Star Wars Rebels

[Beniboybling]

Agreed that this is meant to be about indoctrination, not actually spitting them out as full-fledged stormtroopers. The line about "are you ready to become stormtroopers" definitely sounded like a means of getting them psyched up (plus a line to use in a trailer).

 

Even the "when you leave, you will do so as soldiers" line sounded like rhetoric rather than saying they'd be soldiers in any official capacity. Kind of the dark side when of a coming of age story has a dad telling his son "you're a man now Timmy, take care of your mom and sister for me" or a "we're not kids anymore, we have to start thinking like soldiers" line from a Red Dawn/Tomorrow When the War Began style plot - it's all about shaping how they think, in this case getting them to think of themselves as a loyal part of the Empire.

You make it sound so cool on paper, and yet the episode was so lame.

[DarthDymond]

Actually the whole thing has me thinking of a great line from the Stargate series that tried to explain why the bad guys there were so ineffective against the heroes:

 

Col. O'Neill holding the bad guys' main weapon, a Jaffa Staff Weapon

• "This is a weapon of terror: it's made to intimidate the enemy"
  

then holding a U.S.-issued FN P90 PDW

• "This is a weapon of war: it's made to kill the enemy."
  

 

The stormtroopers themselves are basically 'weapons of terror' as opposed to 'weapons of war' like the Clone Troopers were. The war is over - stormtroopers' main function is to inspire fear and through that fear subjugate the worlds of the galaxy, not to fight in fullblown battles the way the Clone Troopers were. It makes sense that they'd be significantly less competent - the main objective is indoctrination (of the troopers themselves) and subjugation through fear (of the civilian population).

 

It's actually a fairly appropriate role for them as well, given that one of their main inspirations was the Sturmabteilung (Storm Detachment - better known as the Brown Shirts), a Nazi Paramilitary arm invoking the actual German army's stormtroopers or Sturmtruppen, that helped Hitler's rise to power by intimidating (or just murdering) his opponents with their thuggish tactics.

Edited November 4, 2014 by DarthDymond

[Beniboybling]

Actually the whole things has me thinking of a great line from the Stargate series that tried to explain why the bad guys there were so ineffective against the heroes:

 

Col. O'Neill holding the bad guys' main weapon, a Jaffa Staff Weapon

• "This is a weapon of terror: it's made to intimidate the enemy"
  

then holding a U.S.-issued FN P90 PDW

• "This is a weapon of war: it's made to kill the enemy."
  

 

The stormtroopers themselves are basically 'weapons of terror' as opposed to 'weapons of war' like the Clone Troopers were. The war is over - stormtroopers' main function is to inspire fear and through that fear subjugate the worlds of the galaxy, not to fight in fullblown battles the way the Clone Troopers were. It makes sense that they'd be significantly less competent - the main objective is indoctrination (of the troopers themselves) and subjugation through fear (of the civilian population).

 

It's actually a fairly appropriate role for them as well, given that one of their main inspirations was the Sturmabteilung (Storm Detachment - better known as the Brown Shirts), a Nazi Paramilitary arm invoking the actual German army's stormtroopers or Sturmtruppen, that helped Hitler's rise to power by intimidating (or just murdering) his opponents with their thuggish tactics.

That is an interesting thought, and yeah the main reason Stormtroopers and worse than Clone Troopers is because quantity has been favored over quantity, because an infinite army is just more intimidating.

 

But I thought the Sturmtruppen, not those other guys, were what the Stormtroopers were supposed to be based on? Though to be honest I always thought it was just the namesake as opposed to their actual specific role.

[DarthDymond]

That is an interesting thought, and yeah the main reason Stormtroopers and worse than Clone Troopers is because quantity has been favored over quantity, because an infinite army is just more intimidating.

 

But I thought the Sturmtruppen, not those other guys, were what the Stormtroopers were supposed to be based on? Though to be honest I always thought it was just the namesake as opposed to their actual specific role.

