why is the SWTOR community so against "pay to win"

[Elminster_cs]

whenever i try to suggest giving any kind of non-aesthetic purpose to spending real money, people in the community put their earplugs in and rant about it being "pay to win". as far as i see it, the CM should be used to bypass work, but so long as someone can work hard for something just as powerful, then it isn't "pay to win" as the community rants about.

 

a perfect example that is actually a reality is the CM crystals. they are available at level 10 and claimable in the collections tab, yet someone can craft or buy a crystal of equal power at level 50, this is my ideal of "bypassing work" in action.

 

with very few non-cosmetic things in the cartel market (speeders, crystals, pre-modded armor, legacy perks), it is my guess that bioware might actually be losing money. if members of the community are happy with their cosmetic choices they've unlocked in their collections, they have little reason to buy CC.

 

another example of the whole cosmetic thing not working out well is what happened with GSF. completely useless paints, paint schemes, and color modules for blaster fire and engines were all that were available. the only good use for CC was buying CM ships, which recycled models that were already in the game, and transferring ship req into fleet req (again, my "bypassing work" philosophy). i think the lack of CM use was what might have made GSF bomb as much as it did.

 

i would like to see some advanced implants, earpieces, offhands, and mods of all levels (counting by 5's) purchasable with CC that are equipable by anyone 5 levels early. some other uses would also be nice.

 

anyway, as with the title of this thread, i would like to non-threateningly (the community has a tendency to lash at the slightest thing) ask why everyone is so against what is so natural for an MMO.

 

You probably don't know LoL

[theUndead]

Because this game does not need it? IMO the pay to win systems that are in place in other games such as STO for example are demoralzing to the average player because in that game if you actually want to be on top form you will have to spend money it is as simple as that.

 

This game has managed to stay clear of that and in my mind it is better for it. I would like to ask you a question though OP, you said that pay to win in the traditional sense is to bypass work in order to get something you would usually have to grind for. So, my question to you is, where or how do you draw a line in the sand?

 

I mean if we take that logic than to you having full dread master gear on the CM would be a good thing? Or maybe it is full ranked gear? Either way, please tell me how this is somehow a good thing because I honestly do not see it. Besides, it also creates this mentality that you can only be good if you spend money and will show elitism to the extreme.

 

EDIT: By the way it is not necessarily natural for an MMO to have a P2W feature. I mean look at WoW, yes they have a token for an instant 90 but they do not sell gear for gold. So how is natural?

 

So again I think the notion that it would not be harmful is disingenuous because once you start the flood gates open and more and more things that are actually earned will be made redundant and when that happens good bye to progression and progression PVP.

Edited August 16, 2014 by theUndead

[Cox_The_Beast]

The only kind of situation in which I would accept such an approach - paying real money for top gear - would be if there was 0 needed interactions with other players.

 

No PvP, no Ops, no anything of that kind, where that gear would count. Why? Because it'd be unfair to those that would prefer not to spend as much in money, but wouldn't mind spending as much in time. I for one can't afford to spend real money to get my gear at top lvl. I work with the few CC I get for subbing, and atm I'm quite satisfied tbh. But of course, even if I run Ops and PvP, I'm not top gear. At all. Still, I enjoy working over it on my free time, running an Op here and there with friends and such, mostly SMs. PvPing with friends aswell. That's my idea of fun.

 

If I was to meet a player in full top gear right after reaching 55 - and I don't mean that he sent it using Legacy Gear, that's perfectly legit to me - I'd feel really bad. Like, useless. Because my inability to invest more in the game would make me useless for my team of friends, in the game.

Why sticking to my tank in mostly 162-168 when they could just take that player in full 186 augmented and optimized and teach him the basics?

Why having my friends team with my Sorc in mostly Obroan gear, not optimized and without augments, when they could take the other one in full Brutalizer augmented and optimized?

This is the real issue. Want interaction? We all have to start on an even field... Otherwise it's unfair. My 2 cents.

[AlrikFassbauer]

anyway, as with the title of this thread, i would like to non-threateningly (the community has a tendency to lash at the slightest thing) ask why everyone is so against what is so natural for an MMO.

 

You haven't noticed ? It's simple : Those with the most RL money will also dominate the game.

