Kaggath Battlegrounds Heats - Empire of Plagues vs Imperial Droid Division

[Silenceo]

Done in my faction breakdown.

 

All in all, AiR still has numbers advantage with fighters.

 

AiR - 1,896 fighters

IDD - 1,764 fighters

 

AiR has 130 more fighters. Which is a lot when you think about it.

 

Did you take into account the dart ship suiciders? If I recall correctly they basically are strapped to a rocket...doesn't sound too maneuverable, then again, it is essentially just an overgrown missile to ram into enemy ships.

 

What I meant, was how much of each do you approximate that you have?

 

Side Note: That is only about a 7.2% difference. Not terribly much...

Edited July 17, 2014 by Silenceo

[Warren-Stride]

Did you take into account the dart ship suiciders? If I recall correctly they basically are strapped to a rocket...doesn't sound too maneuverable, then again, it is essentially just an overgrown missile to ram into enemy ships.

 

What I meant, was how much of each do you approximate that you have?

 

Side Note: That is only about a 7.2% difference. Not terribly much...

 

Dartships were an all-purpose fighter used by the Gorog during the Dark Nest Crisis. It carried payloads of chemical explosives and was notorious for its ramming tactics. However, that was not its sole purpose. This starfighter alone filled all starfighter rolls (dog-fighter, bomber, etc.) for the Killik Hive. It was highly maneuverable with a hydrogen/ion powered engine similar to the TIE fighter series. It's not a giant missile. Nor are they solely used for suicide tactics.

 

I have not done the breakdown because I have nothing to base it on. Vong ship numbers are kinda irrelevant to this scenario. However, my initial impression is 8 - 1 - 1.

[Silenceo]

Warren, how do you plan on dealing with my fighter compliment? I merely ask because you seem so sure of it, yet I fail to see why. It always worries me when I am completely unable to see what others see...

[tunewalker]

Warren, how do you plan on dealing with my fighter compliment? I merely ask because you seem so sure of it, yet I fail to see why. It always worries me when I am completely unable to see what others see...

 

As far as I can tell his plan to handle fighters..... is fighters.... One issue is with the Smaller ships you have... you can clear the way for your own fighters thus the fact that your numbers are near equal now wowfully swings in your favor as your small capital ships (which wont last long) will swing the fighter edge in your favor... enough that it may work out.....

 

I will probably do my analysis in full tomorow or maybe later tonight.

Edited July 17, 2014 by tunewalker

[Silenceo]

As far as I can tell his plan to handle fighters..... is fighters....

 

http://collider.com/wp-content/image-base/Clubhouse/F/Funny_Pictures/slices/slice_star_wars_stormtrooper_facepalm_01.jpg

 

That only works well if the enemy does not have corvettes...which, granted, only me and one other do if I recall correctly...

[tunewalker]

http://collider.com/wp-content/image-base/Clubhouse/F/Funny_Pictures/slices/slice_star_wars_stormtrooper_facepalm_01.jpg

 

That only works well if the enemy does not have corvettes...which, granted, only me and one other do if I recall correctly...

 

Or he massively out numbers your fighters... which he doesnt...

[Silenceo]

Or he massively out numbers your fighters... which he doesnt...

 

Yeah, though I will pick back up on the whole space thing tomorrow, have a final exam in the morning... So need extra sleep.

Edited July 17, 2014 by Silenceo

[tunewalker]

Yeah, though I will pick back up on the whole space thing tomorrow, have a final exam in the morning... So need extra sleep.

 

Take care get some sleep.

[LadyKulvax]

So what happened to the LoT being nerfed? I mean this thing in the right situation just solos the whole enemy fleet, if that ain't OP I don't know what is?

[Beniboybling]

Beni, the Vong ships had a terrible rate of fire, and every shot moved their vessel, I seriously have no idea why you're saying their fighter defenses are near Equal, the IDD's anti fighter Light cruisers would mop up the Vong ships with ease, the EoP has no counter to the Fighters possessed.

They have dovin basals...

