Kaggath Battlegrounds Heats - Galactic Alliance vs Phantom Hegemony

[Aurbere]

In orbit does not mean in sight though, as we have seen from several of the other Kaggaths. If they cant see each other I feel like it gives more cause to keep the fighters onboard.

 

Grievous will no doubt take an aggressive approach. He has no reason to sit and wait. He has all of the advantages he is comfortable with. This means that the fighters will be launched and the cruisers will move into firing range (note that the Munificent-class has long range guns).

 

It is unlikely that the GA will get the opportunity to target docked fighters.

[karadron]

Grievous will no doubt take an aggressive approach. He has no reason to sit and wait. He has all of the advantages he is comfortable with. This means that the fighters will be launched and the cruisers will move into firing range (note that the Munificent-class has long range guns).

 

It is unlikely that the GA will get the opportunity to target docked fighters.

 

It all depends on who moves first, then. If the GA jumps first before the fighters are out then they can nullify the carriers. They have the firepower to do so in short order. As well launching so many fighters is going to take time, time that the Phantoms can use picking off other ones, keeping the relative number of fighters out roughly even.

[Aurbere]

It all depends on who moves first, then. If the GA jumps first before the fighters are out then they can nullify the carriers. They have the firepower to do so in short order. As well launching so many fighters is going to take time, time that the Phantoms can use picking off other ones, keeping the relative number of fighters out roughly even.

 

Jump where? They are already in system.

[karadron]

Jump where? They are already in system.

 

In system jump, micro-jump. It was actually used in one of the earlier Kaggaths in the series.

[Canino]

Possess a powerful payload: the Hyena-class did not only possess proton torpedos but also proton bombs - something Wolf seems to have missed - designed for surface strikes/orbital bombardment. Twice as powerful as a proton rocket which was more powerful than a proton torpedo, a mere squad of four Hyenas was enough to level an entire city.

 

This kind of firepower will no doubt do extensive damage to an one capital ship.

 

Just wanted to point out that the TIE also used these, so your ships will take a beating as well. That said, point defense will do well to protect you.

 

I'd also like to point out that there might still be a way for the GA to cripple the fighter complements of the PH- A-Wings were known to regularly perform recon/small damage to Imperial Fleets/ships, and get away before any TIE's could be unloaded or point defense system to target them. Especially considering that the A-Wing has built in jammers and scramblers to ruin communication and allow them to remain targeted by point defense and other targeting computers. Now, the TIE is quite a bit faster than the PH's fighter, which could theoretically allow a tactic like this to work.

[Aurbere]

In system jump, micro-jump. It was actually used in one of the earlier Kaggaths in the series.

 

Yeah, with a gravity well generator. That isn't something the GA can apply because they don't have one.

[Beniboybling]

I don't see how this strategy will work.

 

As Aurbere said, both fleets will begin in orbit, and the Phantom Hegemony will undoubtedly see the Alliance first thanks to their extensive sensor technology, not that they need it unless the Alliance is on the other side of the planet.

 

Then they'll launch their fighters, which will not take time, for two reasons.

 

 

1. They are all automated, meaning that without pilots they can be deployed as soon as they receive orders.
    
    
   
2. Escort carriers are designed for rapid deployment. And once they are launched its no big loss if their destroyed.
   

 

In general, the Phantom's will be a threat, but they can't be deployed fast enough for to prevent the Hegemony from launching their own fighters, and before significant damage is done Grievous discover how to deal with them.

[Wolfninjajedi]

OK, time for my own analysis of fighters.

 

Firstly, lets look at the most important factor, numbers.

 

The Galactic Alliance has a total of 576 starfighters at its disposal. The majority of which would be A-Wings. If we want to apply a ratio to that I'd suggest using the IMP-I as a basis, given it is the model battleship. Meaning they'd have 460 A-Wings and 116 TIE bombers. I assume the TIE Phantoms would be added to this count separately.

 

On the other hand, the Phantom Hegemony has approximately 4,896 starfighters. Which, using the Malevolence's complement as a ratio would be comprised of approximately 3,672 Tri-fighters and 1,224 Hyenas.

 

That means the Hegemony's fighters outnumber the Alliance's' 8 to 1. And bombers almost 11 to 1.

 

The Hegemony has a simply colossal fighter advantage, need I really go on? In terms of fighters, I won't bother. It doesn't matter how they stack up the A-Wings - though I believe them superior - sheer numbers wins in every department.

 

Hyena-class bomber

 

Possess a powerful payload: the Hyena-class did not only possess proton torpedos but also proton bombs - something Wolf seems to have missed - designed for surface strikes/orbital bombardment. Twice as powerful as a proton rocket which was more powerful than a proton torpedo, a mere squad of four Hyenas was enough to level an entire city.

 

This kind of firepower will no doubt do extensive damage to an one capital ship.