The fact that the stormtroopers operate outside the traditional military hierarchy (or did under the Legends continuity) definitely makes them seem like the Brownshirts. Although since the Brownshirts themselves were drawing inspiration from the Sturmtruppen I expect a good part of the Sturmtruppen made it into the 'final product' of the Imperial Stormtroopers.

 

Best analogy I can come up with is in American politics, but if an author was creating a sci-fi counterpart to the American Conservative movement (the way the Empire was based off of Nazi Germany) they might create a paramilitary wing based off of the "Minutemen" vigilantes (not trying to be politically charged with that term, just don't have a better one handy) who now patrol the US-Mexico border, but in crafting the sci-fi equivalent, chances are some aspects of the fictional group would end up based on the original Minutemen of the American Revolution.

 

Heck the Empire as a whole is a mishmash of the Third Reich and the Roman Empire, which was the First Reich (okay, technically the Holy Roman Empire was the First Reich).

Edited November 4, 2014 by DarthDymond

[Beniboybling]

The fact that the stormtroopers operate outside the traditional military hierarchy (or did under the Legends continuity) definitely makes them seem like the Brownshirts. Although since the Brownshirts themselves were drawing inspiration from the Sturmtruppen I expect a good part of the Sturmtruppen made it into the 'final product' of the Imperial Stormtroopers.

 

Best analogy I can come up with is in American politics, but if an author was creating a sci-fi counterpart to the American Conservative movement (the way the Empire was based off of Nazi Germany) they might create a paramilitary wing based off of the "Minutemen" vigilantes (not trying to be politically charged with that term, just don't have a better one handy) who now patrol the US-Mexico border, but in crafting the sci-fi equivalent, chances are some aspects of the fictional group would end up based on the original Minutemen of the American Revolution.

 

Heck the Empire as a whole is a mishmash of the Third Reich and the Roman Empire, which was the First Reich (okay, technically the Holy Roman Empire was the First Reich).

But are the Stormtroopers not the backbone of the Imperial Military? As in standard infantry?

[DarthDymond]

But are the Stormtroopers not the backbone of the Imperial Military? As in standard infantry?

Based on what we see on-screen? Yeah, that's definitely how they seem (and how they may be categorized in the New Canon).

 

In the supplementary material/Legends EU? No - they're an elite branch that is separate from the Imperial Army (which is the backbone of the Empire's ground-side military). Link

Although stormtroopers often worked alongside the Imperial Army, Intelligence and Navy, the Stormtrooper Corps operated independently of all branches of the Imperial Military. Hence, the Corps possessed its own command structure, ranking system and support facilities. Together with the Imperial Royal Guard, stormtroopers answered directly to Emperor Palpatine, but were managed on a daily basis by Stormtrooper Command.

Edited November 4, 2014 by DarthDymond

[Beniboybling]

Based on what we see on-screen? Yeah, that's definitely how they seem (and how they may be categorized in the New Canon).

 

In the supplementary material/Legends EU? No - they're an elite branch that is separate from the Imperial Army (which is the backbone of the Empire's ground-side military). Link

Ah, interesting.

[Wolfninjajedi]

Actually the whole thing has me thinking of a great line from the Stargate series that tried to explain why the bad guys there were so ineffective against the heroes:

 

Col. O'Neill holding the bad guys' main weapon, a Jaffa Staff Weapon

• "This is a weapon of terror: it's made to intimidate the enemy"
  

then holding a U.S.-issued FN P90 PDW

• "This is a weapon of war: it's made to kill the enemy."
  

 

The stormtroopers themselves are basically 'weapons of terror' as opposed to 'weapons of war' like the Clone Troopers were. The war is over - stormtroopers' main function is to inspire fear and through that fear subjugate the worlds of the galaxy, not to fight in fullblown battles the way the Clone Troopers were. It makes sense that they'd be significantly less competent - the main objective is indoctrination (of the troopers themselves) and subjugation through fear (of the civilian population).