[Beniboybling]

Change that to 1000 armor piercing bullets and its almost to scale. Even Light Turbolasers do damage to unshielded/protected hulls Warren. They are not the sluggers of say the heavy weaponry of a Imperial MK-II. But they still get the job done. It is more of a *we will overload your defenses* than a *your defenses are too strong*. Its not like they are using water guns... What is different between the Yorik coral on the star fighters, and that on the larger ships? Age? Sheer size? No Warren, Light Turbolasers will still do damage, they will fire often, but they will not be like the slow pounding from heavy turbo lasers...

 

We already hear plenty of Vong worship all over the internet, we do not need it to be overblown here as well. It is impressive, very impressive in fact. But it is not the *rofl trollzz* strength that it can merely wade through turbo laser fire, no matter its power.

 

Side Note: As for thinking my fighter compliment will be 100% ineffective against your larger ships...I...I can't help it... *face palm* Fighter compliments won more wars than capital ships themselves. It was often star fighters who took out vong ships, it was they who discovered their weaknesses. It is even their tactic that allowed the New Republic to out maneuver, flank, and destroy Vong vessels. And I have quite heavy bomber/elite fighters indeed...As for the TIE/D do not underestimate it, for a TIE/D Automated it is heavily armored/shielded as well as a small, extremely agile target. It might only have 2 light laser cannons, but these things rarely attack alone. If I may quote Obi-Wan...

 

"They will soon be back, and in greater numbers."

Silenceo, its not unheard of for small lightly armed fighters to be shrugged off by larger Destroyer grade ships.

 

I'm not sure how the hull and internal systems of the Vong ships work, its just a big organic mass and I'd hazard a guess and say you'd have to tear it to pieces to put an end to it, blasting off bits of fleshy mass won't do much...

 

Maybe we could have some examples, I just can't see fighters taking down Vong ships.

[Beniboybling]

So what happened to the LoT being nerfed? I mean this thing in the right situation just solos the whole enemy fleet, if that ain't OP I don't know what is?

*shrug* It didn't seem that OP to me. Going to post what Silenceo said in regards to it here:

 

Besides, Legacy of Torment will not be able to survive me! It is a living organism, meaning that my terrible rhyming will slay it before it can even say supercalafragalisticextraaldocious ten times over by the square root of pi!

 

Side Note: You could likely get battle-cruisers though. Quite a few of them would be allowed by the rules. Such as the Praetor, Mediator, Allegiance, Procurator classes and ect. Matter of fact, looking at the stats of a Kor Chokk, they would have very thinly dispersed weaponry making it vulnerable to bombers. I think I read that they only have around 120 or so Yaret-Kor *plasma volcanoes* spread over over 8,000 m. Granted, it does come with 216+ coral skippers.

 

Math Rant: To put this into perspective, lets compare it to an Executor class Super Star Destroyer. It has aproximately 5000 weapons and is about 19000 m long. If we do 19000/5000 we get 3.8. We then have to double that number *since it had weapons mainly on its top and bottom* we then have about 7.6. That means that size to weapon ratio that every 7.6 meters or so was another weapon, if my math is correct. Granted, it would likely be closer to ten once you included the thin trenches on either side of the vessel that had a bit of the turrets. A Kor Chokk however, is only listed as having around 120 weapons, but lets be generous and assume it is a veteran Kor Chokk *like the Terror would likely be* and give it aproximately say...1000 weapons. It is very spherical but to make it easy I will be doing the math as if it was a cube *for simplicity sake, just has to cover the same angles*. so 8000/120 = 67 meters between each weapon. Sounds fantastic, right? Well, that is before we take the other sides into consideration. So 67x4 = 267m. Give or take a few. 267 meters between weapons to cover its angles. Compared to a SSD that is rather sad, not to mention the majority can not be used at once. Kor Chokk may have been considered the Vong version of a SSD, but in size only. Their offensive potential due to the design would not be quite as effective.

 

After Thought: Don't forget though that if you opt out of the option for a Flagship you automatically get a boost to your fleet numbers. Can't find the exact rule, or the exact amount, but my gut seems to remember 20% but do not quote me on that %, unless of course you can find the reference, that I seem to have misplaced... *unless it was changed after the rulebook was released*

 

I edited the math because the Legacy does in fact have only 120 weapons. Anyway Silenceo is right, it would be very vulnerable to fighter/bombers which could easily dodge all its weapons and just meander along its "hull."

