Best gunship-hunting...gunship?

[MaximilianPower]

I'm no theorycrafter, just a guy who goes out and shoots a bunch of stuff. I play a lot of GS...equal parts failgun, lolgun, and fungun these days. Frequently I'm targeted by opposing gunships (and rightly so); often I recognize the better GS pilots before the match begins, and I know exactly what to expect.

 

Got me thinking - which gunship build is best at combating other gunships? For the purpose of this exercise, let's assume I'm facing a lolgun running the classic ion/slug combo. Neither he nor I get the drop on the other; we're going to begin hammering one another simultaneously. So what's my best choice:

 

- do I match lolgun with lolgun? Seems like the easy answer: ion + slug, rinse & repeat until dead? And hope the other guy isn't as quick as I am?

- failgun? fully charged plasma + repeated slugs is pretty devastating. plasma + protorp can be effective too, especially on a stationary GS.

- fungun? take a slug shot then barrel towards the enemy, tag him with interdiction and blast away?

 

There may not a simple answer here, just wondering what you folks think.

[Nemarus]

I'm no theorycrafter, just a guy who goes out and shoots a bunch of stuff. I play a lot of GS...equal parts failgun, lolgun, and fungun these days. Frequently I'm targeted by opposing gunships (and rightly so); often I recognize the better GS pilots before the match begins, and I know exactly what to expect.

 

Got me thinking - which gunship build is best at combating other gunships? For the purpose of this exercise, let's assume I'm facing a lolgun running the classic ion/slug combo. Neither he nor I get the drop on the other; we're going to begin hammering one another simultaneously. So what's my best choice:

 

- do I match lolgun with lolgun? Seems like the easy answer: ion + slug, rinse & repeat until dead? And hope the other guy isn't as quick as I am?

- failgun? fully charged plasma + repeated slugs is pretty devastating. plasma + protorp can be effective too, especially on a stationary GS.

- fungun? take a slug shot then barrel towards the enemy, tag him with interdiction and blast away?

 

There may not a simple answer here, just wondering what you folks think.

 

Ion is powerful against any Gunship because of the energy drain, which will hinder their ability to shoot back.

 

That being said, Directional Shield (available on T2 and T3) can be great for Gunship duels. With a Large Reactor, your Gunship would have 2380 shields per arc.

 

At the start of a duel, have your shields balanced. Even if your opponent gets the jump on you with a fully charged ion, you'll still have 530 on the affected arc, and 2380 on the other arc. As you turn to face your attacker, you angle your shield strength forward, pushing your shields on that arc to 2910. Another fully charged ion would reduce this to 1060. Assuming your opponent then switches to slug, you'd take 493 damage from shield piercing and 207 from what's left after your shields.

 

So after three shots, you've taken a total of 700 hull damage, though you're out of energy and can't hope to fight back or flee.

 

If you'd been running Distortion Field instead, your would've had 1870 shields on an arc. The first Ion Railgun hit would leave you with 20 shields left the affected arc. The followup slug would destroy you.

 

The nice thing is that your opponent doesn't know what kind of shields you have ... if they assume you are running Distortion Field, then they might do Ion then Slug. If you were actually running Directional Shields (and angled them toward your attacker), an Ion then a Slug would leave you with 1643 shields (though you'd still take 493 hull damage from shield piercing.

[Fractalsponge]

I'm no theorycrafter, just a guy who goes out and shoots a bunch of stuff. I play a lot of GS...equal parts failgun, lolgun, and fungun these days. Frequently I'm targeted by opposing gunships (and rightly so); often I recognize the better GS pilots before the match begins, and I know exactly what to expect.

 

Got me thinking - which gunship build is best at combating other gunships? For the purpose of this exercise, let's assume I'm facing a lolgun running the classic ion/slug combo. Neither he nor I get the drop on the other; we're going to begin hammering one another simultaneously. So what's my best choice:

 

- do I match lolgun with lolgun? Seems like the easy answer: ion + slug, rinse & repeat until dead? And hope the other guy isn't as quick as I am?

- failgun? fully charged plasma + repeated slugs is pretty devastating. plasma + protorp can be effective too, especially on a stationary GS.

