Don't break the CC

[Pagy]

You forgot 4: DPS opening with all of their most powerful attacks and/or not using their threat dumps, making it impossible to gain/hold aggro.

 

I blame the CC breaking, and DPS not being aware of their own threat generation on the shift to tactical flashpoints. While it's safe to say that -most- DPSers, and ALL good DPSers are aware of CC and threat generation, there has been a rise in the people who just seem to want to faceroll through everything, without regard to threat or CC.

 

And yes, I just called DPSers who don't use their threat dumps in PVE content bad. Get over it, and learn your class.

it goes both ways.

 

i used the exact same combo to open, i've done it hundreds of times, if not thousands at this point. why is it that some tanks lose agro right away and others dont?

 

as a dpser, its hard to gauge how bad the tank is; and while agro is a shared responsibility, you need to feel each other out first which does mean pulling a few times.

Edited August 18, 2014 by Pagy

[Pagy]

That one I am always a bit torn about. I don't start with my taunts so I can generally react quick enough to get agro after they do.

They shouldn't open full force but that one is at least able to be dealt with.

you can open at full force as long as the tank isnt bad. that said if the tank is bad, its up to me to trim dps down.

[ninjonxb]

you can open at full force as long as the tank isnt bad. that said if the tank is bad, its up to me to trim dps down.

 

Not necessarily.

If the DPS is way over geared and the tank meets minimum gear requirements. The tank will need a few moments to get agro before the DPS lashes out.

[slafko]

Is it just me or are do people no longer understand "Don't break the CC"?

 

I've noticed a LOT recently that people just bash away and wonder why the group gets butchered regardless of how often you explain about CC.

 

Anyone else noticed an increase in this?

 

Some people have no idea what CC is. And, to make matters worse, some people have level 50+ characters and don't have any concept of a soft CC from stealth.

 

I had a Shadow in BoI several weeks ago. Level 52(!) and obviously the first character. I mark a mob and ask the Shadow to CC. The guy uses Force Lift. Okay... Next skippable mob and I mark again but this time explain that he needs to CC from Stealth. And whaddaya know - he enters stealth 10 seconds later. My heart jumps of joy.

 

 

 

 

 

Force Lift.

 

 

 

 

Edited August 18, 2014 by slafko

[Malastare]

I think people just don't pay attention. One person complained "Well then mark your CC." My reply was something along the lines of "Just pay attention. Have you not been playing this game long enough to know basic tactics?" No reply.

 

While there is some truth in this, an unmarked CC is a pretty big risk. Some CC are more visible than others. Even if we're talking about Whirlwind, I've broken my share of them because people used CC without marking due to:

 

1. Already being in the middle of a cast before the person used their CC. (A marker would have let me know of their plans). I've even had people CC targets that are currently within my active AoE (Death from Above, Force Storm, etc) and complain about me breaking CC by not realizing that they had CCed a target.
   
2. Not being able to see the CCed mob because of a crowd (a marker would have made me aware of it)
   
3. Someone else pushing/pulling another mob into AoE range of the CCed mob (A marker might have made people think twice about the push/pull direction)
   
4. Hitting a CCed mob with AoE that is centered on me --like the Sniper Pulse-- and hitting a mob that was CCed behind me (a marker would have let me know to pick a different place to set up)
   
5. Not noticing a CC in the middle of other effects. While some CC might be easy to see, a concussion missile or sleep darted mob in the middle of a group isn't easy to spot from 30m. (A marker would give me the hint that there is something worth checking in the area)
   

 

I've been in a number of FP groups that play fast-and-loose with CCs and leave them unmarked. In those cases, there's no actual worry about the CC, its just used as a delaying tactic. If you actually want the CC, it's best to get it marked so its visible and everyone knows what your plans are. Otherwise, I'll assume you don't actually care about it.

[Tsillah]

Oh it's more than CC.

 

Probably because people are running around doing sm ops in 180 commendation gear they feel no need to worry about cc, kill orders, staying out of circles or using interrupts.

 

Seems like a typical DPS issue. Oh, did I mention auto-target?

[Halinalle]

I know people hate Marauders but this is getting very annoying.