 

I might add to that that considering its analog is an SSD and has been said to be as powerful, it's frontal firepower should only be roughly a quarter of the SSDs firepower which would be approx. 1,000 turbolaser batteries, and lets throw in 62 concussion missile launchers as well. Powerful yes but permissible by the rules.

[Selenial]

Ignoring the fact that due to its size, it one shots every ship Silenceo has.

 

Seems legit.

 

I'm seriously trying to figure out how warrens got away with this, either she's got beni wrapped around her finger, or he's legitimately terrified of upsetting her.

I'm really not sure, but however she's doing it, I want in.

Edited July 17, 2014 by Selenial

[Beniboybling]

I'm seriously trying to figure out how warrens got away with this, either she's got beni wrapped around her finger, or he's legitimately terrified of upsetting her.

I'm really not sure, but however she's doing it, I want in.

Wookiee-ookiees, lots and lots of Wookiee-ookiees.

[Selenial]

Wookiee-ookiees, lots and lots of Wookiee-ookiees.

 

Still ignoring the fact that it's stupidly OP, and actually Bigger than a Super Star Destroyer. It's even classed as a space station.

 

I do wonder how she got this passed you. Especially after literally all of us complained in the thread, and you said you'd nerf it....

Edited July 17, 2014 by Selenial

[Beniboybling]

Still ignoring the fact that it's stupidly OP, and actually Bigger than a Star Destroyer. It's even classed as a space station.

 

I do wonder how she got this passed you. Especially after literally all of us complained in the thread, and you said you'd nerf it....

I allowed the Legacy of Torment because

 

1. It is recorded as having the same armament as a normal Kor Chokk so nerfing in that respect would do nothing.
    
    
   
2. According to yourself it was a "pitifully weak excuse for a flagship".
    
    
   
3. Silenceo, who ironically is now up against it, has no qualms at its use and put forward a reasoned argument for why it is not as OP as everyone thought it was - along with my own thoughts which I just posted.
    
    
   
4. It would come at the cost of a 20% reduction to Warren's entire force, which was already thin on numbers.
    
    
   
5. Warren gave me Wookiee-ookiees.
   

In so far it doesn't seem to have had much of a negative impact on the debate, and counter tactics have already been supplied by myself and Silenceo, who I am sure is prepared to argue his side. And unless it does cause serious problems, I won't be making any changes, so unless you want Wookiee-ookiees there is nothing left to discuss.

Edited July 17, 2014 by Beniboybling

[Selenial]

I allowed the Legacy of Torment because

 

1. It is recorded as having the same armament as a normal Kor Chokk so nerfing in that respect would do nothing.
    
    
   
2. According to yourself it was a "pitifully weak excuse for a flagship".
    
    
   
3. Silenceo, who ironically is now up against it, has no qualms at its use and put forward a reasoned argument for why it is not as OP as everyone thought it was - along with my own thoughts which I just posted.
    
    
   
4. It would come at the cost of a 20% reduction to Warren's entire force, which was already thin on numbers.
    
    
   
5. Warren gave me Wookiee-ookiees.
   

In so far it doesn't seem to have had much of a negative impact on the debate, and counter tactics have already been supplied by myself and Silenceo, who I am sure is prepared to argue his side. And unless it does cause serious problems, I won't be making any changes, so unless you want Wookiee-ookiees there is nothing left to discuss.

 

I said it's pitifully bad when nerfed, Stupidly OP when left alone.

 

The weapons grow in power with the size of the ship, so whilst they're few and far between, They're stupidly powerful and can tear through any Vessel.

 

Let's not forget the worst part, that when that thing crashed it destroyed a planet. If it explodes in space, it'd likely envelop both fleets, so Warrens got an "If I lose, everyone loses" card.

[Silenceo]

Just wanted to mention that math is a bit off... I used 4 instead of 6 for the sides. *so instead of front, back, left, right, top, bottom, I only did front, back, right, left.* So it is evenly more thinly placed than I previously calculated. Curse me and my small errors!