 

Remained a capable fighter: the Hyena was able to be used for the purpose of a fighter and similar in structure to the Vulture-class it is more than likely that it was close to the vessel in terms of speed and maneuverability. Simply put it is not your average sluggish bomber, being 25% faster than the TIE bomber, based on atmospheric speeds.

 

And considering that the the Alliance's Nebulas have no point-defence to speak off, and their fighters will be swiftly overwhelmed by tri-fighters, the Hyenas will be able to strike at the enemy with near impunity.

 

Noting that the Dreadnaughts have laser cannons at their disposal, but will be the first to be targeted by the Malevolence.

 

Beni, I only see the Hyena having proton torpedos and concussion missile launchers. I see no mention of proton bombs in the sourcebook. So...I didn't overlook that bit.

 

Also sheer numbers don't win everything, the A-wing is superior to the Tri-Fighter in speed and manuverability, they can use this to their advantage to take them out.

 

Couple this with the TIE bombers vast versatility, mine laying, missiles, they won't have it ease. So just by sheer numbers, it won't cut it.

Edited October 13, 2014 by Wolfninjajedi

[Beniboybling]

Beni, I only see the Hyena having proton torpedos and concussion missile launchers. I see no mention of proton bombs in the sourcebook. So...I didn't overlook that bit.

Are you using the Clone Wars Campaign Guide?

[Wolfninjajedi]

Are you using the Clone Wars Campaign Guide?

 

Yeah. You want a screenshot?

Edited October 13, 2014 by Wolfninjajedi

[Beniboybling]

Yeah.

Well that's strange, anyway, TCW features proton bombs being used, because as far as I'm aware proton torpedos can't be used for orbital bombardment.

[Beniboybling]

Beni, I only see the Hyena having proton torpedos and concussion missile launchers. I see no mention of proton bombs in the sourcebook. So...I didn't overlook that bit.

 

Also sheer numbers don't win everything, the A-wing is superior to the Tri-Fighter in speed and manuverability, they can use this to their advantage to take them out.

 

Couple this with the TIE bombers vast versatility, mine laying, missiles, they won't have it ease. So just by sheer numbers, it won't cut it.

Sheer numbers do win in space engagements I'm afraid. If 9 Tri-fighters are dog-fighting with 1 A-Wing its practically the equivalent of 1 Tri-fighter with 9 times the speed, maneuverability and firepower. Because it can be in 9 places at once, attack and cover 9 different angles and unleash 9 times the firepower on its target.

 

The sole A-Wing won't stand a chance. Pretty much end of discussion I'm afraid.

 

And the TIE-bombers vast versatility will be of no use to them when they are obliterated by tri-fighters and point defense cannons. They will have no A-Wings to screen them, and will be vastly outnumbered and outgunned.

 

This also pretty much sinks any possibility of the Hegemony vessels being boarded.

[Wolfninjajedi]

Well that's strange, anyway, TCW features proton bombs being used, because as far as I'm aware proton torpedos can't be used for orbital bombardment.

 

I just watched the episode...there wasn't any proton bombs or anything regarding the bombers as far as taking out a city..unless I missed something and it was a different episode.

[Aurbere]

Beni is right about numbers. Sure, the GA pilots are probably more skilled, but there is only so much that skill can do when the numbers are so steep. At best they will be able to do some damage, but they will eventually be overwhelmed.

 

However, the GA has the advantage provided to them with stealth. The TIE Phantoms and Jaina in her StealthX will do some major damage. Jaina herself being able to take on an entire Sith war fleet on her own. Hit and run strikes will do major damage to the enemy fighters. In the right place at the right time, they can make a hole for a bomber strike.

[Wolfninjajedi]

Sheer numbers do win in space engagements I'm afraid. If 9 Tri-fighters are dog-fighting with 1 A-Wing its practically the equivalent of 1 Tri-fighter with 9 times the speed, maneuverability and firepower. Because it can be in 9 places at once, attack and cover 9 different angles and unleash 9 times the firepower on its target.

 

The sole A-Wing won't stand a chance. Pretty much end of discussion I'm afraid.

 

And the TIE-bombers vast versatility will be of no use to them when they are obliterated by tri-fighters and point defense cannons. They will have no A-Wings to screen them, and will be vastly outnumbered and outgunned.

 

This also pretty much sinks any possibility of the Hegemony vessels being boarded.

 

Because the GA is only gonna send 1 A-wing and the rest of the fighters won't cover eachother....right.

Edited October 13, 2014 by Wolfninjajedi

[Aurbere]

Because the GA is only gonna send 1 A-wing and the rest of the fighters won't cover eachother....right.

 

What he's saying is that the PH's fighters outnumber the GA's fighters 9:1. So, logically, there are 9 tri-fighters to each A-Wing.

 

Sure, they'll cover each other, but how much is that going to do?

[Wolfninjajedi]

Beni is right about numbers. Sure, the GA pilots are probably more skilled, but there is only so much that skill can do when the numbers are so steep. At best they will be able to do some damage, but they will eventually be overwhelmed.