- fungun? take a slug shot then barrel towards the enemy, tag him with interdiction and blast away?

 

There may not a simple answer here, just wondering what you folks think.

 

The key is surprise. First shot generally wins gunship duels. Don't mess around with partial shots either - make sure you kill it. Wingman helps a lot to land that first shot, but then you lose Running Interference, so YMMV.

 

Ion/Slug is better if possible, but Slug/Slug if you're in a T3 is fine. A fun way to do it on a T3 is to use retros when you see them charge on you, after you land your first shot. Then you can save DField for follow-up shooting, and give you more time under evasion cover.

 

If the first shot misses, or you're going to get hit and can't tank it or have a cooldown ready, barrel roll towards them and BLC the target. Most gunships are worthless up close. I've killed several turtling gunships in a row by bull rushing them in a Mangler and BLC-ing them to death. Many pilots will even continue to charge their railguns at you even at knife fight range (see previous comment about people being worthless).

Edited June 27, 2014 by Fractalsponge

[MaximilianPower]

Good stuff, both of you. @Nemarus - originally I thought a T2 with directionals wouldn't be anywhere near as good as a T1/ion versus gunships, but I've been playing the T2 quite a bit lately and I find it to be surprisingly effective. I do miss the second missile break, but those shields are pretty dang tough (as your numbers bear out). Any thoughts on weaponry loadout? I will say, personally, I find very little in GSF quite as entertaining as landing a fully-charged plasma hit and watching the victim zoom around trying to figure out where the DOT is coming from. The panic is palpable. I think I average one opponent's self-destruct per TDM when I use this build. Plasma + DO yields approximately double the amusement.

 

@Fractalsponge - yes, agreed, surprise is key...nine times out of ten, if I get the drop on a GS, I win (or, similarly, if I'm the one who gets surprised, I'm usually dead). But that's why this exercise specifically eliminates surprise as a factor. I often find myself stalking the better GS pilots...I always try to know where they are, and they always seem to know where I am. No surprise there. Hence my question. I have been running wingman on all my gunships of late, and it's definitely made a difference at least as far as accuracy goes. Also - as above - another top-5 entertaining GSF moment is surprising enemy gunships with a bull rush/BLCs while in a GS. They never expect it; often they're like a deer in headlights. It's hilarious.

[Fractalsponge]

@Fractalsponge - yes, agreed, surprise is key...nine times out of ten, if I get the drop on a GS, I win (or, similarly, if I'm the one who gets surprised, I'm usually dead). But that's why this exercise specifically eliminates surprise as a factor. I often find myself stalking the better GS pilots...I always try to know where they are, and they always seem to know where I am. No surprise there. Hence my question. I have been running wingman on all my gunships of late, and it's definitely made a difference at least as far as accuracy goes. Also - as above - another top-5 entertaining GSF moment is surprising enemy gunships with a bull rush/BLCs while in a GS. They never expect it; often they're like a deer in headlights. It's hilarious.

 

The no-surprise thing should NOT happen very often if you play it right. The only way to do that is if you have all your cooldowns up. Otherwise it's too risky. If you absolutely have to, save up your engine pool, boost to just under 15km and charge. When you see them start to glow, DField and RI up, and land your first shot. If it fails, you have to be ready to leave, immediately, or charge them and come to close quarters. Gunships simply will not last long enough to trade railgun fire.

 

The best gunship pilots don't stand their ground if they get hit first, especially if it's an ion hit. If they get hit, they will immediately pop cooldowns and engine component their way out of LOS of their attacker. If they try and fight after getting hit first then they are either being stupid, or they don't really think you're a threat.

[IWantOffLineGame]

I'm no theorycrafter, just a guy who goes out and shoots a bunch of stuff. I play a lot of GS...equal parts failgun, lolgun, and fungun these days. Frequently I'm targeted by opposing gunships (and rightly so); often I recognize the better GS pilots before the match begins, and I know exactly what to expect.

 

Got me thinking - which gunship build is best at combating other gunships? For the purpose of this exercise, let's assume I'm facing a lolgun running the classic ion/slug combo. Neither he nor I get the drop on the other; we're going to begin hammering one another simultaneously. So what's my best choice:

 

- do I match lolgun with lolgun? Seems like the easy answer: ion + slug, rinse & repeat until dead? And hope the other guy isn't as quick as I am?

