[class balance] kill two birds with one stone

[Master-Nala]

1) Madness got buffed and buffed for pve balance reasons to the point of being very overtuned in pvp. It now needs a tone down. It's not gonna be a nerf to damage, cause the devs obviously want it to be competitive in pve. Making dots cleanseable again is a good way to nerf for pvp without affecting pve.

 

It's actually pretty easy to tune for PvP without touching PvE. One of the first would be to remove the bonus damage to Force Lightning from Creeping Terror against players. That wasn't necessary, or even asked for. I'm not opposed to a draw down of the damage. Just do it in a smart way that doesn't allow a blatantly OP power.

 

2. CT and CD together do not comprise 50% of madness's damage.

 

Yes, but if you have to reapply Affliction all the time, which doesn't even damage on application, you will lose about that much damage.

 

3. There is counter-play to dot cleansing:

 

a. Stunning the sorc

 

b. Ranging the sorc from the potential cleanse target via knockbacks, pulls etc.

 

c. Putting CT and CD on targets other than a sorc. Hitting cleanse if you see dots on yourself is easy, but it takes considerably more effort to check a teammate's debuffs.

 

d. Baiting a cleanse of dots, followed by a WW on the healer or someone else, which the sorc is then unable to cleanse for the first few seconds due to its CD. This isn't a big deal, but it's there.

 

I'll give you C. and D. But I think you know perfectly well that the two CC option you note are not going to be used to avoid cleansing. They might occasionally have that effect by serendipity, but I don't see that being a conscious choice.

 

4. Obviously, only other sorcs can do it. That means that if the other team doesn't have a sorc, there is no change. Cleanse costs a GCD, and is force-negative (or about force-neutral if heal spec). Are you worried that if both teams run double sorc, then nothing will ever die because they will be constantly cleansing each other? Because that was never a problem before. This point is especially true considering that TTK has been steadily decreasing, and matches rarely go to acid anymore.

 

I worry about DPS sorcerers having the power at all. In PvE, I see why all healer classes allow their DPS specs to cleanse. It's needed to take the pressure off of healers and puts some skill cap into DPS. My fear is that the second we're allowed to cleanse again, people will realize what they should have been doing all along.

 

I don't actually object to Healing Sorcerers being able to cleanse. That would be a nice buff to them. Then maybe they would have some reason to be taken instead of Operatives/Scoundrels. But no one wants just the healers to have cleanse in PvP. Folks want the DPS specs to be able to do it. So they can keep taking their Ops/Scoundrels for heals while leaving a DPS to deal with Madness Sorc/Sins.

 

5. Raises skill cap. Objectively good.

 

Not unless it's more nuanced than simply allowing cleanses to work. I think if cleanses worked on Affliction/Discharge only, then that would actually raise the skill cap. That would be interesting. In the double madness comp you describe that would allow cleanse to lower damage by a fair amount.

 

But then, that's what I get so annoyed by these threads. No one wants it to be reasonable, they just want to go back to the bad old days.

 

6. Slightly buffs the underpowered lightning and healing specs by giving them the ability to once again have a counter to a spec whose users now litter the warzones and arenas. Nerfs an OP spec and buffs UP ones (particularly corruption).

 

As I said above, don't really have a problem with healers having it. Not needed for Lightning and won't change one bit their desirability. You know this.

 

7. Makes no sense that sins, ops, and snipers can remove force dots, but a sorcerer can't.

 

They can. Not sure what you mean. Sorc, Sins, Ops and Snipers all have a purge.

 

8. I'd be willing to compromise and make only CT uncleanseable. And/or increase the CD on cleanse, though idk if that'd be bad for pve. If so, lengthen the base cleanse CD and add CDR to the cleanse talent.

 

To sum up what I said above, either:

 

1) Give cleanse to Sorc/Sage HEALERS only; or

2) Allow Affliction/Discharge to be cleansable by all

 

IN ADDITION TO THE ABOVE,

 

1) Remove the bonus damage to Force Lightning for PvP. Not needed.

