Kaggath Battlegrounds Heats - Fist of the Empire vs the Confederacy

[LadyKulvax]

That's a good point, but that requires space domination.

 

Perhaps we should get back to space.

 

Something as we have already deduced almost instantly, that the Fist has.

[StarSquirrel]

In the Wookiee Description of Black Sun, there is a sentence that is directly cited as saying:

 

"its information networks surpassed even the accuracy and scope of Imperial Intelligence.[8]"

 

Now if we are to assume this is the Imperial Intelligence under Ysanne Isard (one of the most successful and feared Intelligence branches to have ever existed) being discussed in the quote, then I fail to see how we can assume that Sith Intelligence is even close to Black Sun's level.

 

If it just references Sith Intelligence, then that's all the better.

 

Also Aurbere, Guri wouldn't just offer the Neimoidians money, she'd start executing the ones who don't accept her offer till she found ones that did. Unlike Black Sun, the Trade Federation has a set of leaders Dooku needs to control.

 

Their money could quickly be transferred to Black Sun accounts, their droids could be sent signals to have them turn on the Sith, and their production they had available could be pirated quickly.

 

By the time Ventress and Dooku realize what is going on, have Sith Intelligence block the signals ordering their droids to turn against them, and travel to Cato Neimoidia the damage will already have been done. The Annihilators could do severe damage to FE forces within a very short amount of time. Confusion would reign for a time as well. Guri and her ships having stolen all the droids available could sabotage the factories and leave by the time Ventress and her team arrives.

Edited August 9, 2014 by StarSquirrel

[Beniboybling]

I think we should finish discussing space before we move on to suppliers, as the outcome of space will directly influence that. In particular it might be a good idea to discuss the effectiveness of boarding parties.

[StarSquirrel]

I think we should finish discussing space before we move on to suppliers, as the outcome of space will directly influence that. In particular it might be a good idea to discuss the effectiveness of boarding parties.

 

BX Commando droids boarding ships... Has that ever not worked?

 

To be fair, if the FE can board a CIC ship I don't think the Black Sun guys could put up as tough a fight as the Sith Empire guys.

Edited August 9, 2014 by StarSquirrel

[LadyKulvax]

Imperial Intelligence(Sith Empire) actually has a higher success rate, they were almost flawless and infilitrated the Republic successfully for a century on every level of government, even using Sith Lords.

 

The Republic and the Jedi suspected nothing and even then, when the GGW was being fought, they were still running circles around the SIS, even in the Cold War, it was Jadus that f***ed it up from the inside.

 

Also that statement is clearly based on the GE's Imp Intel, which wasn't the greatest by any measure.

[Beniboybling]

BX Commando droids boarding ships... Has that ever not worked?

 

To be fair, if the FE can board a CIC ship I don't think the Black Sun guys could put up as tough a fight as the Sith Empire guys.

Clone Commando's slaughter the clones every time, true. And I doubt Sith Marines would fair much better. But what about the possibility of Sith guarding the bridges? I assume at least a few would be on board important vessels.

 

The only issue with that is that the small vessels we are dealing with are a lot harder to board that capital ships. Perhaps impossible as they all seem to be accessible only by access ports and the Fist has no boarding craft.

[Aurbere]

Also Aurbere, Guri wouldn't just offer the Neimoidians money, she'd start executing the ones who don't accept her offer till she found ones that did. Unlike Black Sun, the Trade Federation has a set of leaders Dooku needs to control.

 

Their money could quickly be transferred to Black Sun accounts, their droids could be sent signals to have them turn on the Sith, and their production they had available could be pirated quickly.

 

By the time Ventress and Dooku realize what is going on, have Sith Intelligence block the signals ordering their droids to turn against them, and travel to Cato Neimoidia the damage will already have been done. The Annihilators could do severe damage to FE forces within a very short amount of time. Confusion would reign for a time as well. Guri and her ships having stolen all the droids available could sabotage the factories and leave by the time Ventress and her team arrives.