 

Every time I CC a droid as Marauder/Sniper someone (usually Sorc or Jugg) makes sure droid doesn't stay CC'd for longer than 2 seconds.

Edited August 18, 2014 by Halinalle

[Your_Ad_Here]

 

I did a Heroic 4 with my Commando DPS, and another player (Scoundrel, maybe?) with a CC. We used chat to decide on CC's. And, the other players were careful not to break the CCs. That was a smooth, and enjoyable, run.

 

 

I think this is important, conversation.

 

Sorry ... I'm not psychic. How do I know who you are CCing if you don't say? I never played all the classes so I don't know all the hallmarks of a CC yet or what does what.

 

If I break CC, I always apologize and make sure I don't do it again. But it's not always the DPS's fault. If the CC just flings CC around everywhere, not marking targets, then gets a roid afterwards .... well ... then they suck IMO.

 

When I play with my sister and husband (both not used to the game much), I tell them "I will tank mob X. Sis, stun the mob Y. Dear, take out the other mob then come help me burn down mob X" ... etc.

 

Sure, it's not always perfect. But the point is that we shared a strategy. And 8/10 times it works well.

[branmakmuffin]

While there is some truth in this, an unmarked CC is a pretty big risk. Some CC are more visible than others.

If I am in a group with an Agent or a Marauder, I know to look for Slice/Disable Droid. With a Sorc, Whirlwind, with an Op or an Assassin, Sleep Dart/Mind Trap (and all the various Republic equivalents). It's simply a matter of knowing what other classes can do and paying attention. "You didn't mark your CC" really means "I have no clue what other classes can do in terms of CC and/or I'm not really paying attention to what the other players are doing anyway." If I'm in a group and someone CCs when I think it's not really necessary, I still "honor" their CC.

[Thoronmir]

Is it just me or are do people no longer understand "Don't break the CC"?

What do you mean "no longer"? Did they ever?

 

I found myself typing the same CC message at the start of FPs and Heroic-4s so often, I saved it as a document on my computer so I can just copy/paste into chat:

 

"I mark my CC target with the Gold Star. Please do not attack that target or use AOE near it."

 

In most PUGs, they still break my CC. Which is why the copy/paste approach is so handy ... I can easily repeat the request before (and after) every fight.

 

Honestly, one of my favorite questions (no sarcasm here) to get in a PUG is "What is CC." That means I have a chance to enlighten a player and make his world better with the understanding and proper appreciation of CC.

 

I recently got that question from a Trooper while working a Sage alt through Tattooine. We were doing the Heroic-4 ... oh, what's it called ... the one where you kill all the Black Sun guys and rescue the prisoners. Oh, you know what I mean! Anyway ... it took about 2 minutes for me to explain the plan (including my CC and that I would use the Blue Shield to mark Qyzen's tank target and the Red Flame to mark the guy I wanted the Trooper and his comp to tackle). Two-manning an on-level H4 ain't always easy, but this time it went smooth as silk. The Trooper left with a true appreciation for CC (at least he said he did).

 

I'm in too good a mood today to recount all the times I've begged an FP group to let me CC only to be told, "We don't need it," then we all wipe.

 

EDIT:

 

TL;DR: Give me 10 seconds to mark targets before each fight and no will die during the mission.

 

EDIT REDUX:

 

I keep the three markers I use (Gold Star for my CC, Blue Shield for tank target, and Red Flame for DPS target) keybound, so all I have to do is target the mob and hit F8 (or F7 or F6, as the case may be). If someone else has a CC to use, I ask that they use any of the other markers to mark their target.

Edited August 18, 2014 by Thoronmir

[Nmyownworld]

I think this is important, conversation.

 

When I play with my sister and husband (both not used to the game much), I tell them "I will tank mob X. Sis, stun the mob Y. Dear, take out the other mob then come help me burn down mob X" ... etc.

 

Sure, it's not always perfect. But the point is that we shared a strategy. And 8/10 times it works well.

I agree. In that group I did, we always decided on who would CC what in group chat, so everyone knew what was going on. I'd CC one gold, the other player CC'd the other gold, and all four of us in the group would take down the standards and silvers without breaking the golds' CC. It was a lot of fun.

