Silenceo Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 (edited) The issue is, even if there's not counter-fighter on the scale of what the IDD has, the IDD fighters are not capable of doing any damage at all to the Vong ships. The majority of the IDD fighters have two light laser cannons. LIGHT laser cannons. Similarly, the main weapon on IDD capital ships are LIGHT turbolaser batteries. Think of it like this. You're trying to take down a tank. You can use 1000 bullets or 10 missiles. Which will do more damage? Obviously the missiles. No matter how many bullets you send at a tank, it will keep on comin'. The IDD has bullets. AiR has missiles. Yaret-kors are going to tear through shields and any ships in their way. But the light weaponry of the IDD is going to be basically non-consequential to the extremely durable yorik coral on the Vong ships. Change that to 1000 armor piercing bullets and its almost to scale. Even Light Turbolasers do damage to unshielded/protected hulls Warren. They are not the sluggers of say the heavy weaponry of a Imperial MK-II. But they still get the job done. It is more of a *we will overload your defenses* than a *your defenses are too strong*. Its not like they are using water guns... What is different between the Yorik coral on the star fighters, and that on the larger ships? Age? Sheer size? No Warren, Light Turbolasers will still do damage, they will fire often, but they will not be like the slow pounding from heavy turbo lasers... We already hear plenty of Vong worship all over the internet, we do not need it to be overblown here as well. It is impressive, very impressive in fact. But it is not the *rofl trollzz* strength that it can merely wade through turbo laser fire, no matter its power. Side Note: As for thinking my fighter compliment will be 100% ineffective against your larger ships...I...I can't help it... *face palm* Fighter compliments won more wars than capital ships themselves. It was often star fighters who took out vong ships, it was they who discovered their weaknesses. It is even their tactic that allowed the New Republic to out maneuver, flank, and destroy Vong vessels. And I have quite heavy bomber/elite fighters indeed...As for the TIE/D do not underestimate it, for a TIE/D Automated it is heavily armored/shielded as well as a small, extremely agile target. It might only have 2 light laser cannons, but these things rarely attack alone. If I may quote Obi-Wan... "They will soon be back, and in greater numbers." Edited July 17, 2014 by Silenceo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 Play the numbers difference Silenceo... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warren-Stride Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 I think the thing to remember here is that the anti-fighter defenses on the IDD ships are just that: anti-fighter defenses. So if the AiR fighters aren't attacking the larger ships, those turrets are a non-issue. The large yaret-kors of the big ships will be taking care of those ships. AiR's main fighter defense comes from the AiR's fighters themselves. The quality difference is striking. The argument has been made that Tartan's could join the dogfight, but in order to do so they must first cross the expanse of space between the AiR forces and the IDD forces, as will the other IDD fighters. During this race across the open space between the two, yaret-kors will quickly gun down these Tartan's and smash through the horde of IDD fighters incoming. Keep in mind there are over 500 yaret-kors trained on the IDD fleet. It was common practice, for example on a Miid Ro'ik, for the fighters to stay close to the ship to defend it from enemy starfighters. Which means that the IDD will have to come to the AiR if they want their fighters to do anything at all. But once they're on the AiR's side of the field and away from the anti-starfighter defenses of their capital ships, it'll be open season for the mentally connected, much better armed AiR forces. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karadron Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 *we will overload your defenses* This is one of the best strategies when facing the vong. It was one of the first used to counter them. The Dovin Basal can only do so much, they are a living thing and do tire. Too many lasers coming at them, no matter how weak will hurt the ships in some way, shape, or form. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warren-Stride Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 Change that to 1000 armor piercing bullets and its almost to scale. Even Light Turbolasers do damage to unshielded/protected hulls Warren. They are not the sluggers of say the heavy weaponry of a Imperial MK-II. But they still get the job done. It is more of a *we will overload your defenses* than a *your defenses are too strong*. Its not like they are using water guns... What is different between the Yorik coral on the star fighters, and that on the larger ships? Age? Sheer size? No Warren, Light Turbolasers will still do damage, they will fire often, but they will not be like the slow pounding from heavy turbo lasers... The Miid Ro'ik, in particular, secreted black ooze over its hull that hardened into glossy, armored plates that were resistant to blaster fire (of all types - especially the light kind) and collisions. I'm not saying yorik coral, the main hull for most Vong ships, is impenetrable. But It's no weaker than armoring of ships made out of metal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 The Miid Ro'ik, in particular, secreted black ooze over its hull that hardened into glossy, armored plates that were resistant to blaster fire (of all types - especially the light kind) and collisions. I'm not saying yorik coral, the main hull for most Vong ships, is impenetrable. But It's no weaker than armoring of ships made out of metal. Correct the armoring is no weaker then that made of metal.... its the shielding that the issue... but the Dovin Basals ACT as that shielding.... Which is why I still stand by them being equivlent to the ships that the Wookie pages EQUATED them to.... Its possible to overwhelm their defenses just like its possible to overwhelm an Imp I's Shields and armor.