Guild Ship Frameworks and PVP Flagging

[Daekarus]

but that logic is flawed since under that logic PvE'ers are being railroaded into warzones to complete the warzone daily. I mean its a mission right?

Additionally under that logic I could argue that I'm getting railroaded into PvE all the time since most quests that give significant rewards come from raids or other PvE quests.

Those comparisons are both flawed. A PvP Warzone is a PvP endeavor from start to finish. If you don't like PvP you don't even start, because the entirety of the content is PvP. Saying that a PvPer is railroaded into PvE content makes no sense because the fundament foundation of the game is a large set of worlds populated by NPCs. You're in a PvE environment from the moment you create a character, and PvP is an ancillary component of that. Even on a PvP server, the goals of the game are still pretty explicitly PvE, there is just the added difficulty of player interference (or added flavor and entertainment value, depending on your perspective). To compare SWTOR PvE and PvP on equal footing is like comparing Unreal Tournament PvE and PvP on equal footing - it's simply invalid.

[Zoom_VI]

Which I counter with the commanders and gree pylon missions both being PvP endeavors.

[Infernixx]

but that logic is flawed since under that logic PvE'ers are being railroaded into warzones to complete the warzone daily. I mean its a mission right?

Additionally under that logic I could argue that I'm getting railroaded into PvE all the time since most quests that give significant rewards come from raids or other PvE quests.

 

Not the same thing at all.

[Lotharofxev]

Mind you, almost none of this affects me because my main has already completed almost everything, and like hell am I going to bother doing it all again on an alt.

 

Hey, it's your $15/month, but um, there are a ton of class stories out there. Furthermore, I rather doubt you've "completed almost everything" on a single toon. That would indicate an INCREDIBLE amount of grinding esp vis-a-vis achievements.

[Brewski]

Yep, because a truly significant number of sidequests (and maybe even a class quest or two) require a trip to those places. Saying "Well just don't do it" isn't good enough because of how frequently it happens.

 

Sorry, I gotta call shenanigans on this statement. No class quest takes you to the Outlaws den or any other PvP location with the exception of the optional "Introduction to Open World PvP" mission everyone gets around level 20, and that one was specifically added to show you the Outlaws Den in case you were interested because no one would find it otherwise.

 

As for sidequests, none of them are mandatory in any sense of the word, and there's not more than a handful of them to begin with. I can think of one stop for the HK quest, one for the Macrobinoculars quest and one GSI daily. Unless I'm missing dozens of optional quests, there's nothing that forces you to actually enter the Outlaws den.

 

The few times I've gone in (to complete that content or just as a shortcut because I did not feel like going around) I've never even seen another player in there, let alone been attacked. It's not a dangerous place, to be honest.

 

Then there's the Gree event, which is again optional and possible to max rep without ever entering the PvP areas.

 

This is one more optional addition to open world PvP you can take or leave. It's not in anyway necessary to do. I'm not even a PvP player, and I think it's a great addition.

[Daekarus]

Which I counter with the commanders and gree pylon missions both being PvP endeavors.

Funny, you'd think I would have noticed playing PvP content when I did the Gree pylons... oh wait, I was playing PvE. Funny, the exact same pylons exist inside and outside the *totally empty and abandoned* PvP zone in the Gree area.

At their core both the pylons and Commamders are PvE with PvP impediments. The goal is PvE, and the core challenges are intact even when no one else is around. You don't need members of the opposing faction present to complete them, they simply make things more complicated. To claim those are PvP content would make any real PvPer in other games laugh hysterically.

 

As I said before, the complaints are against that very thing - people want the core PvE component of that content without the PvP interference. They want the rules changed because they don't like how they're currently implemented and don't enjoy it.

[Daekarus]

Sorry, I gotta call shenanigans on this statement. No class quest takes you to the Outlaws den or any other PvP location with the exception of the optional "Introduction to Open World PvP" mission everyone gets around level 20, and that one was specifically added to show you the Outlaws Den in case you were interested because no one would find it otherwise.

 

As for sidequests, none of them are mandatory in any sense of the word, and there's not more than a handful of them to begin with. I can think of one stop for the HK quest, one for the Macrobinoculars quest and one GSI daily. Unless I'm missing dozens of optional quests, there's nothing that forces you to actually enter the Outlaws den.

 

The few times I've gone in (to complete that content or just as a shortcut because I did not feel like going around) I've never even seen another player in there, let alone been attacked. It's not a dangerous place, to be honest.

 

Then there's the Gree event, which is again optional and possible to max rep without ever entering the PvP areas.

 

This is one more optional addition to open world PvP you can take or leave. It's not in anyway necessary to do. I'm not even a PvP player, and I think it's a great addition.

 

Oh there are more than that. It's been too long for me to remember, but I have taken a good many trips to the Outlaw's Den. They put it in the most obnoxious place possible on Tatooine, too.

[Daekarus]

Hey, it's your $15/month, but um, there are a ton of class stories out there. Furthermore, I rather doubt you've "completed almost everything" on a single toon. That would indicate an INCREDIBLE amount of grinding esp vis-a-vis achievements.