 

Too often in groups (Heroics and FPs), there's little to no communication. The fight is set up for a Trinity, so how can four strangers (I don't group a lot so I rarely interact with the same players repeatedly) fight effectively without saying something? Not long speeches, just something as simple as, "Will CC gold on right."

Edited August 18, 2014 by Nmyownworld

[Malastare]

If I am in a group with an Agent or a Marauder, I know to look for Slice/Disable Droid. With a Sorc, Whirlwind [...] If I'm in a group and someone CCs when I think it's not really necessary, I still "honor" their CC.

 

I will try to whenever I can, but a human-sized, sleep-darted mob in a crowd at 30m isn't going to catch my eye. To the guy who sleep-darted them, it is blindingly obvious. To a sniper surveying the field at 30m, I'm not always going to inspect every shape near my target to see if its slumping before I toss a grenade.

 

Taking a half second to mark the CC would prevent that.

 

For the case where a mob is off by itself, yeah, its easy to spot. And if I'm actively targeting a mob, its easy to spot. However, for other mobs in the crowd, especially in the middle of a bunch of particle effects, just because its easy for you to spot doesn't mean its easy to spot from all perspectives.

 

If you care about the CC: Mark it.

[DarthJimilingus]

Is it just me or are do people no longer understand "Don't break the CC"?

 

I've noticed a LOT recently that people just bash away and wonder why the group gets butchered regardless of how often you explain about CC.

 

Anyone else noticed an increase in this?

The issue I notice is people recognize the CC and don't attack the CCed directly but rather CC is broken due to AOE attacks on the other enemies. i.e. Missles from Bounty Hunter. Just an opinion though. Could be people out there who do whatever they want anyway.

[Thoronmir]

If you care about the CC: Mark it.

Amen, brother! Preach it!

 

And I may have exaggerated when I said 10 seconds to mark targets, but I was trying to err on the "Oh, this is taking too long!" side. It usually takes much less time than that. But there's always some time spent making sure all the mobs who heal are getting CC'd, etc.

 

I'll never get the thinking of players who don't want the group to CC (much less mark targets). Most complaints I've seen suggest that CCing slows down the group. A few seconds to mark CC targets before a fight can save us 30+ seconds during a fight. It can save us from all having to rest/recharge after each fight. It is much faster.

 

EDIT re: AOE:

 

This goes along with what has been said about knowing what other classes can do. Just as I appreciate it when the Trooper knows my CC, I assume he appreciates the effort I make to CC targets on the edge to better avoid his AOE. But if the target is marked, it makes it easier for classes with AOE to use them effectively without breaking the CC.

Edited August 18, 2014 by Thoronmir

[Thompsons]

I blame power leveling in Kuat Drive Yards. The boosting and lack of tactical variety creates bad habits. Also, the environment ensures that other members of the group you're in cover your mistakes, or try to. The overall result is a sterile learning environment. Even single-player is better if you, for instance, do some Hero 4's solo. That requires some tactics.

 

Less subjectively:

 

1. CC's are very useful if you're pugging a group and, for instance, find yourself in a hard mode flash point with a tank who hasn't broken 30K in hit points yet and a DPS who was lower, as happened to me this weekend. My HEALER had 4K more hitpoints than the tank.

 

2. I had a DPS target somebody I'd stunned -- four times in a row in the same flashpoint. Not AOEs or anything like that. He targeted and leaped to the guy I'd just stunned. I told him about the problem after watching three times — and he did it again. That's not forgetfulness or being new. That's a habit.

 

3. Had a guy who got us all killed once. Revived, hadn't even healed all the way up yet and he attacked again. While we were all lying there dead a second time, he at least apologized said he was pressed for time. I replied "Then we don't have time to die, do we?" No problems after that.

 

When you're with people you know, you can skip cc's. When you're with people you don't know, not so much.

[LordArtemis]

In games where no chat bubbles exist it is more common to see CC broken IMO. Unless you use Vent or some alternative, communication held to chat is not a good way to identify CC.....icons do help though.

[Thoronmir]

When you're with people you know, you can skip cc's. When you're with people you don't know, not so much.

So true.