 

However, the GA has the advantage provided to them with stealth. The TIE Phantoms and Jaina in her StealthX will do some major damage. Jaina herself being able to take on an entire Sith war fleet on her own. Hit and run strikes will do major damage to the enemy fighters. In the right place at the right time, they can make a hole for a bomber strike.

 

So then why can't they win?...Again numbers don't always mean a victory, it takes strategy too.

 

Lager forces =/= victory, pretty sure that has been shown a few times.

[Wolfninjajedi]

What he's saying is that the PH's fighters outnumber the GA's fighters 9:1. So, logically, there are 9 tri-fighters to each A-Wing.

 

Sure, they'll cover each other, but how much is that going to do?

 

A lot really....considering the GA pilots are more skilled than the PH ones.

 

Plus as you said, they have Jaina and the TIE Phantoms for stealth hit and run attacks which the TIE Phantoms did do.

Edited October 13, 2014 by Wolfninjajedi

[Beniboybling]

Just wanted to point out that the TIE also used these, so your ships will take a beating as well. That said, point defense will do well to protect you.

 

I'd also like to point out that there might still be a way for the GA to cripple the fighter complements of the PH- A-Wings were known to regularly perform recon/small damage to Imperial Fleets/ships, and get away before any TIE's could be unloaded or point defense system to target them. Especially considering that the A-Wing has built in jammers and scramblers to ruin communication and allow them to remain targeted by point defense and other targeting computers. Now, the TIE is quite a bit faster than the PH's fighter, which could theoretically allow a tactic like this to work.

Assuming Grievous chooses to split his fighters in half the TIE bombers will have to contend around 1,800 fighters (that's a 15 to 1 advantage), hundreds of buzz droids, 1,226 point defense cannons and 12 concussion missile launchers in order to reach the Hegemony's fleets, that is if they manage to get past the Malevolence's own array of cannons.

 

Indeed, the Malevolence is the only real ship the TIE bombers have a hope of targeting, and with its immense shield and hull strength it will laugh at the TIEs feeble attempts to damage it. Grievous, I can assure you, will not be worried.

 

Just a general point, bombers will really be off no use to the Alliance here.

 

P.S. The A-Wing doesn't really have the firepower to destroy a capital ship, and droid fighters deploy faster than TIEs. The Munificents also have very powerful sensor arrays, I doubt they could be so easily scrambled.

[Aurbere]

So then why can't they win?...Again numbers don't always mean a victory, it takes strategy too.

 

Lager forces =/= victory, pretty sure that has been shown a few times.

 

They can win. I never said they couldn't win.

 

That's true, but it depends on how the GA works with what they have.

[Beniboybling]

I just watched the episode...there wasn't any proton bombs or anything regarding the bombers as far as taking out a city..unless I missed something and it was a different episode.

Maybe you did watch the wrong one, because it features Hyena bombers orbitally bombarding villages (for which I assume you need proton bombs) and a small squad of bombers being sent to level the entire capital city.

[Wolfninjajedi]

Maybe you did watch the wrong one, because it features Hyena bombers orbitally bombarding villages (for which I assume you need proton bombs) and a small squad of bombers being sent to level the entire capital city.

 

Which episode? Because it's sourced to the Liberty of Ryloth with the bombing thing.

Edited October 13, 2014 by Wolfninjajedi

[Aurbere]

I'm going to take a moment to note that Jaina's StealthX is equipped with Jedi Shadow Bombs rather than the standard proton torpedo.

[Beniboybling]

Beni is right about numbers. Sure, the GA pilots are probably more skilled, but there is only so much that skill can do when the numbers are so steep. At best they will be able to do some damage, but they will eventually be overwhelmed.

 

However, the GA has the advantage provided to them with stealth. The TIE Phantoms and Jaina in her StealthX will do some major damage. Jaina herself being able to take on an entire Sith war fleet on her own. Hit and run strikes will do major damage to the enemy fighters. In the right place at the right time, they can make a hole for a bomber strike.

Sorry, but I have to dispute that as well.

 

A squad of tri-fighters made Saesee Tinn hot under the collar, and they consistently ruin Kenobi's day.

 

Its a myth in my opinion that organic pilots beat droid pilots. On the field of battle yes a certainly level of organic ingenuity comes into play. But in spaces its all about intercept and fire, its practically entirely mathematics.

 

And droids excel in mathematics, and can perform maneuver hat organics are simply incapable of.

[Aurbere]

Sorry, but I have to dispute that as well.

 

A squad of tri-fighters made Saesee Tinn hot under the collar, and they consistently ruin Kenobi's day.

 

Its a myth in my opinion that organic pilots beat droid pilots. On the field of battle yes a certainly level of organic ingenuity comes into play. But in spaces its all about intercept and fire, its practically entirely mathematics.

 

And droids excel in mathematics, and can perform maneuver hat organics are simply incapable of.

 

I did say probably. Interesting point, though.

 

Though, to be honest, does skill matter for them? There's a ton of them, they don't need to be the best pilots on the field.