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silenceo Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 I think the thing to remember here is that the anti-fighter defenses on the IDD ships are just that: anti-fighter defenses. So if the AiR fighters aren't attacking the larger ships, those turrets are a non-issue. The large yaret-kors of the big ships will be taking care of those ships. You seem to be forgetting they have much more than just anti-fighter defenses warren... And as I have previously mentioned, shots taken at the capital ships likely could be brought down by the point defenses if there are not fighters/bombers nearby to worry about. The vong shoot large, dumb missiles. Albeit deadly missiles, they are still physical missiles. Point defenses were INVENTED for that sort of scenario... AiR's main fighter defense comes from the AiR's fighters themselves. The quality difference is striking. The argument has been made that Tartan's could join the dogfight, but in order to do so they must first cross the expanse of space between the AiR forces and the IDD forces, as will the other IDD fighters. During this race across the open space between the two, yaret-kors will quickly gun down these Tartan's and smash through the horde of IDD fighters incoming. Keep in mind there are over 500 yaret-kors trained on the IDD fleet. The...wait...Serious? Are you...Your serious? *collects self for a moment* Ok, So what matches the Skipray? What even APPROACHES the Shadow droid? Are you going off of the fact that there are A LOT of TIE/D? Have you forgotten that they are hooked right into the signals that the Shadow droids use? Each Shadow droid is an Imperial ace amped up by the dark side, the most advanced science of the time, as well as the reflexes of droids, the creativity of a organic... Due to their droid like nature as well as their connection to the force, their link to the TIE/D will allow them to take these extremely agile, relatively heavily armored/defended fighters, and turn them into MONSTERS. Outright MONSTERS. Also, congrats on the 500...From my Vindicators alone I have...lets see... 500 light turbo lasers, 400 light quad turbo lasers, as well as the 400 turbo point defense, and 400 ion point defense... Add in the strikes for 180 turbo laser cannons, 90 turbo laser batteries, and 90 ion cannons. Not even taking into account the Vengeance which specializes in completely SMACKING DOWN anything smaller than a star destroyer... Now considering the power, this normally wouldn't be too bad of a difference. But Warren, you forgot something. Vong did not focus their weapons like the Imperials did. The Imperials tried to make most of their weapons usable at one time on almost all of their warships. The vong...spread them out, covering all angles... So cut down your number by about 1/6 for front only mounted weaponry. Or perhaps a little more for those that are on the side but can get a good angle. You do NOT have any advantage what so ever to speak of here. Its weapons pound for pound are much deadlier, but the amount they are out numbered...its just... by god! It was common practice, for example on a Miid Ro'ik, for the fighters to stay close to the ship to defend it from enemy starfighters. Which means that the IDD will have to come to the AiR if they want their fighters to do anything at all. But once they're on the AiR's side of the field and away from the anti-starfighter defenses of their capital ships, it'll be open season for the mentally connected, much better armed AiR forces. What makes you think my fighters will go off 100% alone like fools? They might be droids, but they know not to chase targets that refuse to leave their capital ships. The thing is, even mentally connected, your space forces suffer from being...well...only organics... The entire fighter compliment of the IDD can out maneuver them so bad it is not even funny.... With the aid of the Shadow droids, they will not be easy to fool either... Side Note: I was getting to it Selenial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warren-Stride Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 Correct the armoring is no weaker then that made of metal.... its the shielding that the issue... but the Dovin Basals ACT as that shielding.... Which is why I still stand by them being equivlent to the ships that the Wookie pages EQUATED them to.... Its possible to overwhelm their defenses just like its possible to overwhelm an Imp I's Shields and armor.... But how effective is a Corellian Corvette's turbolaser against a Star Destroy shield or hull? Because Corellian Corvetts are outfitted with the same kind of turbolaser as the IDD's capital ships are. I think we can all agree that the Corellian Corvette's firepower is severely outclassed by an Imp II's shielding and armor. It's the same issue here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silenceo Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 (edited) But how effective is a Corellian Corvette's turbolaser against a Star Destroy shield or hull? Because Corellian Corvetts are outfitted with the same kind of turbolaser as the IDD's capital ships are. I think we can all agree that the Corellian Corvette's firepower is severely outclassed by an Imp II's shielding and armor. It's the same issue here. Oh and here we are with the same number of- wait... The Vindicators were designed to be able to respond when an Imperial class was not available, and smaller craft were not enough. And a Vindicator would easily own a Corellian Corvette as well... Side Note: Do not forget that the dart ships are almost worthless in any dogfights, which would also give my own compliment an easy numbers advantage. Even then, when