Sorcerers : Breaking news

[KeyboardNinja]

I think the point of this thread was lightning is the worst spec in game

 

AP Powertech says "hi"! Also Rage Jugg.

 

Lightning is actually a fantastic spec, it's just not the same easy-mode numbers that Madness is. I agree that it's under-performing in PvP, so don't jump on me for that one, but it's hardly the *worst* spec in the game. Lethality Operative is far worse in PvP, and generally also worse in PvE. Lightning has the highest four second burst in the game (yes, higher than Carnage), and if they're whitebarred when they execute that burst, it is uncounterable outside of defensive CDs. The problem with the spec (in PvP) is that this burst requires some long cooldowns to execute, and if you're not already whitebarred, it's pretty easy to stun your way out of it.

 

In PvE, I run Lightning for three of the five fights in NiM DF (I respec halfway through Brontes, so it's really half-n-half), and three of the five fights in NiM DP. I'm not sure I would call it the "worst spec in the game" when I'm choosing to run it in preference to Madness (which I can play at a very high level) on the hardest PvE content in the game.

[Master-Nala]

Lightning isn't harder than Madness KBN. It's just slower and too dependent on casts.

[KeyboardNinja]

Lightning isn't harder than Madness KBN. It's just slower and too dependent on casts.

 

Actually lightning is quite a bit faster (much burstier; also higher APM, if that's what you meant). No question that it's too dependent on interruptable casts for PvP. I'd love to see TB go uninterruptable. Still not guaranteed burst, but it would force players to use their stuns to counter it. Madness would still be better, but Lightning would have a (minor) place.

 

I actually do think that Lightning is quite a bit harder than Madness, at least if you want to get the most out of it. In PvP, you have to spend a lot more time being very creative with your snares and roots, while Madness can just DoT and run. In PvE, Lightning is far more sensitive to timing errors, APM-affecting delays, is more affected by mechanical issues forcing target swaps or short-lived adds, etc. (despite the fact that target swapping in Madness is obviously awful) In Madness, the worst thing you can do in PvE is mistime your clip. (well, you could also spam your DoTs, but who does that?) Even then, the difference is only about 8% of your max DPS. With Lightning, you can screw yourself out of a major proc if you just do things in slightly the wrong order, or just slightly too slow. Heck, you can lose 8% of your max DPS by failing to utilize Polarity Shift appropriately (which, in a real fight, doesn't necessarily mean "on cooldown").

Edited September 24, 2014 by KeyboardNinja

[xX-Archangel-Xx]

AP Powertech says "hi"! Also Rage Jugg.

 

Lightning is actually a fantastic spec, it's just not the same easy-mode numbers that Madness is. I agree that it's under-performing in PvP, so don't jump on me for that one, but it's hardly the *worst* spec in the game. Lethality Operative is far worse in PvP, and generally also worse in PvE. Lightning has the highest four second burst in the game (yes, higher than Carnage), and if they're whitebarred when they execute that burst, it is uncounterable outside of defensive CDs. The problem with the spec (in PvP) is that this burst requires some long cooldowns to execute, and if you're not already whitebarred, it's pretty easy to stun your way out of it.

 

In PvE, I run Lightning for three of the five fights in NiM DF (I respec halfway through Brontes, so it's really half-n-half), and three of the five fights in NiM DP. I'm not sure I would call it the "worst spec in the game" when I'm choosing to run it in preference to Madness (which I can play at a very high level) on the hardest PvE content in the game.

Ap powertechs at least has 0 casting but flamethrower, i got interrupted 8/10 in lightning, and my damage output is really low ( not full brut yet with my sorc byw)

[KeyboardNinja]

Ap powertechs at least has 0 casting but flamethrower, i got interrupted 8/10 in lightning, and my damage output is really low ( not full brut yet with my sorc byw)

 

Casting is not the problem. If it was, you would be complaining more about Madness.

[xX-Archangel-Xx]

Casting is not the problem. If it was, you would be complaining more about Madness.