 

Your whole plan relies on Guri doing that without anybody noticing. As you can imagine, that is a severely flawed way of thinking, especially with Imperial Intelligence. Seriously, you don't think Sith Intelligence will be there? They were practically everywhere, and Dooku likes to make sure his assets are secure. They'll be there, watching, making sure the Trade Feds do what their master commands them to do. When Guri and her goons show up, they'll terminate the hostiles with extreme prejudice.

 

Even though we should save this for another time, I have no with issue squashing this plan to prevent it from rearing its ugly head again.

[StarSquirrel]

Also that statement is clearly based on the GE's Imp Intel, which wasn't the greatest by any measure.

 

When you employ twice or more people of course you're going to have to accept that the quality on the low end will suffer, but their best agents were still exceptional and the organization was feared throughout the galaxy.

 

Now Black Sun's intelligence network is bigger than the GE intelligence and more accurate. Sith Intelligence really just isn't in the same league. It was smaller (as the Empire was smaller), and had a more narrow scope. While the missions it did complete had a very high success rate, they also took on a limited number of missions compared to the GE Intelligence.

 

Now can we go back to space?

[LadyKulvax]

Put those BX droids in space for boarding actions and the ground battle turns into a faceroll IMO, they are already outnumbered over 4 to 1 and have the tactical disadvantage.

[Canino]

Alright. Y'all want to talk about defection? Here you go.

 

 

Why won’t the CIC disband?

 

In order to answer that question, you must know what Black Sun is. So, what is Black Sun?

 

"It is a vast criminal syndicate…its influence felt on every planet from the Core Worlds to the Outer Rim. Black Sun has existed for hundreds of years, and embedded itself in the very fiber of the galaxy. The resources at its disposal are almost limitless. The soldiers under its command number in the tens of thousands. The ignorant even call it the most powerful force in the known universe."

―Darth Sidious, to Darth Maul

Well, for starters, let’s go get rid of all the ideas you have about Black Sun. They are not pirates. They are not smugglers. They are not assassins. Or bounty hunters.

 

They are an organization.

 

Do not confuse the two. Black Sun is not made up of greedy pirates, blood thirsty killers, and backstabbing scum. Do they utilize the above? Absolutely. But they, however, are not. Black Sun is run by ambition. Much like any corporation or company, Black Sun tests potential Vigos, Underlords, and members. Hard work pays off, and doing more work, missions, and risking your life for the organization is what moves you up the chain of command.

 

Remember that. Each and every member of Black Sun has risked their life for it. Suicide missions where a daily task, and any person who failed was unworthy. The Galactic Empire did much the same thing. Black Sun built loyalty into its members so they would never betray the organization that helped them. They absorbed gangs, kadijics, and countless other syndicates. And yet it has never disbanded.

 

“Better a black sun then none.”

Money?

 

Now, that’s something that might do it. If you thought that, you’d also be wrong. Not only are its members wealthy, they respect Xizor. There is a reason he was never usurped. There is a reason no one ever tried to usurp him. He led them through a Golden Era. Black Sun was at its largest, most powerful, most influential state. It was its richest time as well. He had eliminated all competitors, or was in the process of eliminating them.

 

It is no different now.

 

Xizor owned the Besadii kajidic. He had one Hutt competitor. If that’s not a Golden Era, I don’t know what one is. He is the third most powerful man in the galaxy, and is respected and worshiped by Black Sun. Would Moffs go against the Emperor? That is exactly what you are proposing.

 

And let’s not forget who is financing this- The Trade Federation. The same group the cheeped out on ever battle droid ever used to try and take over the galaxy. Good rep. they have with cash, huh?

 

We do, however, have this quote from Xizor:

 

"If you cannot afford to lose, you should not play the game."

Vigos

 

Have Vigos gone with Maul? Yes. Have Vigos gone with Savage? Yes. Did they kill the leader of Black Sun in front of said Vigos? Yes.

 

That is the only reason to defect. If you kill Xizor, they defect. Why? Xizor has personally bombarded a planet just to kill one person. He has access to the Emperor, Vader, Guri, and the entire Underworld.

