Beniboybling Posted October 13, 2014 Author Share Posted October 13, 2014 Hence why I said forget everything I said. Although this means, that the GA has no specialized Stormtroopers at all, ah well...that sucks, eh least the ground is good for all kinds. Which means all the info I gave you Karadron....useless, sorry. XD Thought you just had Stormtroopers not the 501st.. Although I do have some info regarding Rebel SpecForce, so you're not completely out of info...will get that set. After I do the fighter thing.Well Scout Troopers, Jumptroopers, Incinerator troopers and Shock troopers remain. Not that I want to give my opponent any ideas... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfninjajedi Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 (edited) I prefer the term specialized. 1. Any heavy transport capable of withstanding the firepower of multiple tri-fighters and point-defense cannons will be slow enough to be targeted by turbolaser cannons. On top of that they'd have to cut through the hull to gain access, seeing as the Hegemony's warships aside from the Malevolence possess no hangars, making them sitting ducks. 2. As I say, shock factor will render them incapable of reacting fast enough. Remembering we are dealing with small corridors here, a single war droid could block such a corridor completely, making them impossible to flank. As an additional point, the smoke produced by the carbonite gun seriously reduces visibility. I'm afraid that is weakness that applies only the the incinerator war droid, which I opted not to take. 3. As I say, worst case scenario... Oh really? Hm? Canister in back Doesn't seem that way to me... 1. RIght, but it's not like the transports can't also have covering fire and the transport shields are able to withstand a large amount of firepower before being broken through. Why is it that you can do boarding parties but not the other side?... 2. What shock factor?.....Rebels have seen plenty of things the Empire has to offer, the 501st certainly has seen plenty...shock factor...not sure that would be an issue. Ok an a corridor, yes...but then they wouldn't have to fight in a corridor, and if they come across one, they could always find another route around it. Edited October 13, 2014 by Wolfninjajedi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted October 13, 2014 Author Share Posted October 13, 2014 I forget, didn't carbonite war droids have a tendency to freeze themselves in TFU II?Only if the carbonite arm was cut off, sending carbonite gas everywhere. They were however, freeze resistant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 Only if the carbonite arm was cut off, sending carbonite gas everywhere. They were however, freeze resistant. Oh, right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 Something I want to point out real quick for some discussion. If Jaina and Tholme are going to board the Malevolence, what are the odds that Jaina would teach Tholme the Battle Meld technique? Tholme obviously has experience in that type of technique, so it could be possible for him to learn it. The question I have is, how long does it take to learn it? This is something that could have an impact if it were applied. Also, since we are on the topic of boarding parties, I would like to see both sides discuss their defenses to this tactic. Remember to include any and all possibilities. Don't attempt to invalidate the tactic, even if you think it isn't a good idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canino Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 Beni, I just want you to know I'm staying as neutral as possible for this round. I will help you, but I'm gathering information first. Oh, but I think the Malevolence is going down. But you might win space.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canino Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 Something I want to point out real quick for some discussion. If Jaina and Tholme are going to board the Malevolence, what are the odds that Jaina would teach Tholme the Battle Meld technique? Tholme obviously has experience in that type of technique, so it could be possible for him to learn it. The question I have is, how long does it take to learn it? This is something that could have an impact if it were applied. Also, since we are on the topic of boarding parties, I would like to see both sides discuss their defenses to this tactic. Remember to include any and all possibilities. Don't attempt to invalidate the tactic, even if you think it isn't a good idea. I would also add that Tholme could easily teach her force cloak. He taught the technique to both Quinlan and Aayla, so he is more than capable of teaching it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted October 13, 2014 Author Share Posted October 13, 2014 Oh really? Hm? Canister in back Doesn't seem that way to me... 1. RIght, but it's not like the transports can't also have covering fire and the transport shields are able to withstand a large amount of firepower before being broken through. Why is it that you can do boarding parties but not the other side?... 2. What shock factor?.....Rebels have seen plenty of things the Empire has to offer, the 501st certainly has seen plenty...shock factor...not sure that would be an issue. Ok an a corridor, yes...but then they wouldn't have to fight in a corridor, and if they come across one, they could always find another route around it.Carbonite is not, as far as I'm aware, explosive, so it would cause a leakage but nothing incapacitating. 