Bioware: Is Crafting to Win™ intended?

[MeNaCe-NZ]

Unfortunately, there are a number of people who do not agree/recognize that Conquest crafting is a problem. I would like to establish consensus on the issue to ensure any proposed solutions actually solve the problem.

 

If it's consensus you want then you will get nowhere. I myself would never agree to it being broken or requiring fixing. I am happy with it how it is for various reasons. If it weren't so expensive and personally time consuming to do what some guilds have done ( hence why they complain about it afterwards - usually the middle tier guilds who can't keep it up every week, the top tier who do it week in and week out seem to have no issues with it hence their seeming absence from this thread? ) then I would fully support it's needing of a fix but really it's swings and round abouts to me in terms of the whole game as far as crafting is concerned in this case.

 

What I am open to though is moving beyond that and seeing what people have in mind as a ... compromise I believe the word is * watches many posters in this thread die from SHOCK HORROR*.

I can then judge my opinion on the suggested solutions and how they may impact upon the game as awhole as I see it. For example my proposed solution still keep crafting strong but slows it down and it doesn't ruin the market. It could have flaws I've not seen yet but that is what discussion is all about.

 

As I described here, fixing Conquests will not be a simple nor one-off event; it will be iterative and sequential. There is a quote often ascribed to Newton that given an hour you should spend 55 minutes defining the problem and only 5 minutes actually solving it. I believe we are very much in the problem definition phase of Conquests, specifically crafting.

 

And, while I can't quantify specific changes for BioWare to make, I could outline a process for them, which would include backtesting changes as well as frequent tweaks. We have already seen them adjust the Flashpoint rewards. Hopefully, more changes or communication is forthcoming - speaking of which anyone from BioWare want to chime in on this thread?

 

Yes well whilst I've not had the pleasure of meeting this Mr. Newton fellow I do believe he may have existed in a time before the advent of the internet. In more professionals places with people solely interested in reaching the best possible outcome for all involved then yes that would work fine unfortunately this is not the case in this thread as demonstrated by the lack of thought put into many posts ( majority ) and just how long it has gone on in repetition.

 

I mean who is to say there even is a problem? If BW came in right now and said "it's working as intended, we wanted crafting to work this way as big money sink" that would answer this thread and prove there is no problem right in terms of the OP and topic? Yet there clearly is an "issue" as people are annoyed by it regardless of if BW intended it to be this way or not. Also for the record they never FIXED flashpoints imo, they made them worse. That "fix" was bloody lazy. They never fixed the issue they just stopped it being repeatable, they could have fixed the issue and I've even said above in my solution how to do so, they chose not to.

 

So yes based on all that the best way forward imo is to start putting forward ideas to remedy the situation, discuss and adapt those until perhaps a solution comes up that the majority support and we ignore the trolls who won't adapt regardless because this is after all the internet. By that I mean the "no this won't work but I won't say why and won't go for anything other than my idea even though the poster before me clearly showed why it's a bad idea and I haven't addressed those points he/she made" people.

 

This should be a progressive matter, I've kicked it off with my ideas ( which I don't imply are perfect but it's the start ), anyone want to take the ball and carry it forward or shall we sit here bickering through to 100 pages on whether or not something is broken/unbalanced/unfair etc.?

[oofalong]

If it's consensus you want then you will get nowhere.

*snip*

I am not looking for consensus, not universal agreement. Based on other comments by posters in the thread, I think some people have worthwhile perspectives. Thus, I want to ensure I understand their point of view to make sure my point of view is not flawed. In some cases people will still disagree, which is OK.

 

Yes well whilst I've not had the pleasure of meeting this Mr. Newton fellow I do believe he may have existed in a time before the advent of the internet. In more professionals places with people solely interested in reaching the best possible outcome for all involved then yes that would work fine unfortunately this is not the case in this thread as demonstrated by the lack of thought put into many posts ( majority ) and just how long it has gone on in repetition.