[mokkh]

i don't know what veteran rewards are, but i assume you mean some kind of reward for subs that are subscribed for a longer period of time. that would certainly keep people from just subbing for 2 months to get the bonuses for expansions like the GSH nar shaddaa house.

 

Yeah veteran rewards were instituted by EQ1, think of them like legacy abilities that had different cooldown times:

First Year: Lesson of the Devoted - Gain double experience for 30 minutes. Refreshes every 20 hours.

 

Second Year: Infusion of the Faithful - Maximum resistances and stats and a faster run speed for 15 minutes. Refreshes every 20 hours.

 

Third Year: Chaotic Jester - You can summon a Bristlebane Halfling that lasts for 15 minutes. He randomly casts spells that can either benefit or penalize. He constantly cracks annoying jokes too!

 

Fourth Year: Expedient Recover - All of your corpses can be summoned and you will be given 100% of the lost experience back as part of the resurrection unless they are too old. Refreshes once per week.

 

Fifth Year: Steadfast Servant - Summon a NPC that will cast healing spells on you and any near players for 30 minutes. Refreshes every 20 hours.

 

Sixth Year: Staunch Recovery - Fully healed with health, mana, and endurance. Refreshes every 3 days.

 

Seventh Year: Intensity of the Resolute - Increases your melee abilities, spells, and heals for 1 minute. Refreshes every 4 hours.

 

Eigth Year: Throne of Heroes - Teleport to the Guild Lobby. Refreshes every 3 days.

 

Ninth Year: Armor of Experience - A four layered protection from 100% to 25%, each layer absorbing 10 hits until it moves to the next layer. Refreshes every 20 hours.

 

Tenth Year: Summon Resupply Agent - A Merchant is summoned to your side who will sell supplies and buy your loot off you. He remains up for 10 minutes or until you get rid of him. Refreshes every 20 hours.

 

Eleventh Year: Summon Clockwork Banker - A Banker is summoned to your side.

 

Twelvth Year: Summon Permutation Peddler - A Augmentation Distiller Vendor is summoned to your side. Refreshes every 20 hours.

 

Thirteenth Year: Summon Tribute Master - A Tribute Master is summoned to your side. Refreshes every 20 hours.

 

Fourteenth Year: Blessing of the Devoted - A passive ability which reduces the time required between uses of your Veteran's Rewards by 25%.

[mokkh]

I'm here to "play to win."

 

What you are talking about is completely sidestepping the gameplay aspect in order to directly purchase stats and bonuses. If this game went that route my subscription would be cancelled, I would delete every single character I had ever made, uninstall the game, and not look back.

[HnnahEliz]

There are other games that offer a Pay 2 Win approach. Spending real-world dollars gives someone an actual playable in-game advantage of some sort.

 

These games end up being structured such that if you DON'T spend money in the cash shop, you are gimped.

 

Your ability to play the game becomes tied to how much additional money you pump into it, instead of simply your subscription fees and skill.

 

Offering only cosmetic features in a cash shop does not have the same effect.

 

Not everyone is American... Not everyone spends Dollars! We all have our own different Currencies!

[Greyhaws]

The second post in this thread nailed it. Usually with P2W games If you don't pay then the game is either impossible to get anywhere or the other players expect a cash layout so you have the kind of gear they will let into a guild.

 

That said, I'm not against some P2W buffs for new players just so they can catch up easier but it should always be sub lvl 20 and no higher.

[Khevar]

Not everyone is American... Not everyone spends Dollars! We all have our own different Currencies!

I was referring to Canadian Dollars, you silly goose.

[Anaesha]

All I'm going to say is this.

 

if you want a P2W model then go play one of the Korean made MMOs!! Tor's CM is fine as it is and we have no need for P2W garbage or the people who support such systems.

[TravelersWay]

I am not philosophically opposed to Pay to Win. If done correctly, it would allow players to customize their character they way the want and allow them the maximum amount of time playing only the content in a game that they find the most enjoyable. However, the problem is that it has yet to be done correctly.

 

For example, let's say someone's favorite content in the game is the PvE space game, or the individual planetary heroics. That content they find the most fun and enjoy doing it every time they log in. However, let's also say that there is a particular OPs gear set that the player finds the most cosmetically pleasing to them, but said player hates playing Operations with a passion.

