive how horrible it was, and how they wished it would die, and when SWTOR was announced, how they all REJOICED over it putting SWG out of business!!

 

Until it was revealed that SWTOR was NOT a sandbox - then, and ONLY then, did this massive romanticizing of SWG start, and now people come here and cry about SWTOR not being more like SWG - the very game they played and yet HATED a few years ago.

 

Now I ask you, if such horrible people were able to turn on a dime like that, how much moreso someone with an agenda wishing to romanticize their own MMO past?

 

 

I don't view things with rose colored glasses - I see them for how they are, and make no apologizes for splashing cold water on the overly-romanticized fantasies of yourself and Kalfear and the like.

 

Either you choose to only remember the good of those days and not the bad, else you guys were just too young to pay attention that the same nonsense went on back then that it did now, just on a smaller scale because fewer people were even playing MMOs back then. FPS were big like quake and doom and Jedi Knight, and I can tell you those sorts of behaviors went on there, as well as Diablo and the like.

 

Bigger populations makes problems more obvious. But don't insult people's intelligence by acting like they were non-existent back then, or that everyone was this nice, helpful community - I remember the stories on stories of UO players kill-ganking newbies and delighting in trapping people and stealing all their goods, and PVP gank squads looking for new players to rob to the point where they quit. There is a reason modern MMOs don't allow that level of control any more, and it certainly wasn't because people were "nicer back then".

 

What a load of bull.

[tdmaha]

Indeed I did.

 

Because I have seen just how people, some of the SAME PEOPLE, can romanticize things they complained about, just with SWG. I lived SWG for 5+ years starting with Beta2, and pre-launch, it was and still remains one of the best all time MMO communities I have ever been blessed to be a part of.

 

And I saw how at launch, in came the people, including MANY from UO, as the person who made UO made this game. And I can tell you those UO players were TOXIC. Yes, you had many people out to help others. But you know what you also had?

 

• Players trying to put other players trying to start a crafting business out of business before they could even start selling, in order to lock up monopolies
  
• PvP players trash talking across forums and in game including distrubing and vulgar behavior
  
• Once people realized the devs would nerf whoever they cried loudest about, you'd have people from each community intentionally organize in order to get another profession nerfed to hell and back
  
• And it goes on and on and on
  

 

And those same people, who lived that, saw that, and participated in that all said while SWG was still alive how horrible it was, and how they wished it would die, and when SWTOR was announced, how they all REJOICED over it putting SWG out of business!!

 

Until it was revealed that SWTOR was NOT a sandbox - then, and ONLY then, did this massive romanticizing of SWG start, and now people come here and cry about SWTOR not being more like SWG - the very game they played and yet HATED a few years ago.

 

Now I ask you, if such horrible people were able to turn on a dime like that, how much moreso someone with an agenda wishing to romanticize their own MMO past?

 

 

I don't view things with rose colored glasses - I see them for how they are, and make no apologizes for splashing cold water on the overly-romanticized fantasies of yourself and Kalfear and the like.

 

Either you choose to only remember the good of those days and not the bad, else you guys were just too young to pay attention that the same nonsense went on back then that it did now, just on a smaller scale because fewer people were even playing MMOs back then. FPS were big like quake and doom and Jedi Knight, and I can tell you those sorts of behaviors went on there, as well as Diablo and the like.

 

Bigger populations makes problems more obvious. But don't insult people's intelligence by acting like they were non-existent back then, or that everyone was this nice, helpful community - I remember the stories on stories of UO players kill-ganking newbies and delighting in trapping people and stealing all their goods, and PVP gank squads looking for new players to rob to the point where they quit. There is a reason modern MMOs don't allow that level of control any more, and it certainly wasn't because people were "nicer back then".

 

What a load of bull.

 

Hey try this excise out. Goto any Mmo forums, any website forum like reddit or MMORPG and ask which Mmo community is the worst. You know which one will be mentioned the most the SWG community. Don't come in here with your rose colored glasses acting like the Swg community is a shining example of how a forum should operate. If you truly believe that you need the cold water. Now these others have you on ignore so they can't reply to you but if your going to be a Swg fanboi don't waste my time by replying.

[XiamaraSimi]

Everquest 1 had an NPC called the "Priest of Discord" who would make you a pvp player, and if someone killed you, they could loot your corpse and take some of your gear. The unfortuneate souls who didn't realize what they were getting into had many horror stories to share about the guilds who hunted them down. ( once you turned in the book to the priest, you were stuck unless you rerolled, they eventually put in a quest to revert but it was a long while after)

 

And this was a game where if you died, you ran naked back to your body to loot your corpse, sometimes a good hour trip back depending where you were "soulbound", (

) Edited October 17, 2014 by XiamaraSimi

[Jaxtes]

Trends change, games change and people change with them. Expecting things to go back the way they were or comparing people to yesteryear standards is a futile.

Using blanket statements like previous generation of gamers were better or all new gamers are casuals etc wont help anyone.

[ZionHalcyon]

Hey try this excise out. Goto any Mmo forums, any website forum like reddit or MMORPG and ask which Mmo community is the worst. You know which one will be mentioned the most the SWG community. Don't come in here with your rose colored glasses acting like the Swg community is a shining example of how a forum should operate. If you truly believe that you need the cold water. Now these others have you on ignore so they can't reply to you but if your going to be a Swg fanboi don't waste my time by replying.

 

Maybe I wasn't clear, but let me be now.

 

PRE LAUNCH SWG was the most Awesome Community I ever was a part of.

 

POST LAUNCH when the UO players came in to play SWG, it became bar none the WORST MMO community ever, in no small part to the beloved UO players Kalfear was praising.

 

I thought I made that clear, but on a reread, realize I didn't, so I am clarifying it now.

 

So go back and re-read what I typed with that in mind - don't cherry pick.

[tdmaha]

Maybe I wasn't clear, but let me be now.

 

PRE LAUNCH SWG was the most Awesome Community I ever was a part of.

 

POST LAUNCH when the UO players came in to play SWG, it became bar none the WORST MMO community ever, in no small part to the beloved UO players Kalfear was praising.

 

I thought I made that clear, but on a reread, realize I didn't, so I am clarifying it now.

 

So go back and re-read what I typed with that in mind - don't cherry pick.

 

Cherry pick? You are claiming the Swg community was only bad because of UO players? I think that would be considered a cherry pick if I've ever seen one. Granted I'm not saying UO community was good I was agreeing with your buddy that the community's were better back then and IMO before this f2p thing started.

[Karkais]

...

Would you say a teen ager in 1970s is the same as a teen ager in 2014? I certainly would not. Only thing they have in common is both teen agers at one time in their life. EVERYTHING after that is completely different and surrounded by completely different influences and society pressures.

 

Gaming is no different.

first time MMORPG gamers in 1991, 1994, 1997, or 1998 are night and day from first time MMORPG gamers in 2014.

 

Thank you for a very enlightening and well-argumented read. People like you make these forums worth reading.

d-(' ')z

 

 

If you ask me, a major turn for the worse in SWTOR happened when the game turned free-to-play. If you put food on a platter out to the yard, you will get all manner of animals and insects.

 

There is also a reason why free public toilets are dirtier than those that charge even as little as 10 cents.

Edited October 17, 2014 by Karkais