 

I mean who is to say there even is a problem? If BW came in right now and said "it's working as intended, we wanted crafting to work this way as big money sink" that would answer this thread and prove there is no problem right in terms of the OP and topic? Yet there clearly is an "issue" as people are annoyed by it regardless of if BW intended it to be this way or not. Also for the record they never FIXED flashpoints imo, they made them worse. That "fix" was bloody lazy. They never fixed the issue they just stopped it being repeatable, they could have fixed the issue and I've even said above in my solution how to do so, they chose not to.

 

So yes based on all that the best way forward imo is to start putting forward ideas to remedy the situation, discuss and adapt those until perhaps a solution comes up that the majority support and we ignore the trolls who won't adapt regardless because this is after all the internet. By that I mean the "no this won't work but I won't say why and won't go for anything other than my idea even though the poster before me clearly showed why it's a bad idea and I haven't addressed those points he/she made" people.

 

This should be a progressive matter, I've kicked it off with my ideas ( which I don't imply are perfect but it's the start ), anyone want to take the ball and carry it forward or shall we sit here bickering through to 100 pages on whether or not something is broken/unbalanced/unfair etc.?

 

First off, I screwed up; the parable was supposedly Albert Einstein's not Isaac Netwon's.

 

And, I tried to shift the focus of this thread with my first post in it way back on page 22. However, new people keep coming in to say Conquest crafting isn't broken.

[Large_Signature]

Gotta love Oofalong's ability to take somebody's argument and very respectfully show them how wrong they are, I personally don't have his patience.

 

[MeNaCe-NZ]

And, I tried to shift the focus of this thread with my first post in it way back on page 22. However, new people keep coming in to say Conquest crafting isn't broken.

 

Again the downfall of internet forums, imagine if it weren't subscribers only! It's hard to keep on top of things when you come into a topic of interest already 30+ pages long and you start reading the first 10 just to note everyone is pretty much repeating exactly what the 20 people before them said none of which is actually progressing things anywhere ( e.g. for me it was saying crafting is broken whilst most ignored the inherent downside to it of cost/time/monotony in gathering ).

 

To your old points I think we need to leave the guild size issue alone. Whilst I see your point I think it's quite far off from the issue most have with crafting and conquests on the whole. My main reasoning whilst it's not of import is that you can recruit anyone from any guild any time. Your small guild doesn't need to be small if you put the time and effort in to growing it and even pirating members from other guilds with bribery and smooth words. I imagine running a highly successful large guild in terms of conquest is pretty daunting and many think it's just "craft and win" but the effort and time of management that must go in to the craft to win must be pretty intense to keep it up week to week ( unless someone has found a blatant money/material cheat? ). I mean you need to organize your members resources as to who gathers and who crafts and set out who gets access to what from guild bank etc. without making sure you get ninja'd. I don't think it's a case of sending out messages saying "right everyone craft and use your own creds/mats to do it or you're out" otherwise it would fail immediately one would think but hey I could be wrong.

 

Anyway as I said as all things can be considered fair and equal in how you recruit and build your guild then guild size shouldn't be a factor for conquest since if you want to own at conquest then building your guild up is half the challenge isn't it? Why should we make it easier and punish the guilds who have put a lot of time and effort into making these crafting, flashpoint running operation exploiting machines?

 

I used to play this crappy text based wrestling sim game where they had rosters ( guilds basically ) where it was illegal to try and snatch players from other rosters at anytime, even discussing topics of possibly moving rosters with other roster members could result in your roster being removed ( stupid concept really considering the size of the game ) and if something like that were in place here then yes I would agree we need multipliers or something to keep it fair but when it's an open market, anything goes right?