 

Allowing said player to purchase said armor via real money in the cash shop would allow said player to customize the look of his character to their preference (thus enhancing their playing experience and enjoyment of the game), and still focus all of their available play time on the content they enjoy the most - the PvE space game (or the Planetary Heroics, or Flashpoints, etc. etc.)

[HelinCarnate]

I am not philosophically opposed to Pay to Win. If done correctly, it would allow players to customize their character they way the want and allow them the maximum amount of time playing only the content in a game that they find the most enjoyable. However, the problem is that it has yet to be done correctly.

 

For example, let's say someone's favorite content in the game is the PvE space game, or the individual planetary heroics. That content they find the most fun and enjoy doing it every time they log in. However, let's also say that there is a particular OPs gear set that the player finds the most cosmetically pleasing to them, but said player hates playing Operations with a passion.

 

Allowing said player to purchase said armor via real money in the cash shop would allow said player to customize the look of his character to their preference (thus enhancing their playing experience and enjoyment of the game), and still focus all of their available play time on the content they enjoy the most - the PvE space game (or the Planetary Heroics, or Flashpoints, etc. etc.)

 

Allowing the purchase of a cosmetic set of armor that looks like it is endgame stuff is not pay to win.

[HelinCarnate]

does affect me

 

I want a Bantha (for example) yet there is no quest line I can partake in to EARN ONE

There is no boss I can kill for the chance at a rare drop

The ONLY way is to buy cartel packs with real money or reward someone on GTN who used real money to obtain (P2W)

 

My gaming experience has been diminished because of it

P2W has robbed me of a in game experience I should be able to experience and value for the value of my subscription and time alone.

 

Cant say it any more straight forward then that to make it clear

If you still fail to understand why Im against it

well that your issue then as its been explained twice now

 

Lol, you have an odd view of what you consider "winning". You already mentioned that you can indeed get said item through earning in game currency and making a purchase from another player. Just because another player gets money for selling an item does not mean that they somehow win and you lose when you partake in a voluntary transaction. You both feel as you are better off for the exchange or you would never make the purchase in the first place. Sounds like a win to me. Get over yourself.

Edited August 16, 2014 by HelinCarnate

[easindahouse]

Why would anybody be for "pay to win"?

 

It is a terrible concept. Pay to have better gear than others in a competitive environment? It would chase even more away from Warzones and the game entirely.

 

Having to pay $15 dollars a month to enable all the content is enough, let alone the $150 some people spent for the CE or the general $60 many paid when the game was released.

[DataBeaver]

i am suggesting that the CM should offer gear equivalent to the best gear available through gameplay.

 

i certainly don't want the CM gear to be superior to normal gear, just equal to. the only advantage of paying money is that it woulds be easier and a bit earlier.

 

with swtor, players are not usually fighting other players, and when they are they are bolstered to a generic level usually.

Okay, so let's imagine BioWare puts 186 on CM. I'm sure you've encountered or at least heard of ops groups requiring 168 gear for SM runs, and players calling 30k HP in a level 55 HM FP "undergeared". With the tendency of people to want to do things the easiest way possible, it wouldn't take long until most ops groups would start demanding 186 gear. Since that level of gear is only available through gameplay to the most hardcore raiders, where would that put average players? That's right, they'd have to fork over some real cash to meet the arbitrary gear requirements set by the community, or be effectively locked out of content. And that's the definition of pay-to-win.

[Gokkus]

Because I would likely unsub and never play again, and they just dont want to risk that.

 

 

Seriously though, Ive played a P2W game. It wrecks the community, breeds clueless players who screw up group content and destroys the F2P aspect of the game which is pretty important to SWTOR right now. Maybe not right away, but imo it is pretty unavoidable in the long run.

[Versath]

Why would I waste my time grinding out the best gear when I could easily buy it for pennies in comparison to the amount of time I'd invest? pay to win games are boring.

[TravelersWay]

Why would I waste my time grinding out the best gear when I could easily buy it for pennies in comparison to the amount of time I'd invest? pay to win games are boring.

 

Yes because incessant grinding isn't boring at all.

[Jrr_hypernova]

Its a f******** stupid *** idea and its whats killing the quality of lots of games.

[Vandicus]

Yes because incessant grinding isn't boring at all.

 

Incessant grinding is a hallmark of p2win games. Because they want to incentivize paying instead of grinding

[theSCARAYone]

P2w+a subscription= Total BS. They want the cm to be p2w, then they can't have a sub.