2) Consider upping the ICD on Crush Spirit (Spinning Strike reset proc)

Edited October 4, 2014 by Master-Nala

[Master-Nala]

You didn't have an argument. Arguments need warrants and evidence, not just claims. "Two direct damage DPS players don't even give you time to try and heal" is a claim. One that has already been refuted. And speaking of not addressing arguments, I have an 8 point post awaiting your response.

 

Ummm... you never have even, after multiple threads on the subject EVER addressed the ridiculously low cooldown on cleanse. Please don't try to act like you all have high minded argument in favor of this. Because really, it mostly sounds like sour grapes.

 

I have had the opportunity to play every single spec in the game. Not all in ranked, but a fair amount. Balance right now is very good IMO. There are some specs that could use tweaks here and there (both some nerfs to some and buffs to others), but major changes like reverting needed buffs isn't the way to go.

 

EDIT: In all honesty, this is an academic argument since we need to see what 3.0 looks like before we can evaluate what to do.

Edited October 4, 2014 by Master-Nala

[HaoZhao]

I'm fine with cleansing affliction and the DOT from lightning charge, but cleansing creeping terror or crushing darkness is dirty pool and must not be allowed. DOTs attacked to cooldown abilities should remain uncleansable.

[JediMasterSLC]

Ummm... you never have even, after multiple threads on the subject EVER addressed the ridiculously low cooldown on cleanse. Please don't try to act like you all have high minded argument in favor of this. Because really, it mostly sounds like sour grapes.

 

I have had the opportunity to play every single spec in the game. Not all in ranked, but a fair amount. Balance right now is very good IMO. There are some specs that could use tweaks here and there (both some nerfs to some and buffs to others), but major changes like reverting needed buffs isn't the way to go.

 

EDIT: In all honesty, this is an academic argument since we need to see what 3.0 looks like before we can evaluate what to do.

 

Huh? I mentioned that its CD could stand to be longer in my post, and I've mentioned it in the past... I play every class and spec too. Madness is OP. And it wasn't a needed buff. But you're right about 3.0 unfortunately.

Edited October 4, 2014 by JediMasterSLC

[Master-Nala]

Huh? I mentioned that its CD could stand to be longer in my post, and I've mentioned it in the past... I play every class and spec too. Madness is OP. And it wasn't a needed buff. But you're right about 3.0 unfortunately.

 

You're right, you mentioned the cooldown.

 

But Madness most definitely needed the buffs. I think revisionist history has it that Madness was always this great spec. It was viable, but only because the other Sorc specs were terrible. The Sorc class rep quit in protest and it was a hard fight to get the buffs we did.

 

I'll admit that they went a bit far. Not "OMG OP" far, but too far. Like I said, the bonus to Force Lightning from CT was an odd buff and not justified in PvP. Although I remember when it went live and I melted a Deception Sin with it. He seemed so sad.

Edited October 4, 2014 by Master-Nala

[Qwurdilu]

EDIT: In all honesty, this is an academic argument since we need to see what 3.0 looks like before we can evaluate what to do.

 

This is not a discussion about class adjustments, its about meta game.

 

Question is if we tone done dot dmg, or if we make it cleansable. i know that many prefer the latter.

[Qwurdilu]

 

 

Yes, but if you have to reapply Affliction all the time, which doesn't even damage on application, you will lose about that much damage.

 

 

 

This is exact where you go wrong. Youre dmg "loss" isnt actually a loss since you force someone into using a gcd. Instead of cleansing infliction a healer could also cast a bubble. Just because your dmg is not on the scoreboard because it got cleansed, doesnt mean it vanished into nothing. cleansing is just another form of healing.

 

This also translates into beeing a bad idea to only make infliction cleansable since a healer would gimp himself if he removes only that. dmg of one affliction is less than what could be healed per regular heal gcd so why cleansing?

[Adovir]

Nala I truely don't understand your argument, so because one class can cleanse it, it needs protection. If they were made cleansable again it wouldn't buff Ops or mercs but sorc healers and kinda sorcs in general to defending against them selves.