- failgun? fully charged plasma + repeated slugs is pretty devastating. plasma + protorp can be effective too, especially on a stationary GS.

- fungun? take a slug shot then barrel towards the enemy, tag him with interdiction and blast away?

 

There may not a simple answer here, just wondering what you folks think.

 

 

This is blasphemous! How dare you talk about how to kill a Gunship! You've been reported sir!

[Verain]

The best gunship killing gunship is the type 1 gunship with fortress shield, ion rail (specced reactor disruption) and slug (specced 10% damage) at max range with wingman up.

 

 

The worst gunship against other gunships is the type 2 gunship, but the real thing is simply that they not have a shot ready when you go into range.

[dancezwithnubz]

gunship duels are a game of chess.

get that first railgun shot off, don't matter what kind of railgun although Ion is the logical opener, and you should win.

 

if you don't, and the opponent gets the jump on you, you have three choices.

 

1: duke it out and trust to the evasion RNG gods. <the fools option>

2: move, run away, regather, come in from a different angle and try again. <the smart option>

3: CHARGE! Barrel Roll into point blank range and see who's better with primaries. You can usually spot an experienced scout pilot in a Gunship, they're generally more willing to try this one on. <the 50/50 option with added adrenaline>

[MaximilianPower]

The best gunship killing gunship is the type 1 gunship with fortress shield, ion rail (specced reactor disruption) and slug (specced 10% damage) at max range with wingman up.

 

 

The worst gunship against other gunships is the type 2 gunship, but the real thing is simply that they not have a shot ready when you go into range.

 

I'd more or less dismissed fortress shield; it always felt like painting a sign on my butt screaming SHOOT ME in giant letters. And the shielding wasn't quite tough enough to withstand that kind of invitation. However, this makes some sense in an isolated GS vs. GS battle...both participants remain largely stationary (unless making the bull rush maneuver). I may give Fortress another shot (so to speak); maybe I'll turn my T1 into a GS-battling build this way, and use the others for more general purposes.

 

This is blasphemous! How dare you talk about how to kill a Gunship! You've been reported sir!

 

lol, I didn't realize that was against the ToS. May the Forum Gods have mercy on me! But to be fair, I'm talking about gunships versus gunships. A gunship will always win.

[Magira]

The best gunship killing gunship is the type 1 gunship with fortress shield, ion rail (specced reactor disruption) and slug (specced 10% damage) at max range with wingman up.

Do I look that way. However, Fortress shield makes even more sense with rotational thrusters, which are the only maneuver that the Fortress shield does not break. The inability to break missile locks is not important against an opponent's GS.

[Verain]

I would say that while fortress is going to give you the best gunship v gunship defense, I don't think it's really worth having on your bar just for that. I generally run a "standard" type 1 gunship at all times, and fortress shield is definitely worse if you are gunship dueling and then some dumb flashfire comes along and pops a cooldown, which can happen even in a many-gunship type of standoff on a TDM.

 

 

The big thing is the ion railgun setting, and if you hate enemy gunships that is your go-to change. I think we generally agree that the snare is the more devastating button in general right now, but the reactor disruption pretty much ruins an enemy gunship roost guaranteed, just as much as it always did, even if it can't make a strike helpless like it used to.

 

 

So I would say, if you want a gunship to hunt gunships build, make sure your ion is reactor disruption. The fortress shield costs too much for the gunship v gunship gains IMO.

[SammyGStatus]

Back on our exclusive JM days, I used to duel with Alex and Tsuk a ton. The only way I could conceive survival was disto field + Running Interference. While it's true that it helps with the evasion, I believe Wingman gives you more accuracy than RI gives evasion (terrible with numbers though so I can't be certain). The only time I ever needed RI was facing either 1 terrifying GS (As playing against the two of them used to get my adrenaline pumping) or a bunch of noob GS pilots... That was a long time ago, before the Empire....