1. Because the Hegemony has space-superiority fighters in more numbers than the enemy, meaning they can provide a more effective screen, and in terms of fighters, put the Alliance on the defensive as opposed to offense, the Hegemony has superior point defense and drop pods can be launched straight from the Malevolence as it plows into them. The Alliance simply doesn't have the means to overwhelm the Hegemony's defenses with a screen of fighters 2. Nobody is going to expect the droid to start spraying them with carbonite, as soon as they realise its capabilities half of their forces will be incapacitated and I doubt there is anything in their handbook which describes how to deal with such a threat. It is both alien and unexpected, which will give them pause, a pause they simply cannot afford. Why not? Are they crawling through the ventilation shafts or something? They need to move through the ship somehow, they will obviously use the corridors to do so and then the war droids will be moved to intercept them. They'd never escape, the war droid would pursue and it is capable of firing shots of carbonite across long distances, then they run into a wall of B2 battle droids and they are trapped and reduced to statues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 I would also add that Tholme could easily teach her force cloak. He taught the technique to both Quinlan and Aayla, so he is more than capable of teaching it. Jaina knows how to conceal her presence in the Force. If you are referring to the technique of making one invisible, I was not aware Tholme knew that. It would explain some things if he did, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted October 13, 2014 Author Share Posted October 13, 2014 (edited) Something I want to point out real quick for some discussion. If Jaina and Tholme are going to board the Malevolence, what are the odds that Jaina would teach Tholme the Battle Meld technique? Tholme obviously has experience in that type of technique, so it could be possible for him to learn it. The question I have is, how long does it take to learn it? This is something that could have an impact if it were applied. Also, since we are on the topic of boarding parties, I would like to see both sides discuss their defenses to this tactic. Remember to include any and all possibilities. Don't attempt to invalidate the tactic, even if you think it isn't a good idea.More time than they have one would think. Concerning Tholme, I highly doubt he will be in space already, that would be putting all one's eggs in one basket, also account for the fact that his is neither a naval tactician nor a fighter pilot. This adds only more time. Time the Hegemony will be using to eliminate Gilad and Iblis and send the fleet into disarray. http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=7728421&postcount=239 I'd add to that that the Hegemony's ships have no hangars, and have a fighter advantage. Edited October 13, 2014 by Beniboybling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted October 13, 2014 Author Share Posted October 13, 2014 (edited) I would also add that Tholme could easily teach her force cloak. He taught the technique to both Quinlan and Aayla, so he is more than capable of teaching it. Tholme as far as I know can only cloak his Force presence, not himself from the naked eye. Edited October 13, 2014 by Beniboybling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canino Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 (edited) Both of you would be incorrect- Tholme does know how to make himself invisible using force cloak. He is also a master of force concealment, or hiding his presence.. Sources? First off, go to Force Cloak's page. Notable users. Secondly, it makes sense. Quinalan only learned darkside techniques under Dooku, and learned his saber forms separately. All other force powers were taught by Tholme. Now, Tholme taught Quinalan (and later Aayla) everything he knew. I repeat, everything. Quinlan trained Aayla the same way. When Quinlan fell to the darkside, Tholme became the master of Aayla, and taught her as well. Both of them know Force Cloak, so it only makes sense for them to have learned it from Tholme. And finally, this quote. "Vos was also one of the few Jedi who was able to use Force cloak, which he learned from Tholme and taught Secura." Edited October 13, 2014 by Canino Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 I said that I was not aware he knew Force Cloak, but I considered him knowing it to be possible. And I was apparently right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canino Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 I said that I was not aware he knew Force Cloak, but I considered him knowing it to be possible. And I was apparently right. I apologize then. I guess we should consider the possibility of him teaching Jaina the technique, and her teaching him Battle Meld. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted October 13, 2014 Author Share Posted October 13, 2014 (edited) Fair enough, however its hardly a technique you can teach a person in the space of minutes. Or battle meld, they don't have the time to have to sit around meditating. Edited October 13, 2014 by Beniboybling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 (edited) After doing some quick research on the ships used by both factions, I think it should be important to note that the GA fleet has barely, if any at all, point defense guns. However, the PH has point defense guns like their going out of style. That will impact the space battle heavily. The GA is already heavily outnumbered in the starfighter game, and they lack any real fighter defense for their larger cruisers. Meanwhile, the PH has a ton of point defense guns and an insane number of fighters. Edit: The GA will need to find a way to overcome that disadvantage. Edited October 13, 2014 by Aurbere Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 I apologize then. I guess we should consider the possibility of him teaching Jaina the technique, and her teaching him Battle Meld. No apology necessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted October 13, 2014 Author Share Posted October 13, 2014 After doing some quick research on the ships used by both factions, I think it should be important to note that the GA fleet has barely, if any at all, point defense guns. However, the PH has point defense guns like their going out of style. That will impact the space battle heavily. The GA is already heavily outnumbered in the starfighter game, and they lack any real fighter defense for their larger cruisers. Meanwhile, the PH has a ton of point defense guns and an insane number of fighters.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5qAKXK_aLeA&t=1m44s Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfninjajedi Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 (edited) Alright so....let's get into fighters, hm? A-Wing vs Droid Tri-Fighter A-wing - Speed= 5,100 Gs - Size= 9.6 meters - Armaments= 2 blaster cannon able to pivot to 60 degrees for greater field of fire, concussion missiles superior to blaster cannons, short range Droid Tri-Fighter - Speed= 3,600 Gs - Size= 5.4 meters length, 1.96 meters wing diameter and 3.45 meters width. - Armaments= 1 medium laser cannon, 3 light laser cannons, 2-6 buzz droid missiles. ====== So it's clear, the A-wing is much faster than the Tri-Fighter, however the Tri-Fighter has the edge in size and armaments. However with the A-wings speed, the Tri-Fighters will have trouble hitting them as the A-wings could run circles around them. The buzz droids could leave for a nasty surprise though. ===== TIE Bomber vs Hyena class bomber TIE Bomber - Speed= 2,380 Gs - Size= 7.8 meters long - Armaments= Variety of things, proton torpedos(8), high yield proton bombs(8), guided concussion missiles(16), orbital mines(6), free-falling thermal detonators(64), 2 light laser cannons Hyena class bomber - Speed= 1, 150 km/h(atmospheric speed, don't have the Gs, someone could convert?) - Size= 3.1 meters, 12.48 meters(it has 2 lengths? Guess one is when it's docked) - Armaments= 6 light concussion missiles, 6 proton torpedos, light laser cannons ====== Alright so, the TIE bomber clearly blows the Hyena out of the water with it's versatility, speed not sure on...size...I guess the Hyena takes it?... Although the TIE Bomber has a lot of versatility and can do some pretty nasty things. ====== TIE Phantom vs HMP Droid Gunship TIE Phantom - Speed= 1,490 km/h(again atmospheric speed, can convert to Gs?) - Size= N/A - Armaments= Cloaking device, laser cannons HMP Droid Gunship - Speed= 100Gs(in space) - Size= (excluding guns) 12.3 meters, 11 meters width, 3.1 meters height - Armaments= 2 laser cannons, 1 medium laser cannon, 2 light laser cannons, 14 missiles So...odd matchup here, Gunship outclasses everything on the TIE Phantom with the exception of size(obviously) and a cloaking device. However...these Gunships are meant for atmospheric attacks, why put them in space engagements....no idea, because even the TIE bomber can run circles around these things. ======= So as far as this goes.... Speed= GA takes Size= PH takes Versatility= GA takes The Gunship though....why is the Gunship here... Edited October 13, 2014 by Wolfninjajedi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfninjajedi Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 Well Scout Troopers, Jumptroopers, Incinerator troopers and Shock troopers remain. Not that I want to give my opponent any ideas... The 501st didn't have any of those. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfninjajedi Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 Carbonite is not, as far as I'm aware, explosive, so it would cause a leakage but nothing incapacitating. 1. Because the Hegemony has space-superiority fighters in more numbers than the enemy, meaning they can provide a more effective screen, and in terms of fighters, put the Alliance on the defensive as opposed to offense, the Hegemony has superior point defense and drop pods can be launched straight from the Malevolence as it plows into them. The Alliance simply doesn't have the means to overwhelm the Hegemony's defenses with a screen of fighters 2. Nobody is going to expect the droid to start spraying them with carbonite, as soon as they realise its capabilities half of their forces will be incapacitated and I doubt there is anything in their handbook which describes how to deal with such a threat. It is both alien and unexpected, which will give them pause, a pause they simply cannot afford. Why not? Are they crawling through the ventilation shafts or something? They need to move through the ship somehow, they will obviously use the corridors to do so and then the war droids will be moved to intercept them. They'd never escape, the war droid would pursue and it is capable of firing shots of carbonite across long distances, then they run into a wall of B2 battle droids and they are trapped and reduced to statues. 