 

You then talk of time spent crafting vs other things ... has anyone quantified accurately the time needed in gathering if we did take that in to consideration? That is the planet hopping looking for nodes etc. You don't earn conquest doing that it's utterly monotonous and boring and you probably compete against others farming nodes in the instances too if it's popular? That is the only true "free" way to crafting otherwise you are gathering mats from crew skills or buying from GTN. Whilst gathering isn't overly expensive you are paying a small cost and getting no real return from it and with each war supply cost say 30-40K minimum from what I've noted recently in what I can craft at least ( crystal capacitors and holo's ) from my mats cost that's like 1 - 1.5 million in credits spent or not earned just to get the weekly. Even in terms of pure running gathering missions costs isn't it like 3K to run a grade 9 that may yield you 8 of one mat type you need? so say 10k to run missions to make 1 war supply, plus time spent not crafting whilst those crew members do it? That's still 350K just for weekly with bonus ( exclude SH bonus ). My math be off here as I don't have access to game atm and I use mission discoveries for my gathering as it works out cheaper mat to cost ratio but I still feel I'm in the ballpark.

 

Anyway that devolves a bit back into the why is/isn't crafting broken yada ya etc. so I'll keep away from going too far back there ( until someone else does ).

[Psychopyro]

Look everyone has missed the fact that it is not broken.... People buying cartel packs for mats (be it sell or use the junk in it), is making EA/BioWare a lot LOT of money....Same with OPS passes, and same with PvP Passes... Notice the only really repeatable stuff IS stuff that requires passes or cartel packs for mats... Or sub up.....

 

It all equals more money... And as long as the money is flowing, it won't stop...

 

There is only one way to fix it and it won't happen, that's to cut off the flow of money...

 

EA/BioWare making money = working as intended...

 

Flashpoints were repeatable till they realized that it was not generating income because F2P had no restrictions on running it... Had this been the old days where FP passes were required to run FPs, it would never have been changed.. They would have changed the FP mechanics...

Edited October 2, 2014 by Psychopyro

[MeNaCe-NZ]

Yup and with the amount of people doing it all and running it all spending send money one could draw the conclusion that the majority are fairly happy with it. Forums are generally a vocal minority.

[ivanhedgehog]

They haven't changed ops, flash points, war zones, etc., except to add conquest points to them. The conquest points are a bonus over and above what you always got.

 

OTOH, they did add crafting things specifically for Conquest that generate points and then are valueless.

 

this game has a history of "useless" crafting mats suddenly becoming useful. biometric crystals etc.

http://tor-decorating.com/crafting-prefabs-dark-project/ lists out how those "useless" mats can be used to make dark projects, which are used to make some valuable items. so much for valueless. running a s&v sm gf run or the like give vendor trash if you are lucky enough to actually win the rolls.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

Hmm thanks for that, made me think of something else to research when I get home that could give me even more profits.

[RaithHarth]

Personally they should separate Crafting guilds from PVP and PVE guilds entirely that are in invading the same planet and give them their own sub-category without having to worry about conflict with guilds that are are into Warzones or Flashpoints, vice versa etc.

 

Warzones and Starfighter players should be able to challenge the same worlds as other PVP guilds only.

 

Crafting guilds should challenge other Crafting guilds for the same world only.

 

Flashpoints and Operation guilds should challenge other PVE guilds to the same world only.

Edited October 3, 2014 by RaithHarth

[Oneirophrenia]

Geez you people are fixated on this issue. How's this for a compromise then.

 

Instead of putting arbitrary caps on crafting points, extend the time it takes to complete invasion force components to about 2 hours each, a roughly 3 fold increase from right now. This will certainly slow down the rate they are getting pumped out even with 5 companions going at it and thus, the rate conquest points are being earned through crafting.

 

Alternatively...

 

Invasion supplies would stop granting conquest points once the character hits his/her personal conquest point goal. The only exception would be during crafting week.

 

Not perfect and I'm sure there are more fine tuning involved with both of these options but it's a start.

Edited October 3, 2014 by Oneirophrenia

[ScarletBlaze]

Playing via crafting

[*]1k points per War Supply

 

This is incorrect- War Supplies only give 500 points per War Supply not 1000. (You may get more depending on your stronghold but that would depend on how much someone has decorated their stronghold. Mine is only at 68% as I refuse just to throw things down to get 100% on my stronghold)

 

Invasion Kits give 2000 once and you only get that on one toon.