[Hei_Atzfel]

Better idea. Let's put fadeout back up so it's healer only and remove the +25% force lighting buff when CT is up. Fadeout, combined with all the other recent buffs, really is just way too much. And with that +25% buff force lightning (which is SPAMMABLE as well as perma-snares, I might add), hits like a damn truck. For being a sustained damage spec madness can put out surprisingly high burst.

[Master-Nala]

Nala I truely don't understand your argument, so because one class can cleanse it, it needs protection. If they were made cleansable again it wouldn't buff Ops or mercs but sorc healers and kinda sorcs in general to defending against them selves.

 

My argument is you don't let a 4.5 sec cooldown negate powers with longer cooldowns. That's the essence. Cleanse is unreasonable with that cooldown.

 

Now that this is the status quo, you all have the burden of persuasion. Just saying two madness Sorcs are OP doesn't do that. Just saying the damage is too much doesn't show anything. The powers in question take time to apply their damage. It is literally like if Maul took 18 seconds to take effect.

 

Other than annoyance, I don't see why people are fixated on whether they can be cleansed.

Edited October 5, 2014 by Master-Nala

[Master-Nala]

This is not a discussion about class adjustments, its about meta game.

 

Question is if we tone done dot dmg, or if we make it cleansable. i know that many prefer the latter.

 

You haven't shown the necessity of doing either. And neither will happen before 3.0 anyway. It doesn't make sense since new abilities and levels will change the meta game anyway.

Edited October 5, 2014 by Master-Nala

[Master-Nala]

This also translates into beeing a bad idea to only make infliction cleansable since a healer would gimp himself if he removes only that. dmg of one affliction is less than what could be healed per regular heal gcd so why cleansing?

 

Affliction does between 4k-6k damage over 18 seconds. You keep mentioning the double madness set up. Remove two of those and you have at least protected the target from 2 ticks and possibly more if there are more important powers in the attackers priority to use. For a cheap power like cleanse that's instant that's a very fair trade off.

[Qwurdilu]

You haven't shown the necessity of doing either.

You have a very selective form of attention:

Ranked meta changed a lot. Nowadays best thing you can do is run dotspecc and chainmezz healer.

 

to which your answer was:

I don't group ranked. [...] I'm never going to agree to balancing

 

which makes me wonder what you are doing in a thread with the title class balance.

Looks like just another noob trying to defend his smash 2.0

 

Affliction does between 4k-6k damage over 18 seconds. You keep mentioning the double madness set up. Remove two of those and you have at least protected the target from 2 ticks and possibly more if there are more important powers in the attackers priority to use. For a cheap power like cleanse that's instant that's a very fair trade off.

 

another quote that just shows that you have no idea how cleanse really works in actual gameplay.

 

1.) you cant cleanse 2 dots at once in ranked

2.) nobody clear in their mind would waste cleanse for affliction. It heals potential is less than a regular heal and its not worth the risk of using cleanse (you dont want to keep cleanse on cd because you NEED it to dispel CC)

3.) changes nothing about metagameplay because (as mentionend earlier) it doesnt help if the potential cleanse is below average heal gcd. It doesnt matter if you cleanse 4k in 1,5gcd or if you cast a heal in 1,5 seconds.

4k-6k over 18 seconds. So at best you can cleanse 6k. however, nobody will be able to cleanse a dot immediately after it hast been applied. Realisticly its more like 3-5k. Add to that, that you be unlucky and cleanse physical effects other than dmg.

tl;dr: your suggestion changes nothing about the problems madness is currently causing.

 

 

And neither will happen before 3.0 anyway. It doesn't make sense since new abilities and levels will change the meta game anyway.

 

Best before makeb was melee smash, best after makeb was melee smash. Game changed, meta didnt.

Why should we expect a change in meta?

 

 

You better stop talking about things you dont participate in, because it makes you look as dumb as a lion referring about hunting seals.

Edited October 5, 2014 by Qwurdilu

[Master-Nala]

You have a very selective form of attention:

 

You didn't give a reason, you complained about a composition you don't like.

 

tl;dr: your suggestion changes nothing about the problems madness is currently causing.

 

I had a longer response, but your tl;dr is enough to finish.