 

I don't do achievements. They're an incredibly transparent mechanic to induce repetitive and uninteresting actions in players using existing content to eat more time. When I said "Completed almost everything," I should have said "completed almost everything I think is actually worth my time and effort."

 

I fully intend to complete all of the class stories when I have time.

Edited August 8, 2014 by Daekarus

[Darth_Wicked]

Sorry, I gotta call shenanigans on this statement. No class quest takes you to the Outlaws den or any other PvP location with the exception of the optional "Introduction to Open World PvP" mission everyone gets around level 20, and that one was specifically added to show you the Outlaws Den in case you were interested because no one would find it otherwise.

 

As for sidequests, none of them are mandatory in any sense of the word, and there's not more than a handful of them to begin with. I can think of one stop for the HK quest, one for the Macrobinoculars quest and one GSI daily. Unless I'm missing dozens of optional quests, there's nothing that forces you to actually enter the Outlaws den.

 

The few times I've gone in (to complete that content or just as a shortcut because I did not feel like going around) I've never even seen another player in there, let alone been attacked. It's not a dangerous place, to be honest.

 

Then there's the Gree event, which is again optional and possible to max rep without ever entering the PvP areas.

 

This is one more optional addition to open world PvP you can take or leave. It's not in anyway necessary to do. I'm not even a PvP player, and I think it's a great addition.

 

These actually DO NOT force anyone to enter the Outlaw's Den.

 

People just enter because they don't better I guess. Both objectives can be scanned OUTSIDE the Outlaw's Den area.

[ikinai]

Oh there are more than that. It's been too long for me to remember, but I have taken a good many trips to the Outlaw's Den. They put it in the most obnoxious place possible on Tatooine, too.

 

I have to disagree. Now I am probably one of the biggest carebears ever to exist in the world of MMOs. I will try to find a way around a PvP obstacle for days before I set foot in there. I have been into the Outlaws den twice. Both times for HK51. But, come on HK is totally worth it. I have a level 55 of every type except sith warrior, my highest level warrior is 49. So yeah, all those quests, there are ways around the den, except HK. But, nothing says 'Yeah, we bad!' like a level 1 sith warrior showing up to the academy with an HK51 in tow.

[Daekarus]

These actually DO NOT force anyone to enter the Outlaw's Den.

 

People just enter because they don't better I guess. Both objectives can be scanned OUTSIDE the Outlaw's Den area.

I suspect that was the intention of the designers - get people to flag themselves in order to achieve an unrelated goal. It is nice to know that you don't absolutely have to, though, if you already know what you're looking for.

[Lotharofxev]

I fully intend to complete all of the class stories when I have time.

 

Which means you aren't even CLOSE to doing everything.

 

Why do I have the feeling Daekerus is a level 54 something-or-another frontin'?

[Daekarus]

I have to disagree. Now I am probably one of the biggest carebears ever to exist in the world of MMOs. I will try to find a way around a PvP obstacle for days before I set foot in there. I have been into the Outlaws den twice. Both times for HK51. But, come on HK is totally worth it. I have a level 55 of every type except sith warrior, my highest level warrior is 49. So yeah, all those quests, there are ways around the den, except HK. But, nothing says 'Yeah, we bad!' like a level 1 sith warrior showing up to the academy with an HK51 in tow.

 

There are other side quests like the Seeker/Macro quest line and a few others. Not too many in the big scheme of things I guess, given the sheer volume of quests in the game.

 

I just recently got HK, and I have a Sith Warrior who is going to enjoy using and abusing his power. :-)

[Daekarus]

Which means you aren't even CLOSE to doing everything.

 

Why do I have the feeling Daekerus is a level 54 something-or-another frontin'?

 

Because you have no idea what you're talking about?

 

If you'll actually read, you'll note that I said I had completed almost everything (I felt worth the time and effort) on my main. That means the statement applies to a single toon only. I've only played through 3 other class stories to completion and got to around 48 in the Inquisitor story, and none of those alts have near the time or effort in them my main does.

 

Reading... must be hard, I guess.

 

EDIT: What the heck is "frontin'" ? Is that a street slang substitute for a real word?

Edited August 8, 2014 by Daekarus

[ikinai]

There are other side quests like the Seeker/Macro quest line and a few others. Not too many in the big scheme of things I guess, given the sheer volume of quests in the game.

 

I just recently got HK, and I have a Sith Warrior who is going to enjoy using and abusing his power. :-)

 

I've done the seeker macrobinoc quests on all of them, no need to enter. Believe me, it irks the PvPers who are sitting there waiting for you to enter, and you don't

 

I usually wave at them and blow them a kiss.

[Zoom_VI]

Funny, you'd think I would have noticed playing PvP content when I did the Gree pylons... oh wait, I was playing PvE. Funny, the exact same pylons exist inside and outside the *totally empty and abandoned* PvP zone in the Gree area.

At their core both the pylons and Commamders are PvE with PvP impediments. The goal is PvE, and the core challenges are intact even when no one else is around. You don't need members of the opposing faction present to complete them, they simply make things more complicated. To claim those are PvP content would make any real PvPer in other games laugh hysterically.