 

67x4=268

67x6=402

Edited July 17, 2014 by Silenceo

[Beniboybling]

Let's not forget the worst part, that when that thing crashed it destroyed a planet. If it explodes in space, it'd likely envelop both fleets, so Warrens got an "If I lose, everyone loses" card.

It was the size of the vessel as opposed to its explosive capabilities that did not destroy the planet but caused forest fires. We have no reason to believe it will blow up if destroyed, not even SSDs do that.

[Selenial]

It was the size of the vessel as opposed to its explosive capabilities that did not destroy the planet but caused forest fires. We have no reason to believe it will blow up if destroyed, not even SSDs do that.

 

Actually, it caused intense Planet Sweeping fires.

 

And the way it's described makes it look like a literal wave of plasma that poured across and ignited the world, IIRC.

Edited July 17, 2014 by Selenial

[Beniboybling]

Actually, it caused intense Planet Sweeping fires.

 

And the way it's described makes it look like a literal wave of plasma that poured across and ignited the world, IIRC.

Alright intense planet sweeping forest fires.

 

Well that is what one would expect when a vessel of that size and constitution impacts on the planet, the sheer amount of energy being released with ignite and obliterate the thing. That is not the same as being crippled in space.

 

Compare it do the death of an SSD, in space it just falls apart, when it hit the Death Star it exploded.

[Selenial]

Alright intense planet sweeping forest fires.

 

Well that is what one would expect when a vessel of that size and constitution impacts on the planet, the sheer amount of energy being released with ignite and obliterate the thing. That is not the same as being crippled in space.

 

Compare it do the death of an SSD, in space it just falls apart, when it hit the Death Star it exploded.

 

Except an SSD doesn't have that kind of weaponry.

 

We've seen Star Destroyers crash into planets and barely make a dent before, it's obviously the type of Vessel that it is.

 

Also stop trying to be funny, if you knew what you're talking about it couldn't have been forest fires, as the entire planet had already been rendered lifeless. Therefore, the only thing it could ignite would be it's own fuel, so the raging planet wide fires was JUST the ship dying.

[Warren-Stride]

I'm seriously trying to figure out how warrens got away with this, either she's got beni wrapped around her finger, or he's legitimately terrified of upsetting her.

I'm really not sure, but however she's doing it, I want in.

 

For the record, Beni encouraged me to use Vong ships to fit with the theme of the faction. Originally, my space force was a cross between Killik ships and Ssi-Ruuvi ships.

 

I realize and fully understand that Vong tech is, in of itself, over powered. But look at the numbers difference. And, more importantly, look at the debaters difference. Everyone on these forums is bent on proving that Vong ships can be defeated, so who does that leave to support the Vong ships? Just me (and Canino to an extent).

 

I got very, very good ships, yes. But I also get less support, both in the Kaggath and from the other debaters on these forums. I'm paying the price.

Edited July 17, 2014 by Warren-Stride

[Selenial]

For the record, Beni encouraged me to use Vong ships to fit with the theme of the faction. Originally, my space force was a cross between Killik ships and Ssi-Ruuvi ships.

 

I realize and fully understand that Vong tech is, in of itself, over powered. But look at the numbers difference. And, more importantly, look at the debaters difference. Everyone on these forums is bent on proving that Vong ships can be defeated, so who does that leave to support the Vong ships? Just me.

 

I got very, very good ships, yes. But I also get less support, both in the Kaggath and from the other debaters on these forums. I'm paying the price.

 

Right you are, we all hate Vong tech.

 

However you can't go play the numbers card whilst your trying to say that No amount of fire all the enemies ships put together could breach the ship.

 

And I know how it feels, I had literally no support for my first Kaggath, not because I had Traya but because my enemy had Vader. My only two supports were Beni and Aurbere, one was too busy, one was forced to be neutral.

 

It happens.

 

Edit: However, at least I now know how to direct my pitchforks at.

Edited July 17, 2014 by Selenial

[LadyKulvax]

I do see one thing, the I.D.D's fighters are damn fast, they could essentially bypass enemy fighter screens and swarm the LoT, if need be just repeatedly dive bomb the fighters into the same area over and over till it's crippled.