 

And let’s not forget how Xizor got in power. He betrayed a Vigo and took his position. He knows how to play the game. He won’t let it happen to him.

 

“The loss of its leader and so much of its infrastructure crippled Black Sun to an extent from which it would never recover.”

 

Xizor is the best leader Black Sun has ever had, and will ever have. All his underlings have seen him only succeed. There is no reason for them, unless he is killed, to defect.

 

Overview

So, why won't Black Sun defect?

 

• Respect to Xizor
  
• Money
  
• Imperial-esque Dedication
  
• Promotion
  
• Fear
  

 

 

 

[Aurbere]

I think we should finish discussing space before we move on to suppliers, as the outcome of space will directly influence that. In particular it might be a good idea to discuss the effectiveness of boarding parties.

 

Kilran and the Sith Empire used and fought boarding parties regularly, almost as a matter of routine, their defense against boarders will be strong.

 

Also remember that the Fist has an assumed fighter numbers advantage, making it easier for fighters to destroy transports in transit.

[StarSquirrel]

Your whole plan relies on Guri doing that without anybody noticing. As you can imagine, that is a severely flawed way of thinking, especially with Imperial Intelligence. Seriously, you don't think Sith Intelligence will be there? They were practically everywhere, and Dooku likes to make sure his assets are secure. They'll be there, watching, making sure the Trade Feds do what their master commands them to do. When Guri and her goons show up, they'll terminate the hostiles with extreme prejudice.

 

Even though we should save this for another time, I have no with issue squashing this plan to prevent it from rearing its ugly head again.

 

Considering Guri is an assassin who is nigh-perfect at avoiding detection, and she is a droid so Ventress and Dooku can't sense her. Load her ship with a few BX droid Commandos and there is absolutely nothing a few Sith Intel officers can do aside from warn Ventress and Dooku.

 

And as I addressed, by then it would be too late.

[StarSquirrel]

Kilran and the Sith Empire used and fought boarding parties regularly, almost as a matter of routine, their defense against boarders will be strong.

 

Also remember that the Fist has an assumed fighter numbers advantage, making it easier for fighters to destroy transports in transit.

Remember that the ships used for boarding have extremely heavy armor though your point about Kilran is a good one.

 

However the clones fought boarding parties on a regular basis as well, and see how it turned out for them?

[LadyKulvax]

When you employ twice or more people of course you're going to have to accept that the quality on the low end will suffer, but their best agents were still exceptional and the organization was feared throughout the galaxy.

 

Now Black Sun's intelligence network is bigger than the GE intelligence and more accurate. Sith Intelligence really just isn't in the same league. It was smaller (as the Empire was smaller), and had a more narrow scope. While the missions it did complete had a very high success rate, they also took on a limited number of missions compared to the GE Intelligence.

 

Now can we go back to space?

 

Source for this? because the SWTOR:E states the SE's Intelligence was vast and broad in scope and had tabs on everything, even the Jedi Order was being spied on, SIS itself had been infiltrated on multiple levels and one of the Republic's top Admirals was an Imperial spy.

 

They did everything from economic sabotage to infiltration, assassination...

 

Keep in mind the SE's Intelligence contained Chiss intelligence as well.

[Canino]

Kilran and the Sith Empire used and fought boarding parties regularly, almost as a matter of routine, their defense against boarders will be strong.

 

Also remember that the Fist has an assumed fighter numbers advantage, making it easier for fighters to destroy transports in transit.

You forget discord missles. Faster than normal missiles, they can track fighters and releases buzz droids. Not to mention almost every ship in my fleet would have them.

 

We keep talking about how boarding parties spell doom for my ground forces. Hypori is almost on top of Tatooine. It is one square away. If the CIC wins in space, reinforcements will flood the ground in countless droids.

[Aurbere]

Considering Guri is an assassin who is nigh-perfect at avoiding detection, and she is a droid so Ventress and Dooku can't sense her. Load her ship with a few BX droid Commandos and there is absolutely nothing a few Sith Intel officers can do aside from warn Ventress and Dooku.

 

And as I addressed, by then it would be too late.