 

As I said before, the complaints are against that very thing - people want the core PvE component of that content without the PvP interference. They want the rules changed because they don't like how they're currently implemented and don't enjoy it.

 

I don't know what you mean by the pylon mission being both inside and outside of the PvP zone, the only pylon I know of is in the middle of the PvP zone. Also under your logic you could argue that 8v8 warzones are PvE missions with PvP impediments since you win by capturing objectives.

 

Also I will point out that the commanders are required since there are - zero - ways a PvP guild could acquire the high level mats necessary to craft the frameworks. And before Infernixx jumps in on his "commanders are farmable" I will point out that it was revealed in another thread that commanders only drop 1-2 items at maximum not one per raid member.

[Daekarus]

I've done the seeker macrobinoc quests on all of them, no need to enter. Believe me, it irks the PvPers who are sitting there waiting for you to enter, and you don't

 

I usually wave at them and blow them a kiss.

 

That's awesome.

[Daekarus]

I don't know what you mean by the pylon mission being both inside and outside of the PvP zone, the only pylon I know of is in the middle of the PvP zone. Also under your logic you could argue that 8v8 warzones are PvE missions with PvP impediments since you win by capturing objectives.

 

Also I will point out that the commanders are required since there are - zero - ways a PvP guild could acquire the high level mats necessary to craft the frameworks. And before Infernixx jumps in on his "commanders are farmable" I will point out that it was revealed in another thread that commanders only drop 1-2 items at maximum not one per raid member.

 

I may have misunderstood what quest you were referencing with "pylon." There are structures that meet that description all over the Gree area, some inside the PvP zone and some outside from my understanding. Since I never take the PvP quests or look for objectives in the PvP area, I don't know for certain.

 

I will disagree that PvP WZs could be construed PvE content because there are no NPCs to kill.

 

Just out of curiosity, was that one to two Frameworks or one to two Encryptions? I want the different tracks to be pretty comparable, and I'd hate to see the PvP crowd stuck competing over 2 Encryptions on a weekly spawn timer or something.

Edited August 8, 2014 by Daekarus

[Lotharofxev]

Reading isn't hard, but your making claims about "doing everything" (and then moving the goalposts when called on that statement) when you haven't even completed all class stories.

 

Furthermore, your claims re Tattoine and Outlaw's Den are wrong. Just as you were wrong (and blatantly so) when called out re tanks and PvP.

 

Keep diggin'.

[Daekarus]

Reading isn't hard, but your making claims about "doing everything" (and then moving the goalposts when called on that statement) when you haven't even completed all class stories.

 

Furthermore, your claims re Tattoine and Outlaw's Den are wrong. Just as you were wrong (and blatantly so) when called out re tanks and PvP.

 

Keep diggin'.

 

I didn't move the goalpost, you simply have comprehension problems - or were just looking for something to twist. If a person claims they've done almost everything on one character, then that gives you no information and makes no claim about their activities on other characters. Please spin the wheel again.

[Infernixx]

I don't know what you mean by the pylon mission being both inside and outside of the PvP zone, the only pylon I know of is in the middle of the PvP zone. Also under your logic you could argue that 8v8 warzones are PvE missions with PvP impediments since you win by capturing objectives.

 

Also I will point out that the commanders are required since there are - zero - ways a PvP guild could acquire the high level mats necessary to craft the frameworks. And before Infernixx jumps in on his "commanders are farmable" I will point out that it was revealed in another thread that commanders only drop 1-2 items at maximum not one per raid member.

 

Except the man says, straight up, "Everyone in the uh, in the group, after you kill him, should be able to get an Encryption. And there is a chance for him to drop a Framework."

 

http://www.twitch.tv/swtor/c/4827629

 

36mins, 40 seconds. You can go in and hear it for yourself.

Edited August 8, 2014 by Infernixx

[Zoom_VI]

Except the man says, straight up, "Everyone in the uh, in the group, after you kill him, should be able to get an Encryption. And there is a chance for him to drop a Framework."

 

http://www.twitch.tv/swtor/c/4827629

 

36mins, 40 seconds. You can go in and hear it for yourself.

 

And you can go on the PTS and notice that you only get 2.

[Daekarus]

And you can go on the PTS and notice that you only get 2.

 

Interesting. I suppose they had a target yield per unit time modulated by drop volume and spawn timer... they must be fiddling with them. Nice to know they're fine-tuning.

[Infernixx]

And you can go on the PTS and notice that you only get 2.

 

It's PTS. Probably busted. I'll take his word for it for now. If it makes it to live, then I'll believe that, instead.

[Daekarus]

It's PTS. Probably busted. I'll take his word for it for now. If it makes it to live, then I'll believe that, instead.

 

Come on now, I know everything doesn't always go the way they plan, but this seems a bit excessively gloomy. Do you have any specific reason to believe things haven't intentionally changed since the stream? After all, it makes more sense to lower the drop rate, increase the spawn rate, and therefore increase the stimulus for OWPvP and sink more play time.

Edited August 8, 2014 by Daekarus