 

 

http://dulfy.net/2014/08/07/swtor-planetary-conquests-guide/

Edited October 3, 2014 by ScarletBlaze

[MeNaCe-NZ]

This is incorrect- War Supplies only give 500 points per War Supply not 1000. (You may get more depending on your stronghold but that would depend on how much someone has decorated their stronghold. Mine is only at 68% as I refuse just to throw things down to get 100% on my stronghold)

 

Invasion Kits give 2000 once and you only get that on one toon.

 

I think people pick up the 1K because more often than not any guild mainly relying on crafting will take a x2 planet and almost all events have a x2 bonus.

 

I could be wrong but ironically doesn't the ACTAUL crafting event from that page ideally yield less crafted points than all the other events?

 

i.e. you queue up 25 war supplies this week with a x2 you get 25K points basically ( base 500 x 2 for planet bonus = 1000 x 25 = 25000 ). However if you do that during crafting week ( trade emporium ) you would get ( base 250 x 2 = 500 + 250 for the war supply itself = 750 ). It seems to imply invasion force is repeatable but I don't recall if this was the case or not? If so I guess that's better at 4K a pop, good week for making money. Be a good test that week to drop invasion force to 500 and see how the points stacked up against previous weeks ( would still be high though because of the prefab points that week ).

[Jawsers]

This is incorrect- War Supplies only give 500 points per War Supply not 1000.

 

http://dulfy.net/2014/08/07/swtor-planetary-conquests-guide/

 

 

Normally it is 500, but if you are on a planet with a x2 bonus to War Supplies, then it is 1000.

[ScarletBlaze]

Normally it is 500, but if you are on a planet with a x2 bonus to War Supplies, then it is 1000.

 

Okay but if you do pvp aren't there planets that give x2 for that as well therefore giving either the same amount or more conquest points if you like to do pvp and those you can do more than once as well.

[ParagonAX]

Okay but if you do pvp aren't there planets that give x2 for that as well therefore giving either the same amount or more conquest points if you like to do pvp and those you can do more than once as well.

 

I had already answered this question. The amounts in my OP were based on Taris, the planet which gave birth to the original screenshot in the OP.

 

Later on, I added,

We were on Taris, which had 1k per craft. Doesn't matter though, even if it's 500 per craft, it's still 70k points via crafting compared to 9k via FPs (almost EIGHT TIMES difference). In my Taris example it was a SIXTEEN TIMES difference between crafting and doing FPs (in a FLASHPOINT week).

 

I also did assume they do all 3 FP dailies. Please re-read the OP.

 

As I stated, last week I did all the FP dailies every single day on all of my toons, and all of that added together is a drop in the bucket compared to crafting points.

[Brewski]

They haven't changed ops, flash points, war zones, etc., except to add conquest points to them. The conquest points are a bonus over and above what you always got.

 

OTOH, they did add crafting things specifically for Conquest that generate points and then are valueless.

 

I did want to point out that the points I get from crafting are not actually useless. I turn them into DPs which sell at cost, but since I get a lot of crafting crits on the character in question, I still turn a decent profit.

 

Now all told, GSH crafting netted me well over 100 million in the first month, and I wasn't particularly militant about it. Others cleared a lot more than me in the same time frame. Now that it's stabilized, crafting for GSH is now on the "crits net you a profit, no-crits break even" for me, so for profit I'm back to my original crafting instead.

 

Are those other forms of crafting more productive? Yes, but they don't net you the points. So for me, crafting is a choice week to week of making money and some conquest points, or making gobs of money with no conquest points. I usually base my decision on how many CP I need to finish my personal conquest week to week.

 

So to your point I would counter that crafting still nets you money if done right.

[NrDLeipe]

i dont understand why people get so in to this if a guild wanna burn 500m on worthless stuff let them they can only do it so many times till all the fuel is gone. wich will open up possibilitys for other guilds to take over.