 

Intelligence will be with the Trade Federation. They will dispatch agents to Cato Neimoidia to ensure that the Trade Feds to what Dooku wants them to do. It won't be too late because they'll be there. How did that not get across when I outright said that.

 

And before you say that they won't send agents there, this is Count Dooku we're talking about. He went to great lengths to ensure the safety of his allies.

 

The fact that they can't sense Guri will tip them off. If they can't feel anything coming off of her, they'll know she's a droid.

[Aurbere]

Remember that the ships used for boarding have extremely heavy armor though your point about Kilran is a good one.

 

However the clones fought boarding parties on a regular basis as well, and see how it turned out for them?

 

Kilan, having cast amounts of experience in this area, will have set up countermeasures, and he will be able to do so on the fly, containing the threat and then eliminating it.

[Beniboybling]

Put those BX droids in space for boarding actions and the ground battle turns into a faceroll IMO, they are already outnumbered over 4 to 1 and have the tactical disadvantage.

1. BX Commando droids are arguable worth more than 4 clones. However the Confederacy will likely adopt hit and fade tactics in which numbers become peripheral and skill becomes far more important.

 

2. If the Confederacy were to say dedicate 10% of their force to a rear 4 Harrowers they could field 54 Cortosis Battle Droids, 16 Commando Droids and 7 Droidekas. Which is enough for effective boarding actions IMO.

 

3. Any advantage in space is an advantage on the ground. They may well dedicate 20% knowing this.

 

Just some things to bare in mind.

Edited August 9, 2014 by Beniboybling

[Aurbere]

You forget discord missles. Faster than normal missiles, they can track fighters and releases buzz droids. Not to mention almost every ship in my fleet would have them.

 

We keep talking about how boarding parties spell doom for my ground forces. Hypori is almost on top of Tatooine. It is one square away. If the CIC wins in space, reinforcements will flood the ground in countless droids.

 

Good point about buzz droids, but that doesn't deal with the full problem. You won't be able to hit that many fighters, and the buzz droids just float around once fired.

[Beniboybling]

Your whole plan relies on Guri doing that without anybody noticing. As you can imagine, that is a severely flawed way of thinking, especially with Imperial Intelligence. Seriously, you don't think Sith Intelligence will be there? They were practically everywhere, and Dooku likes to make sure his assets are secure. They'll be there, watching, making sure the Trade Feds do what their master commands them to do. When Guri and her goons show up, they'll terminate the hostiles with extreme prejudice.

 

Even though we should save this for another time, I have no with issue squashing this plan to prevent it from rearing its ugly head again.

I think I'd add to that that Guri will be busy keeping a handle over the Black Sun.

[Canino]

Beni, can I have Nar Shaddaa for Black Sun? Look at it this way. Durga was a Vigo for Black Sun under Xizor. Durga was the leader of Besadii at this time as well. Xizor technically owned the kadijic, who was on Nar Shaddaa.

 

Hence, Black Sun on Nar Shaddaa.

[Aurbere]

I think I'd add to that that Guri will be busy keeping a handle over the Black Sun.

 

Good point.

[Canino]

I still believe that both Ventress and Guri would be in space. Both are skilled pilots, and I see them dog fighting as a very real possibility.

 

Obviously Guri wins

 

But seriously. The Stinger is by far a better ship then the Trident. If Ventress get behind Guri, she will be hit with proton missiles. Any other side? Ion cannon. In front? Blasted with laser fire and potentially discord missiles.

Edited August 9, 2014 by Canino

[Beniboybling]

Good point about buzz droids, but that doesn't deal with the full problem. You won't be able to hit that many fighters, and the buzz droids just float around once fired.

Don't forget diamond boron missiles and corvettes.

[Beniboybling]

Beni, can I have Nar Shaddaa for Black Sun? Look at it this way. Durga was a Vigo for Black Sun under Xizor. Durga was the leader of Besadii at this time as well. Xizor technically owned the kadijic, who was on Nar Shaddaa.

 

Hence, Black Sun on Nar Shaddaa.

I guess that is reasonable.