 

casting is a problem, 2 sec TB, and ur target pop god mode or shroud, u waste ur cd, and u will be deathmarked like terrorists. Make TB hit hard like hetaseeker, istant, ofc without auto crit

[KeyboardNinja]

casting is a problem, 2 sec TB, and ur target pop god mode or shroud, u waste ur cd, and u will be deathmarked like terrorists. Make TB hit hard like hetaseeker, istant, ofc without auto crit

 

Instant TB would be amazing. Probably OP, but still amazing. Removing the auto-crit would not be amazing. First off, it would eliminate the consistency of our burst in PvP, which nukes the only positive aspect of the spec relative to Madness. Second, it would make force management impossible in PvE. Most people don't realize this because they don't play the spec with an ideal APM, but if you're actually doing things correctly, you can and will run out of force in Lightning in a sustained PvE encounter without the auto-crit from TB. This is easy enough to test by simply removing Affliction from your rotation.

 

Casting really, really isn't the only problem though. Madness spends a crudload of time casting, and you don't seem to feel there is a problem. Arsenal spends more time casting than Lightning does (two instants every 15 seconds, vs Lightning's one every 11 and one every 22), and has longer casts on average (Lightning doesn't have any cast >1.8 seconds).

 

The problem is the powers which are casted are the ones which are fundamental to our strengths as a class. Specifically, Thundering Blast. Keeping our spam power a cast (Lightning Strike) makes total sense, but Thundering Blast is the fundamental reason to be in Lightning Spec. Making it instant would be awesome (increasing the cooldown by 1.5 seconds would help fix the rotation timing issues this would naively cause). Making it uninterruptable would also help a lot, since then it would be uncounterable (outside of stuns) except by knights and shadows, and then only with long cooldowns.

[xX-Archangel-Xx]

Instant TB would be amazing. Probably OP, but still amazing. Removing the auto-crit would not be amazing. First off, it would eliminate the consistency of our burst in PvP, which nukes the only positive aspect of the spec relative to Madness. Second, it would make force management impossible in PvE. Most people don't realize this because they don't play the spec with an ideal APM, but if you're actually doing things correctly, you can and will run out of force in Lightning in a sustained PvE encounter without the auto-crit from TB. This is easy enough to test by simply removing Affliction from your rotation.

 

Casting really, really isn't the only problem though. Madness spends a crudload of time casting, and you don't seem to feel there is a problem. Arsenal spends more time casting than Lightning does (two instants every 15 seconds, vs Lightning's one every 11 and one every 22), and has longer casts on average (Lightning doesn't have any cast >1.8 seconds).

 

The problem is the powers which are casted are the ones which are fundamental to our strengths as a class. Specifically, Thundering Blast. Keeping our spam power a cast (Lightning Strike) makes total sense, but Thundering Blast is the fundamental reason to be in Lightning Spec. Making it instant would be awesome (increasing the cooldown by 1.5 seconds would help fix the rotation timing issues this would naively cause). Making it uninterruptable would also help a lot, since then it would be uncounterable (outside of stuns) except by knights and shadows, and then only with long cooldowns.

Make tb passing through enemies ? Like the tyrans one ? qould be AWESOME

[KeyboardNinja]

Make tb passing through enemies ? Like the tyrans one ? qould be AWESOME

 

Cool, but a bit gimmicky. That would turn Thundering Blast into something a bit like Dual Saber Throw. Unfortunately, actually taking advantage of the AoE effect attached to DST in practice requires two things: very close range to your target (to decrease the distance you must move to control the angle) and high mobility (to allow you to move that distance fluidly). Sorcs have neither of those things as a low-mobility ranged class.

[cs_zoltan]

Arsenal spends more time casting than Lightning does (two instants every 15 seconds, vs Lightning's one every 11 and one every 22).

 

Only if you are planning on overheating or don't use your cooldowns (hint: Rapid Shots and Power Surge).

[Ycoga]

Ap powertechs at least has 0 casting but flamethrower, i got interrupted 8/10 in lightning, and my damage output is really low ( not full brut yet with my sorc byw)

 

Weird. I usually (almost always) get top damage in WZ using telekinetics.

[Ycoga]

Cool, but a bit gimmicky. That would turn Thundering Blast into something a bit like Dual Saber Throw. Unfortunately, actually taking advantage of the AoE effect attached to DST in practice requires two things: very close range to your target (to decrease the distance you must move to control the angle) and high mobility (to allow you to move that distance fluidly). Sorcs have neither of those things as a low-mobility ranged class.