 

It's actually a fairly appropriate role for them as well, given that one of their main inspirations was the Sturmabteilung (Storm Detachment - better known as the Brown Shirts), a Nazi Paramilitary arm invoking the actual German army's stormtroopers or Sturmtruppen, that helped Hitler's rise to power by intimidating (or just murdering) his opponents with their thuggish tactics.

 

I don't think Stormtroopers are significantly less than Clones, by all sources the Clones just have an edge with training that is rather negligible when compared to Stormtrooper training which was more than just indoctrination.

 

Of course that was in Legends, this new canon...obviously we don't know anything really other than what we saw in the episode...so yeah, now the Clones have a superior edge....in fact every other military now has a significant edge, but this is due to lack of info really.

 

Also yeah Beni, The Imperial Army Troops were the main force of the Empire. The Stormtroopers were rarely seen and were the 1st strike force, shock troops. 1st sent in to do the fighting, similar to the US marines and also they do higher profile missions.

 

They then had the Army Troops stationed on planet and did the rest of the fighting behind them. Although Army groups did also do missions on their own too, they were well trained and earned the respect and noted as deadly by Rebel SpecForce.

 

Why they aren't seen more?....No idea. But for the movies, pretty much everything took place at key points or during important missions. Which is where the GE sends Stormtroopers, not Army Troops.

 

You do have Imperial Army Troopers though appearing in comics and the like though.

 

I hope though if not in Rebels, future EU brings back the Imperial Army Troops and the like. It was a unique thing for the GE, among a couple of other things that they had, that made them different from the rest.

Edited November 4, 2014 by Wolfninjajedi

[Darth_Advent]

I am beyond sick of the Greater German Reich being the go-to "inspiration" for autocratic states. It's boring, it's derivative, and it's not interesting anymore. It's gotten to the point where I'd rather cheer for the space nazis out of sheer spite.

[t-darko]

I don't really need a top 10 list of anything, because really? I generally like everything that I have read about Star Wars or played, there are some things that bother me...but for the most part I like it all.

 

I took the liberty to highlight the last part of the quote, good to know, to be able to take the good with the bad is an artform. I my self practiced on this and this and well after these explorations, well let me say that the prequels wasn't that much of a surprise . . .

 

as for TCW I learned to like it, as for SW:Rebs, let me say my expectations aren't that high, but working really hard to prevent my SW fandom to turn in to the obligatory SW Fan Rant. As for getting it Right, if we talk about 'MY Star Wars' I probably is the only one to get that right . . .

[Beniboybling]

I am beyond sick of the Greater German Reich being the go-to "inspiration" for autocratic states. It's boring, it's derivative, and it's not interesting anymore. It's gotten to the point where I'd rather cheer for the space nazis out of sheer spite.

Considering that Star Wars was one of the first to draw on this material, I'd say that statement is a bit unfair.

[Wolfninjajedi]

I will say though as of late, they kinda have been wasting potential with TV series for Star Wars. It's always focusing on the Clones and Jedi and now the soon to be Rebel Alliance.

 

Why can't we have a show focusing on the Underworld? Following Smugglers? Bounty Hunters? Crime Lords? I know there was one that was gonna happen, but that's been scrapped apparently.

 

Why not a show focusing on the Law Enforcement? Corellian Security Force? Coruscant Security Force? Senate Guard?

 

It's just...there's a **** ton of things in the SWU that they could focus on and I get it, the Clones and Rebels are the good guys and are most well known...but that isn't really an excuse to not try something new.

Edited November 6, 2014 by Wolfninjajedi

[Darth_Advent]

Considering that Star Wars was one of the first to draw on this material, I'd say that statement is a bit unfair.

 

Nazi boogeyman motifs have been a part of media since long, long before Star Wars IV. In any case, while it may have been fair for late 70's film when part of the fun was the celebration of pulp serials, the canon reboot should be a fertile opportunity to move beyond at least some worn stylistic cliches.