 

Our guild aims for the top 2-10 cause it doesnt matter where you finish for the rewards and in all fairness number 1 gets jack**** aswell compared to the money they have burned, ( you have orbital strike on a planet + you can use a mount on a useless planet ) Big guilds prob alrdy got there ships complete so the orbital is pointless alrdy.

 

The only real issue imo is that they didnt seperate big guilds from small cause there is no competition between 500 members and 20, the 500 just need to zerk to fps etc and have an easy win aswell, crafting kinda is the only thing that let the smaller guilds compete to that atm but ye they need to blow a ******** of credits for as i see it a big bag of fluff

[TheWookiee]

Last night on the fleet general chat, a guild was spamming to recruit crafters only capable of putting up a high number conquest points. The guild was offering to pay anywhere from 2 to 5 credits per conquest point.

 

It's funny, when I thought a bout mercenary work in this game, crafting was the last way I thought it would be done.

[ParagonAX]

Last night on the fleet general chat, a guild was spamming to recruit crafters only capable of putting up a high number conquest points. The guild was offering to pay anywhere from 2 to 5 credits per conquest point.

 

It's funny, when I thought a bout mercenary work in this game, crafting was the last way I thought it would be done.

 

This is an inevitable and sad reality with the current system

[Psychopyro]

Last night on the fleet general chat, a guild was spamming to recruit crafters only capable of putting up a high number conquest points. The guild was offering to pay anywhere from 2 to 5 credits per conquest point.

 

It's funny, when I thought a bout mercenary work in this game, crafting was the last way I thought it would be done.

 

Funny thing is, that would not even cover cost for some of the mats.... This week I'm sitting at a bit over 500k.... 2.5m don't cover mats... at all...

[ParagonAX]

Funny thing is, that would not even cover cost for some of the mats.... This week I'm sitting at a bit over 500k.... 2.5m don't cover mats... at all...

 

But some people might find the prospect of crafting for points and getting paid for it rewarding.

 

Plus, being in that "crafters-only-conquest-guild", they are likely to get the title for winning the planet.

 

Plus, the GM/officers in that guild will likely sell spots in the guild to people willing to pay for a Conqueror of ________ title. This has already started happening on certain servers.

 

So because of Crafting to Win™, conquest has just became a giant Pay to Win system with people who know how to game the system earning large profits and winning planets, while other guilds who actually do activities in game (wz, ops, gsf, etc.) getting screwed.

 

Truly a marvel of system design.

[ikinai]

But some people might find the prospect of crafting for points and getting paid for it rewarding.

 

Plus, being in that "crafters-only-conquest-guild", they are likely to get the title for winning the planet.

 

Plus, the GM/officers in that guild will likely sell spots in the guild to people willing to pay for a Conqueror of ________ title. This has already started happening on certain servers.

 

So because of Crafting to Win™, conquest has just became a giant Pay to Win system with people who know how to game the system earning large profits and winning planets, while other guilds who actually do activities in game (wz, ops, gsf, etc.) getting screwed.

 

Truly a marvel of system design.

 

Again, why nerf crafting? Why not make the other ones equal to crafting? Why is the first inclination to nerf something instead of making the other things the same?

[Psychopyro]

Aside from the money grab aspect.... the problem with crafting is that it can be done AFK, shoot really not logged in at all.... Just log in to collect the points... that is the problem...

 

The easiest and best way to fix it... up the points on crafting a bit, but you must be ONLINE for the crafting timer to run....

[ParagonAX]

Again, why nerf crafting? Why not make the other ones equal to crafting? Why is the first inclination to nerf something instead of making the other things the same?

 

I had not called for a nerf to crafting for the sake of nerfing. The goal is to make crafting in-line with other activities. Whether BW does this by nerfing crafting, or buffing other activities is not my concern.

[ikinai]

I had not called for a nerf to crafting for the sake of nerfing. The goal is to make crafting in-line with other activities. Whether BW does this by nerfing crafting, or buffing other activities is not my concern.

 

That's all I've seen said, no one coming up with a solution to make sure crafters don't get shut out, just a bunch of crying about how it's unfair.