they try to dive bomb, they would be priority 1 for the point defenses... Do not underestimate the ability of the tartans...they were small, fast, agile, packed a punch vs fighters, and had a narrow profile... They are quite agile enough to evade molten projectiles much like the fighters themselves... Edited July 17, 2014 by Silenceo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warren-Stride Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 I'm not going to warrant an argument that is disrespectful to me as an individual with a response. What makes you think my fighters will go off 100% alone like fools? They might be droids, but they know not to chase targets that refuse to leave their capital ships. The thing is, even mentally connected, your space forces suffer from being...well...only organics... The entire fighter compliment of the IDD can out maneuver them so bad it is not even funny.... With the aid of the Shadow droids, they will not be easy to fool either... See, this is where you lose me. Firstly, droids alone have NEVER been proven to out maneuver biological beings - even those that were not working in tandem and had to communicate through comms rather than mental telepathy. Second, you just said that your pilots are relying on the BIOLOGICAL part of the Shadow Droids to function optimally. Doesn't sound like even you believe that droids can handle themselves. Also, I'm a bit suspicious about your fighter numbers. As far as I know, you aren't allowed to dictate how many are which type. Almost all Imperial navies (and considering you insist that your fleet is simply a section of that larger Imperial navy) were almost exclusively TIE fighters. With a couple bombers and maybe a fighter destroy (elite) thrown in there. You seem to have the impression that you will have many Shadow Droids and Skiprays, when the opposite is more likely true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karadron Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 Oh and here we are with the same number of- wait... The Vindicators were designed to be able to respond when an Imperial class was not available, and smaller craft were not enough. And a Vindicator would easily own a Corellian Corvette as well. If I learned anything Empire at War it was that those Corellian Corvettes are the most intimidating ship in the galaxy. They hold power that you can only imagine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warren-Stride Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 Do not underestimate the ability of the tartans...they were small, fast, agile, packed a punch vs fighters, and had a narrow profile... They are quite agile enough to evade molten projectiles much like the fighters themselves... It's 250 meters long. And not exactly skinny. It's a MUCH bigger target than a fighter, and although it might have good speed, its maneuverability isn't stellar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warren-Stride Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 Side Note: Do not forget that the dart ships are almost worthless in any dogfights, which would also give my own compliment an easy numbers advantage. Even then, when they try to dive bomb, they would be priority 1 for the point defenses... Dartships, while primarily useful for their bombing abilities, also had other weaponry. They were the only starfighters of the Dark Nest and obviously had dog-fights with other starfighters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silenceo Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 I'm not going to warrant an argument that is disrespectful to me as an individual with a response. See, this is where you lose me. Firstly, droids alone have NEVER been proven to out maneuver biological beings - even those that were not working in tandem and had to communicate through comms rather than mental telepathy. Except that is exactly what both TIE/D and Shadow droids have done multiple times. They have out maneuvered and flown organic pilots on every occasion. The only reason the TIE/D was not fit for future use, was the fact it was unable to think quite well enough to use its maneuvering as well as it should. Second, you just said that your pilots are relying on the BIOLOGICAL part of the Shadow Droids to function optimally. Doesn't sound like even you believe that droids can handle themselves. For all intents and purposes the Shadow Droids are Cyborgs. They have been completely stripped of their humanity leaving their skills which then were severely augmented by droid reflexes. Add to that the ability to touch the dark side... Also, I'm a bit suspicious about your fighter numbers. As far as I know, you aren't allowed to dictate how many are which type. Almost all Imperial navies (and considering you insist that your fleet is simply a section of that larger Imperial navy) were almost exclusively TIE fighters. With a couple bombers and maybe a fighter destroy (elite) thrown in there. You seem to have the impression that you will have many Shadow Droids and Skiprays, when the opposite is more likely true. For Imperial navies there was a very standard layout....4 fighter - 1 bomber - 1 interceptor/elite So essentially the forces are divided into 1/6's with 4/6 being the TIE/D, 1/6 being Shadow Droids, and 1/6 being Skiprays. Responses above in gray as usual. Do not underestimate the TIE/D...it took freaking Rogue Squadron to defeat them on Dac...before they arrived they basically were reigning supreme, and this is without being connected to Shadow Droids... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 But how effective is a Corellian Corvette's turbolaser against a Star Destroy shield or hull? Because Corellian Corvetts are outfitted with the same kind of turbolaser as the IDD's capital ships are. I think we can all agree that the Corellian Corvette's firepower is severely outclassed by an Imp II's shielding and armor. It's the same issue here. They had an effect on it, but the Turbo lasers werent in enough numbers to do real Harm to an Imp II. The 2 strike-class matched 1 Victory... and as far as I am away 2 or 3 of the ships he has Matched an Imperial... 