1. Says where?? 2. Right but when it does, not like they are just gonna stand and be hit by it. Right they will use the corridors, but if they come across the War Droid they could lure it to a much bigger area, like the hanger bay and take it out. The distance shot isn't that great, sure it can go a nice distance, but not very long to get them all and it can't fire while it's walking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karadron Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 After doing some quick research on the ships used by both factions, I think it should be important to note that the GA fleet has barely, if any at all, point defense guns. However, the PH has point defense guns like their going out of style. That will impact the space battle heavily. The GA is already heavily outnumbered in the starfighter game, and they lack any real fighter defense for their larger cruisers. Meanwhile, the PH has a ton of point defense guns and an insane number of fighters. Edit: The GA will need to find a way to overcome that disadvantage. The GA can overcome the fighters by taking out the carriers before they can launch them. Clone Wars engagements saw the fighters being launched as the battle started whilst Rebel strategy launched the fighters first before they jumped in. Sending in the Phantoms in as scouts can wreck havoc as fighters have to launch as they can appear and disappear as well as do massive damage in a quick amount of time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 The GA can overcome the fighters by taking out the carriers before they can launch them. Clone Wars engagements saw the fighters being launched as the battle started whilst Rebel strategy launched the fighters first before they jumped in. Sending in the Phantoms in as scouts can wreck havoc as fighters have to launch as they can appear and disappear as well as do massive damage in a quick amount of time. Both factions start in orbit. There can be no doubt that the fighters will be launched immediately for both sides. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted October 13, 2014 Author Share Posted October 13, 2014 (edited) OK, time for my own analysis of fighters. Firstly, lets look at the most important factor, numbers. The Galactic Alliance has a total of 576 starfighters at its disposal. The majority of which would be A-Wings. If we want to apply a ratio to that I'd suggest using the IMP-I as a basis, given it is the model battleship. Meaning they'd have 460 A-Wings and 116 TIE bombers. I assume the TIE Phantoms would be added to this count separately. On the other hand, the Phantom Hegemony has approximately 4,896 starfighters. Which, using the Malevolence's complement as a ratio would be comprised of approximately 3,672 Tri-fighters and 1,224 Hyenas. That means the Hegemony's fighters outnumber the Alliance's' 8 to 1. And bombers almost 11 to 1. The Hegemony has a simply colossal fighter advantage, need I really go on? In terms of fighters, I won't bother. It doesn't matter how they stack up the A-Wings - though I believe them superior - sheer numbers wins in every department. Hyena-class bomber Possess a powerful payload: the Hyena-class did not only possess proton torpedos but also proton bombs - something Wolf seems to have missed - designed for surface strikes/orbital bombardment. Twice as powerful as a proton rocket which was more powerful than a proton torpedo, a mere squad of four Hyenas was enough to level an entire city. This kind of firepower will no doubt do extensive damage to an one capital ship. Remained a capable fighter: the Hyena was able to be used for the purpose of a fighter and similar in structure to the Vulture-class it is more than likely that it was close to the vessel in terms of speed and maneuverability. Simply put it is not your average sluggish bomber, being 25% faster than the TIE bomber, based on atmospheric speeds. And considering that the the Alliance's Nebulas have no point-defence to speak off, and their fighters will be swiftly overwhelmed by tri-fighters, the Hyenas will be able to strike at the enemy with near impunity. Noting that the Dreadnaughts have laser cannons at their disposal, but will be the first to be targeted by the Malevolence. Edited October 13, 2014 by Beniboybling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karadron Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 Both factions start in orbit. There can be no doubt that the fighters will be launched immediately for both sides. In orbit does not mean in sight though, as we have seen from several of the other Kaggaths. If they cant see each other I feel like it gives more cause to keep the fighters onboard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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