 

Your suggestion has been vetted and instead of making DoTs cleansable again they added even more uncleasable DoTs. Instead of lowering Sage DoT damage, they increased Sever Force/CT damage while people were complaining about uncleasable DoTs. Why? Because the data showed that it was needed in the broader game.

 

So good luck and we'll see how it pans out in 3.0. Because it isn't happening now.

 

 

You better stop talking about things you dont participate in, because it makes you look as dumb as a lion referring about hunting seals.

 

You should stop whining about classes you have a problem killing. Makes you look like a whiner (no metaphor needed.)

 

EDIT: You can have the last word too, I'm done.

Edited October 5, 2014 by Master-Nala

[Qwurdilu]

You didn't give a reason, you complained about a composition you don't like

 

I admit i got personal, so lets be constructive again pls.

 

I actually gave a reason, but ill try to explain it again since youre not familiar with ranked mechanics.

Madness is capable of doing so much dps on multiple targets, that in a ranked situation, you actually just chainmezz the healer until someone of the other team dies. No special hardswitches needed. Its enough to chainmezz healer, he wont be able to heal through.

This is a problem because it dumbs down the game. Chainmezz healer isnt much of teamwork. otherwise, you had to CC clever in order to kill someone, otherwise youd end up in acid. To put it simpel, its now a damge race instead of clever mechanic. This is not what rated should be, because it will allways favors one classes over others, because its doing slightly more dmg. Yes its my opinion, but for sure most of people playing ranked think so. You cant know. you dont play. So please listen.

 

Above is the same reason why i compare it with smash. Smash had the same issue in ranked, you just werent able to heal against it. Smash didnt need clever cc it just killed the group via damage. Thats what madness does. Thats why most ranked players call madness derp. Its just so ridicolous easy. Chainmezz healer and youre done.

 

A fact is, by making dots cleansable we wont go back to the old days, because more damage was never what this class lacked. Sages were still bad after dots beeing made uncleansable and only got viable when the really good changes for survival were intrudced. 30% reduction when stunned, rootbreaking sprint, 8%healbuff, heal off gcd, 20% armor. those are actually the changes which improved this class for ranked.

Damage was never the problem, even when dots were cleansable, survivability was.

The problem with cleansing is, that people in forums overestimate the use of it very much and whine a lot about it. But in 99% their class has other problems. Snipers dot were and are cleansable and its still viable in ranked dmg. wise. so?

 

I can promise that madness will still be very viable for ranked dmg wise, even if those dots are cleansable.

 

1.) You cant cleanse the moment the dot is applied. on average 20%-50% go through before you can cleanse

2.) Its very rare you cleanse 2 dots an once. Its more like 1 dot, 1 slow/snare whatver. (play op heal and cleanse sniperdots, youll notice) Its not rare you dont even cleanse any dot at all because theyre protectet by multiple slows.

3.) cleanse costs a gcd which could be used for something else. This is the most important point.

cleanse cant negate damage, look at it as a heal. if we do so we need to evaluate how much you can heal with it.

If you take point 1&2 into account you would gimp yourself healing wise if you cleanse 1 affliction. The otherwise dealt damage would be less than what you could otherwise heal withing a gcd. Making only affliction cleansable isnt buff.

 

given you can only remove two effects at a time, it is totally impossible to cleanse every e.g. every crushing darkness you want. And this is why its totally untrue to say cleanse negates all dmg. and its also the reason why making it uncleansable wasnt the buff the class needed. Thats why they worked on other things than dots lately.

 

To be honest, i highly doubt that even with all dots cleansable, sorc couldnt heal through doublemadness given all the circumstances cleanse has.

op heal excells at healing double cleave comps, but even he cant heal double madness. I highly doubt sorc could, even with cleanse.

 

so what do we have now:

Madness dealing too much dmg.

Sorc heal beeing vastly underpowered vs double cleave comp.

 

Why not kill two birds with one stone?

 

Stop everestimate the "loss" of dmg through cleanse. Just because its not on the scoreboard, doesnt mean the pressure isnt real.