2 Probably matching an Imp I 3 probably matching an Imp II. He does out number you... and with those numbers it is most assuredly possible to overcome your defenses, but you are correct in the fact that I have not looked into it enough to be sure....but the main point is damage CAN be done with similar firepower that would have damaged an Imp class. there was a reason it wasnt just an all out ROFL stomp against the Galactic alliance. We need to keep that in mind. Of course by no means are the Vong ships weak... but they arent really any stronger then a ship of their analog either.... same power achieved in a different way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silenceo Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 Just thought I would toss in the fact that Corellian Corvettes only had 6 turrets...Even then, not all of them could be used at once. They are a BLOCKADE RUNNER, not a battle ship. 6 guns, that is just about as many as my Skiprays for petes sake... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warren-Stride Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 (edited) For Imperial navies there was a very standard layout....4 fighter - 1 bomber - 1 interceptor/elite. So essentially the forces are divided into 1/6's with 4/6 being the TIE/D, 1/6 being Shadow Droids, and 1/6 being Skiprays. Source? For the Imperial-II Star Destroyers I'm seeing 72 TIE fighters (TIE/D), 12 TIE bombers (Skiprays), and 5 assault gunboats (Shadow Droids). Which is about the same number of fighters your ships have. So that's more like a 8 - 1.5 - .5 ratio. Eight TIE/D for every two Skipray for every one Shadow Droid. Being generous. Edited July 17, 2014 by Warren-Stride Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silenceo Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 Source? For the Imperial-II Star Destroyers I'm seeing 72 TIE fighters (TIE/D), 12 TIE bombers (Skiprays), and 5 assault gunboats (Shadow Droids). Which is about the same number of fighters you ships have. So that's more like a 8 - 1.5 - .5 ratio. Eight TIE/D for every two Skipray for every one Shadow Droid. Being generous. Except that is not their fighter compliment. A normal Imperial Class carried approximately 12 Bombers, 12 Interceptors, and 48 Fighters. Fighters = TIE/D Bombers = Skipray Interceptors = substituted for Elite, aka Shadow Droids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warren-Stride Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 Except that is not their fighter compliment. A normal Imperial Class carried approximately 12 Bombers, 12 Interceptors, and 48 Fighters. Fighters = TIE/D Bombers = Skipray Interceptors = substituted for Elite, aka Shadow Droids. Source? What "normal" Imperial Class? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silenceo Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 Source? What "normal" Imperial Class? As I have said numerous times I do not own a source book, so I must rely on others or the Wikis... "The standard wing included four TIE Fighter squadrons (one squadron often referred to be a reconnaissance squadron of TIE/rc starfighters), one squadron of TIE Interceptors, one squadron of TIE Bombers (lower priority ships had to make do with TIE/gt starfighter-bombers). Often one or two flights in a fighter squadron were TIE/fc starfighters. Sometimes one of the fighter squadrons was used for training purposes. By the Battle of Endor, one of these fighter squadrons had been phased out in favor of a second squadron of TIE Interceptors.[25]" Which equates out to the ratio I gave you earlier, 4-1-1... *Though, it sometimes was modified, but was not common* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 (edited) You are both right... the 72 fighters you and warren are talking about when it says 72 fighters... is split as you say Silenceo.... but IN ADDITION to that TIE wing... the other ships existed as well. They had 1 Wing composed of 4 squads TIE1 squad Interecepter1 squad bomberIN ADDITION there was 1 squad of bombers and 5 assualt gunboats. But a standard imperial Wing, which i believe is housed in ONE of Sil's ships (dont remember which one.) Is 411.as he suggests. Edited July 17, 2014 by tunewalker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silenceo Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 You are both right... the 72 fighters you and warren are talking about when it says 72 fighters... is split as you say Silenceo.... but IN ADDITION to that TIE wing... the other ships existed as well. They had 1 Wing composed of 4 squads TIE 1 squad Interecepter 1 squad bomber IN ADDITION there was 1 squad of bombers and 5 assualt gunboats. But a standard imperial Wing, which i believe is housed in ONE of Sil's ships (dont remember which one.) Is 4 1 1. Vindicators each had 72 compliment, and Strikes had 36 for each vessel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 Vindicators each had 72 compliment, and Strikes had 36 for each vessel. The strikes are probably all just straight fighters.... maybe 1 squad of bombers... unlikely interceptors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silenceo Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 This reminds me...what is the fighter compliment divide for the EoP? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warren-Stride Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 (edited) This reminds me...what is the fighter compliment divide for the EoP? Done in my faction breakdown. All in all, AiR still has numbers advantage with fighters. AiR - 1,896 fighters IDD - 1,764 fighters AiR has 130 more fighters. Which is a lot when you think about it. Edited July 17, 2014 by Warren-Stride Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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