[Daekarus]

First, as others have said, when P2W comes around, my sub goes away. I actually quit SWTOR for the first time right before F2P because I was convinced by the forum yammering that it was going to completely ruin the game - they were wrong, because it's not P2W.

 

Second, it's a slippery slope. Nuff said there.

 

Third, as another person noted, people already have ridiculous requirements to join their Ops groups. I was kicked from a SM Ops group for having never done the fight despite the fact that I was in 162 to 180 gear with full augments. P2W would make that nonsense worse.

[CyberneticDucks]

But why do you want this? What problem are you trying to solve? What's wrong with having to go to the GTN, or craft it yourself, or use planetary commendations?

 

GTN is massively overpriced, a single purple 55 mod is 4.5 mil.

 

my beef with the CM is that i personally feel like i am wasting money because the things i buy don't have any effect on combat performance or anything. pretty much i am playing dress up dolls with my alts, putting them in cool vehicles, and not much else.

 

the CM is still functioning completely well on its own, though.

[CyberneticDucks]

P2W is not natural for an MMO.

It's the equivalent of using God mode in a single player game. Yeah, it's fun to completely destroy your enemies without them being able to so much as scratch you, but for how long and at what cost?

 

I don't think you fully realize the repercussions of what you're suggesting.

 

- Crafting would be dead. Why go to the trouble of re-ing, crafting and trying to sell an item that is hard and costly to make when someone else would be able to just buy it and resell it on the GTN making the same (if not more) amount of credits?

 

- Running operations would also die out. Operations are fun but after a few runs, once you've learned the tactics and downed the bosses a few times, they become unbearably repetitive. What would be the point in trying to get the gear when you could buy it for CC or from the GTN?

 

- The effects of P2W would ripple out of the game's economy. People are less willing to try out a game that's notoriously P2W (see the hundreds of "F2P" games out there that are not really F2P because in order to be competitive you need to spend massive amounts of money). Others would leave because they'd see no reason in trying hard to get something others can simply buy with money.

 

As someone else already mentioned, the whole point of a game is that no matter how much money you have in real life, in the game you're only as good as your skill and gear. The only thing that should count in a game is that you understand how to play and how to gear your characters. Anything more than fluffy vanity items that only enhance the way your character looks, would cause a severe unbalance in the game's economy and its general standing in the MMO community.

 

As for color crystals, the one and only reason why the CM crystals have not completely destroyed Artifice is because the colors offered for direct purchase or through cartel packs are not the same colors as the ones offered by Artifice.

 

crafting pretty much is dead with things like CM adaptives, CM dyes, and CM crystals, which all give superior things for less effort than getting to artifice 450 to make a crystal not featured in the collections tab.

 

ops are completely boring for the same thing you said: "once you've learned the tactics and downed the bosses a few times, they become unbearably repetitive."

 

P2W is completely natural for an MMO, how do you think they make their money?!

 

ok, so maybe absolutely any level of P2W is bad, but maybe they could make spending money more convenient instead of becoming a god with a couple $100 bills. for instance paying money for a subscription will let you teleport to anywhere you want or make you're mount go 120%. that is a way that doesn't effect gameplay but makes things easier for you.

[theUndead]

crafting pretty much is dead with things like CM adaptives, CM dyes, and CM crystals, which all give superior things for less effort than getting to artifice 450 to make a crystal not featured in the collections tab.

 

ops are completely boring for the same thing you said: "once you've learned the tactics and downed the bosses a few times, they become unbearably repetitive."

 

P2W is completely natural for an MMO, how do you think they make their money?!

 

ok, so maybe absolutely any level of P2W is bad, but maybe they could make spending money more convenient instead of becoming a god with a couple $100 bills. for instance paying money for a subscription will let you teleport to anywhere you want or make you're mount go 120%. that is a way that doesn't effect gameplay but makes things easier for you.

 

What you talking about is convience, totally different to P2W. I'll say this, maybe they could add more substantial perks so for that I could see your point. However, I must reterate that P2W is not natrual for an MMO. Income is generated by currency yes but also with subscriptions transfers etc.

 

The pay to win aspect of many MMO's is not exclusive to their profits. It is certainly a factor, but not the primary source of income.