 

You should stop whining about classes you have a problem killing. Makes you look like a whiner (no metaphor needed.)

 

EDIT: You can have the last word too, I'm done.

 

just so you know, i have a shadow, assa and sage and this is not whining, its trying to bring in constructive ideas. i hope that you, as a class rep, take a deeper look into the cause and not cancel every argument by claiming cleanse would be too strong without having proof.

 

Thank you.

Edited October 5, 2014 by Qwurdilu

[PloGreen]

I admit i got personal, so lets be constructive again pls.

 

I actually gave a reason, but ill try to explain it again since youre not familiar with ranked mechanics.

Madness is capable of doing so much dps on multiple targets, that in a ranked situation, you actually just chainmezz the healer until someone of the other team dies. No special hardswitches needed. Its enough to chainmezz healer, he wont be able to heal through.

This is a problem because it dumbs down the game. Chainmezz healer isnt much of teamwork. otherwise, you had to CC clever in order to kill someone, otherwise youd end up in acid. To put it simpel, its now a damge race instead of clever mechanic. This is not what rated should be, because it will allways favors one classes over others, because its doing slightly more dmg. Yes its my opinion, but for sure most of people playing ranked think so. You cant know. you dont play. So please listen.

 

Above is the same reason why i compare it with smash. Smash had the same issue in ranked, you just werent able to heal against it. Smash didnt need clever cc it just killed the group via damage. Thats what madness does. Thats why most ranked players call madness derp. Its just so ridicolous easy. Chainmezz healer and youre done.

 

A fact is, by making dots cleansable we wont go back to the old days, because more damage was never what this class lacked. Sages were still bad after dots beeing made uncleansable and only got viable when the really good changes for survival were intrudced. 30% reduction when stunned, rootbreaking sprint, 8%healbuff, heal off gcd, 20% armor. those are actually the changes which improved this class for ranked.

Damage was never the problem, even when dots were cleansable, survivability was.

The problem with cleansing is, that people in forums overestimate the use of it very much and whine a lot about it. But in 99% their class has other problems. Snipers dot were and are cleansable and its still viable in ranked dmg. wise. so?

 

I can promise that madness will still be very viable for ranked dmg wise, even if those dots are cleansable.

 

1.) You cant cleanse the moment the dot is applied. on average 20%-50% go through before you can cleanse

2.) Its very rare you cleanse 2 dots an once. Its more like 1 dot, 1 slow/snare whatver. (play op heal and cleanse sniperdots, youll notice) Its not rare you dont even cleanse any dot at all because theyre protectet by multiple slows.

3.) cleanse costs a gcd which could be used for something else. This is the most important point.

cleanse cant negate damage, look at it as a heal. if we do so we need to evaluate how much you can heal with it.

If you take point 1&2 into account you would gimp yourself healing wise if you cleanse 1 affliction. The otherwise dealt damage would be less than what you could otherwise withing a gcd. Making only affliction cleansable isnt buff.

 

given you can only remove two effects at a time, it is totally impossible to cleanse every e.g. every crushing darkness you want. And this is why its totally untrue to say cleanse negates all dmg. and its also the reason why making it uncleansable wasnt the buff the class needed. Thats why they worked on other things than dots lately.

 

To be honest, i highly doubt that even with all dots cleansable, sorc couldnt heal through doublemadness given all the circumstances cleanse has.

op heal excells at healing double cleave comps, but even he cant heal double madness. I highly doubt sorc could, even with cleanse.

 

so what do we have now:

Madness dealing too much dmg.

Sorc heal beeing vastly underpowered vs double cleave comp.

 

Why not kill two birds with one stone?

 

Stop everestimate the "loss" of dmg through cleanse. Just because its not on the scoreboard, doesnt mean the pressure isnt real.

 

 

 

just so you know, i have a shadow, assa and sage and this is not whining, its trying to bring in constructive ideas. i hope that you, as a class rep, take a deeper look into the cause and not cancel every argument by claiming cleanse would be too strong without having proof.

 

Thank you.

 

Comparing it to smash is ridiculous. Talk about hyperbole.