 

User force speed to reposition, especially in lightning spec.

[xX-Archangel-Xx]

Weird. I usually (almost always) get top damage in WZ using telekinetics.

Maybe its me, but as lightning i hardly reach 600k, as madness i do 800k.850k without even break a sweat

[xX-Archangel-Xx]

Cool, but a bit gimmicky. That would turn Thundering Blast into something a bit like Dual Saber Throw. Unfortunately, actually taking advantage of the AoE effect attached to DST in practice requires two things: very close range to your target (to decrease the distance you must move to control the angle) and high mobility (to allow you to move that distance fluidly). Sorcs have neither of those things as a low-mobility ranged class.

 

well we have force speed, and dst hit all in 30 meters range, tb woulb hit all, but only in his own way, i mean if u are 2 meters away of it u would be fine.

Thay need to make TB/turbulence something able to be feared from players, something to " oh **** TB incoming, run for ur lives", or well a sort of, not a laughable spell to interrupt

Edited September 25, 2014 by xX-Archangel-Xx

[MusicRider]

Depends whether the discussion is about TK in PVE or in PVP.

 

For pve it merely needs a bit of a dps buff but in my opinion being the bursty spec it should still parse under balance (or at least the same given that many people think that TK being more immobile is a big hinder, which is true but not in all fights). At the moment I think the difference is a bit that makes balance usable in pretty much every situation even in the ones that in theory TK should be the spec to go. Other than a bit of dps boost TK plays smoothly and nicely.

 

Regarding pvp, things are more complex. How do you provide a ranged class mobility and burst? Well, for start I think that weaken mind should be uncleansable in TK also as the crit of Turbulence depends on it. Secondly, mind crush should be immune to pushback. The problem is that as turrets they still have poor damage mitigation and in fact poorer kiting tools than balance. That is the area that should be improved. Either they have to be more mobile with slightly better kiting tools or better hold your ground abilities. I don't think the solution is touching the cast time of Turbu which will make the class OP.

[MusicRider]

well we have force speed, and dst hit all in 30 meters range, tb woulb hit all, but only in his own way, i mean if u are 2 meters away of it u would be fine.

Thay need to make TB/turbulence something able to be feared from players, something to " oh **** TB incoming, run for ur lives", or well a sort of, not a laughable spell to interrupt

 

TB is feared by players, it is interrupted or countered cause there is nothing to laugh about it. Not only it is one of the hardest hitting abilities doing internal damage so works in cases that other high hitting abilities don't, but also sets up an instant second attack which if crit also hits pretty hard.

[KeyboardNinja]

TB is feared by players, it is interrupted or countered cause there is nothing to laugh about it. Not only it is one of the hardest hitting abilities doing internal damage so works in cases that other high hitting abilities don't, but also sets up an instant second attack which if crit also hits pretty hard.

 

People forget about this, but it's true. If I have Recklessness up I can almost guarantee that crit, and it's an AoE. So you're talking about the old auto-crit Smash on up to five targets…casted instantly from range…and setup by a 8-9k auto-crit. That's intense. That's really really intense. No other class in the game can do 20k guaranteed damage (with 10k of that being AoE) in what is effectively a single hit (since Chain Lightning is an instant and TB is a cast).

[Master-Nala]

Casting really, really isn't the only problem though. Madness spends a crudload of time casting, and you don't seem to feel there is a problem. Arsenal spends more time casting than Lightning does (two instants every 15 seconds, vs Lightning's one every 11 and one every 22), and has longer casts on average (Lightning doesn't have any cast >1.8 seconds).

 

Agreed. But outside of an interrupt, Force Lightning can be clipped midway and you still did your damage and can still move and react without killing your damage. That's what I think people dislike about Lightning. At least that's my problem with the spec. Having 4 powers in your rotation that requires casts makes me want to drink.

[xX-Archangel-Xx]

Agreed. But outside of an interrupt, Force Lightning can be clipped midway and you still did your damage and can still move and react without killing your damage. That's what I think people dislike about Lightning. At least that's my problem with the spec. Having 4 powers in your rotation that requires casts makes me want to drink.

 

so, what about make LS an istant cast whne reck or polarity is up ?