 

Now, GS duels seem very rare, at least the true 1v1 duels. I'm pretty sure that GSs are (or should be) one of the first people to get targetted, so it makes for having these personal engagements difficult. That being said, if you want to hunt a GS with a GS, the type 3s are phenom. Fire slug, anticipate where the pilot is flying to, either charge another slug or close range engage with clusters. Chances are, he's not packing the +10 turning on BR and even if he is, the T3 has the Turning Thrusters which I use in addition to the +10. Once you're in close range, you won't lose if you play it right.

 

The RI + Disto Field combo is still viable, but requires the opponent to not have Wingman to truly be effective. I may pick up a CM GS specifically for this option, because in GS battles, that evasion helps (again, excluding WM)

[Lendul]

A good Gunship dueling technique I have found for the T3 is to Slug>Retro>Slug

[MaximilianPower]

A good Gunship dueling technique I have found for the T3 is to Slug>Retro>Slug

 

 

Now that is an interesting idea. Never considered this. Obviously the range and timing needs to be right, but I like it. I'll give it a try.

 

Anyone consider mixing a torp in with a slug shot on the T2? Is that insanity? Again, range permitting.

Edited July 1, 2014 by MaximilianPower

[Kuciwalker]

Ion is powerful against any Gunship because of the energy drain, which will hinder their ability to shoot back.

 

That being said, Directional Shield (available on T2 and T3) can be great for Gunship duels. With a Large Reactor, your Gunship would have 2380 shields per arc.

 

This is ridiculous. There is one answer to OP (Quarrel) and even if you were running some other ship you would want distortion.

[Kuciwalker]

The best gunship killing gunship is the type 1 gunship with fortress shield, ion rail (specced reactor disruption) and slug (specced 10% damage) at max range with wingman up.

 

The moment you pop fortress I win because I just have to get out of your line of fire.

 

(I know fortress allows you to turn, but moving allows you to turn much faster.)

 

I can also just... fly out of range.

 

And since slug pierces fortress, I get in some free attrition.

 

edit: I suppose it's possible you're also running rotational, but again... I can just get out of range.

Edited July 1, 2014 by Kuciwalker

[Kuciwalker]

I will grant that my perspective on this is biased from my lived experience of seeing enemy gunships pop fortress and (correctly) thinking "yay! a free kill!".

[Verain]

I will grant that my perspective on this is biased from my lived experience of seeing enemy gunships pop fortress and (correctly) thinking "yay! a free kill!".

 

Generally true, but the fact that it's a noob-favored component doesn't mean it's bad at the job OP asked about.

 

With huge frontal shield arc you can tank a fully charged ion. With 30% extra regen, the 55% regen debuff is REALLY only turning you out for -25%- enough to keep shooting.

 

 

Again, I don't recommend it- you become food for a scout with light laser- but it is definitely better post buff at this particular job. I would say if your solution is to vacate the guarded area if the fortress gunship is on me (and that's what I would do), then he's won his gunship joust by forcing other builds to flee the area with distortion up.

[Kuciwalker]

I only have to leave for a few moments to reapproach; if you are going fully into rotational thrusters AND we're assuming a true joust with no outside interference, I think "you've made yourself temporarily defended but will die as soon as your buffs run out" doesn't count as a win.

 

Also, if you've already spent your rotation thrusters I become free to totally destroy you. Against your build I run bypass and I buy the shield piercing (not armor pen) of BLC, and +hull damage on BLC. I can run circles around you and just burst or slug through your shields to kill you.

[Magira]

Against your build I run bypass and I buy the shield piercing (not armor pen) of BLC, and +hull damage on BLC. I can run circles around you and just burst or slug through your shields to kill you.

 

It is completely irrelevant how good is the setting against any particular counter setting. Counting only does how it works in reality against different opponents. GSF is not a private duel.

[Kuciwalker]

It is completely irrelevant how good is the setting against any particular counter setting. Counting only does how it works in reality against different opponents. GSF is not a private duel.

 

Did you miss the context of our discussion?

 

We've already acknowledged that in a real combat setting, the standard gunship is optimal, with the exception of swapping slow -> energy reduction.

Edited July 2, 2014 by Kuciwalker

[havokhead]

Here's another good Saturday morning read for any aspiring GS pilots.

 

/bump