 

But it always seems that the players I meet in PUGs are the most ignorant of or (just as often) actually adverse to using CC. It's all about "speed" ... or, rather, the perception of speed. In my experience, too many players equate fighting as progress. As long as they are shooting their virtual gun or swinging their virtual saber, we're doing good. Pausing long enough for me to press three buttons on my keyboard to target-mark before a fight "only slows us down." And I've given up even trying to CC in a PUG without marking. No one recognizes or respects the CC these days. As much as I enjoy CCing (more than I enjoy doing damage), in PUGs, I keep Force Lift in my pocket for when things break down entirely and I need a Hail Mary.

 

When I run with friends, we never have to discuss CC. Everyone knows my marking system and we all rock along. So, even though we may need it less, we use it more efficaciously.

[Thompsons]

... it always seems that the players I meet in PUGs are the most ignorant of or (just as often) actually adverse to using CC. It's all about "speed" ... or, rather, the perception of speed.

 

Exactly. They seem to be looking for kills and action, not at successfully completing the mission. I've never understood the excitement of killing bots. The coms and achievements at the end are what I'm looking for. The OBJECTIVE can often be achieved without striking a blow and can be accomplished faster with a few judicious cc's. . Yet so many players don't care.

[Drockter]

This is why I go in to each Pug match and announce my CC marker. Sometimes it works, others not... More often than the intentional break, I see the unintentional AOE that catches the CC in its radius.

 

To that end, it would also be helpful for the Tank to grab agro and move away from a CC'd opponent.

[errant_knight]

Is it just me or are do people no longer understand "Don't break the CC"?

 

I've noticed a LOT recently that people just bash away and wonder why the group gets butchered regardless of how often you explain about CC.

 

Anyone else noticed an increase in this?

 

I think it's a natural by-product of 'tactical' fps, which are the opposite of tactical and more of a group Leroy Jenkins. People who sometimes do no other fps or ops to become acquainted with better, more strategic methods, are learning some horrific habits while replacing story content with kdy grinds. I find the desire to do that inexplicable, but that's beside the point. There was a thread a bit ago where people were complaining about 'hardcore raiders' using cc's at all, lol.

Edited August 18, 2014 by errant_knight

[Aletheos]

Is it just me or are do people no longer understand "Don't break the CC"?

 

I've noticed a LOT recently that people just bash away and wonder why the group gets butchered regardless of how often you explain about CC.

 

Anyone else noticed an increase in this?

 

I wonder where in this game, aside from soloing heroic quests, you actually need to use a CC in a group content? (No, I'm not talking about PvP, where it's obvious.) In HM DP, perhaps? But even there it is a matter of convenience, not a necessity...

[Aletheos]

As a tank my 3 biggest annoyances.

 

1. DPS breaking CC

 

2. DPS using knock backs when I am trying to get agro

 

3. DPS not understanding what line of sight pull means.

 

Your second point made me laugh, for that's exactly my experience with every other SIN tank I have grouped with lately. Yep, a knock back as an opener! And when you whisper them and ask them not to use it, they get offended. Thank god one can use a tank companion for most flashpoints these days.

[Darth_Wicked]

Your second point made me laugh, for that's exactly my experience with every other SIN tank I have grouped with lately. Yep, a knock back as an opener! And when you whisper them and ask them not to use it, they get offended. Thank god one can use a tank companion for most flashpoints these days.

 

Wither / Time Slow is overrated. The stun that accompanies Overload / Force Wave to weak and standard enemies generates far higher threat.

 

Every Assassin / Shadow worth his salt knows that.

Edited August 18, 2014 by Darth_Wicked

[well]

Some people have no idea what CC is. And, to make matters worse, some people have level 50+ characters and don't have any concept of a soft CC from stealth.

 

I had a Shadow in BoI several weeks ago. Level 52(!) and obviously the first character. I mark a mob and ask the Shadow to CC. The guy uses Force Lift. Okay... Next skippable mob and I mark again but this time explain that he needs to CC from Stealth. And whaddaya know - he enters stealth 10 seconds later. My heart jumps of joy.

 

 

 

 

 

Force Lift.

 

 

 

 

 

You just want to run one of theses chrs:eek:

 

[well]

It can be irritating when your CC gets broke but it happens. You just say frell it and drive on.