 

So far, though, they're preserving the more dubious parts of the EU like the Empire's racism and are choosing to turn the interesting characteristics of places like Rhyloth (albeit this was Clone Wars) and Kessel into duller settings.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if eventually they completely retcon away any possibility of the ancient Sith species and culture returning to the canon but bring back the Vong in the same stroke.

[BrianDavion]

I will say though as of late, they kinda have been wasting potential with TV series for Star Wars. It's always focusing on the Clones and Jedi and now the soon to be Rebel Alliance.

 

Why can't we have a show focusing on the Underworld? Following Smugglers? Bounty Hunters? Crime Lords? I know there was one that was gonna happen, but that's been scrapped apparently.

 

Why not a show focusing on the Law Enforcement? Corellian Security Force? Coruscant Security Force? Senate Guard?

 

It's just...there's a **** ton of things in the SWU that they could focus on and I get it, the Clones and Rebels are the good guys and are most well known...but that isn't really an excuse to not try something new.

 

 

because it;s too soon for that. I know SW has been around for awhile but disney has only really just got it. they're gonna start with the classic SW stuff. I imagine they'll move out eventually. but it's like marvel. you gotta have the avengers and the super hero cartoons before Agents of sheild

[t-darko]

I wouldn't be surprised if eventually they completely retcon away any possibility of the ancient Sith species and culture returning to the canon but bring back the Vong in the same stroke.

 

Spot on, this is one of my greatest fears, the Vong was all w®ong, BUT I suspect it's certain logic in a 'US Si-Fi SG-1' kinda way . . . As the biomechanics in the 'Fragile Alliance' novel, I love the author but com'mon . . .

 

As for stereotypes in Star Wars, Duh . . . Good vs Evil . . . Dashing heroes vs black mechanical evil thingys . . . Big evil super weapon vs, well. no hope at all . . . We all want our Star Wars to be more than it is . . .

 

Just don't turn it in to some kind of SG-1, Babylon 5, Attack of the body snatchers kinda thing . . .

Edited November 9, 2014 by t-darko

[Wolfninjajedi]

because it;s too soon for that. I know SW has been around for awhile but disney has only really just got it. they're gonna start with the classic SW stuff. I imagine they'll move out eventually. but it's like marvel. you gotta have the avengers and the super hero cartoons before Agents of sheild

 

Well never said it had to be live action, but I suppose so yeah.

[Nickious]

If you're interested.

 

http://animeflavor.com/star-wars-rebels-episode-7-out-of-darkness

 

We learn a bit more Sabine's backstory. Apparently she was formally a imperial cadet on the Imperial Academy on Mandalore.

 

Basically, Sabine is questioning whether or not they are actually making a difference and why there some secrets being held back from her. She forces Hera to take her as company to meet off at asteriod base to meet a myseterious contact of their's supply drop.

 

The gang had screwed up on repairs, having their gasline cut unrepaired, so they are stranded on the base with a horde of mutated creatures that they have to fend off against until the Ghost comes to rescue them.

Edited November 10, 2014 by Nickious

[BrianDavion]

Well never said it had to be live action, but I suppose so yeah.

 

well keep in mind I wasn't meaning to imply live action. but rather the feel, Agents of sheild is sort of a show that examines the Marvel cinematic universe from a differnt prespective. it's an intreasting show, but wouldn't have worked leaping right in (honestly I'm not sure a live action SW tv series would be a good idea. they'd have to spend an aweful lot on special effects to get it to look acceptable) . I expect SW'll follow the same formula. they'll eistablish the base, and branch off from there where they will be able to experiment a bit more with style of genre. Using Marvel as an example yet again, Captain America 2, was almost a super hero political thriller, whereas guardians of the galaxy was really more space opera then anything. I could see a LOT of room to experiment in SW too. the zilo beast story arc of clone wars gave us "star wars godzilla" and if you've ever reasd the novel "Kenobi" you've seen an example of a "Star wars Westren"