XSUPREMESKILLZX Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 Alright, I'll bookmark that as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 Well, it depends what you mean. In terms of force mastery, the Hero most definitely isn't #1, since we've got people like Nomi, Revan, and Meetra. In terms of pure, raw power though? It's certainly arguable. For me power is both Raw and Mastery. We have seen time and again, even in the movies themselves that your strength in the force is about 2 things. Connection to the Force and knowledge understanding of it. While HoT may have a greater connection to it then those you listed I feel all of them have shown a greater understanding and I feel in pure attained power in the Force itself they beat the HoT. I feel the Barsenthor is the exact opposite of this, but simultaneously I feel while the Barsenthor COULD have been stronger then the HoT givng up that much power in act I to save the Jedi ultimately curtailed the Barsenthor's potential and is what would ultimately allow the HoT to surpass the Barsenthor, even if the Barsenthor has greater mastery the HoT may have greater connection AND greater understanding. (again remember for me Knowledge and understanding are 2 different things, Knowledge is knowing how to do something, understanding is fully comprehending the meaning of those actions and their impact on the Living force. Knoweldge is a means to unlock knew abilities, understanding is a means to make those abilities truly powerful) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 (edited) This, I believe, is the best representation of her abilities. It misses a couple points, but some of them are just conjecture anyway. I've been digging into Surik more than ever though, so I might find more hints that solidify my theories... Edited June 30, 2014 by Selenial Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 It misses a couple points, but some of them are just conjecture anyway. I've been digging into Surik more than ever though, so I might find more hints that solidify my theories... "Current best" then. It will be interesting to see what you find, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfninjajedi Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 The main problem associated with the HoT thing is that he/she would even need high level lightsaber skill to beat Vitiate. Vitiate is not a skilled duelist by any stretch of the imagination, therefore the Hero could be Maul level or lower duelist and still take down Vitiate very quickly if he/she got close. The trick, though, is that the Hero would have to weather to storm of Vitiate's force attacks to get close, which would require an immensely high level of power. Hell, after the Hero wins the bout, the Emperor notes that he/she possesses "immense power." So yeah, imo the hero should be on a top 10 list like this, even in terms of power. Did you just imply that Maul is a weak saber duelist?.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 Did you just imply that Maul is a weak saber duelist?.... I don't even... Wha..... I..... Good lord. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 Did you just imply that Maul is a weak saber duelist?.... I hope not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XSUPREMESKILLZX Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 (edited) Yep, Maul's a weak duelist. All he's done is match Kenobi, a legendary swordsman, defeat both TPM Qui Gon and TPM Kenobi, and is canonically one of the most skilled sith in history. Nah, that wasn't what I was implying, although I can see how I could come across that way, so sorry about that. You can be Ahsoka/Jaden Korr/Rosh Penin tier as a duelist and still ream Vitiate. Point in hand, it would require more power than skill on the part of the HoT to defeat Vitiate, and that's why he should be on this list. Edited July 1, 2014 by XSUPREMESKILLZX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 Yep, Maul's a weak duelist. All he's done is match Kenobi, a legendary swordsman, defeat both TPM Qui Gon and TPM Kenobi, and is canonically one of the most skilled sith in history. Nah, that wasn't what I was implying, although I can see how I could come across that way, so sorry about that. You can be Ahsoka/Jaden Korr/Rosh Penin tier as a duelist and still ream Vitiate. Point in hand, it would require more power than skill on the part of the HoT to defeat Vitiate, and that's why he should be on this list. Actually, I think one quote names him the deadliest Sith Assassin in the history of the Sith Order. Oh, and you missed quite a few of his other kills, all of which are noted swordmasters. Maul's got leet skillz. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XSUPREMESKILLZX Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 Well, I just decided to name is best, which is probably stalemating Kenobi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XSUPREMESKILLZX Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 For me power is both Raw and Mastery. We have seen time and again, even in the movies themselves that your strength in the force is about 2 things. Connection to the Force and knowledge understanding of it. While HoT may have a greater connection to it then those you listed I feel all of them have shown a greater understanding and I feel in pure attained power in the Force itself they beat the HoT. I feel the Barsenthor is the exact opposite of this, but simultaneously I feel while the Barsenthor COULD have been stronger then the HoT givng up that much power in act I to save the Jedi ultimately curtailed the Barsenthor's potential and is what would ultimately allow the HoT to surpass the Barsenthor, even if the Barsenthor has greater mastery the HoT may have greater connection AND greater understanding. (again remember for me Knowledge and understanding are 2 different things, Knowledge is knowing how to do something, understanding is fully comprehending the meaning of those actions and their impact on the Living force. Knoweldge is a means to unlock knew abilities, understanding is a means to make those abilities truly powerful) Wait, the Barsen'thor permanently lost that power from the healing rituals? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 Wait, the Barsen'thor permanently lost that power from the healing rituals? As far as I understood from the game..... yes. Though I could be mistaken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XSUPREMESKILLZX Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 (edited) I thought it was something that just temporarily weakened him/her until Vivicar was destroyed. But in regards to the force comparison with the HoT and Barsen'thor: Mastery: Barsen'thor. She knows more things about healing, rituals, and has more experience with using the force. Understanding: Barsen'thor. Mainly the same as the above, the Hero mostly focused on using his immense force strength to bolster his lightsaber capabilities, while the Barsen'thor has more experience using the force in combat situations. Raw Power: This one I think I'll give to the HoT. Even though Vitiate was probably still weakened, we mustn't forget that the Hero is fighting through the dark temple, one of the strongest dark side nexuses ever. And being able to overcome the force prowess of the Emperor is, IMO, beyond what the Barsen'thor has shown. Edited July 1, 2014 by XSUPREMESKILLZX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 I thought it was something that just temporarily weakened him/her until Vivicar was destroyed. But in regards to the force comparison with the HoT and Barsen'thor: Mastery: Barsen'thor. She knows more things about healing, rituals, and has more experience with using the force. Understanding: Barsen'thor. Mainly the same as the above, the Hero mostly focused on using his immense force strength to bolster his lightsaber capabilities, while the Barsen'thor has more experience using the force in combat situations. Raw Power: This one I think I'll give to the HoT. Even though Vitiate was probably still weakened, we mustn't forget that the Hero is fighting through the dark temple, one of the strongest dark side nexuses ever. And being able to overcome the force prowess of the Emperor is, IMO, beyond what the Barsen'thor has shown. As I said Understanding is very different. If he is bolstering himself enough with the saber and is able to resist dark side nexi I believe this requires a level of understanding of the Force iteslf as he is able to pull on the light despite the Large amount of dark covering and smothering that light. That speaks to both connection and understanding of reaching past darkness. An ability we also see when he turns Kira back from the emperor's grasp, eventually breaks himself out along with the rest of the masters that went with him as well. For this reason I feel the HoT actually has both a greater connection to the light and a greater understanding of the light. While the Barsenthor has greater knowledge of the Force IE knows more techniques and is much more inventive with said techniques, but has not gotten to the level of elightenment of the HoT if you understand my meaning and to me thats what understanding is for a Jedi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XSUPREMESKILLZX Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 (edited) As I said Understanding is very different. If he is bolstering himself enough with the saber and is able to resist dark side nexi I believe this requires a level of understanding of the Force iteslf as he is able to pull on the light despite the Large amount of dark covering and smothering that light. That speaks to both connection and understanding of reaching past darkness. An ability we also see when he turns Kira back from the emperor's grasp, eventually breaks himself out along with the rest of the masters that went with him as well. For this reason I feel the HoT actually has both a greater connection to the light and a greater understanding of the light. While the Barsenthor has greater knowledge of the Force IE knows more techniques and is much more inventive with said techniques, but has not gotten to the level of elightenment of the HoT if you understand my meaning and to me thats what understanding is for a Jedi. True enough, and I can see what you're saying. However, something that must be taken into consideration is that the Barsen'thor has had more time to study the force (being a Jedi Consular), plus she helped overturn the Emperor's influence of the First Son himself, revealing all of the Emperor's Children. They should be at least relatively equal in this regard. Edited July 1, 2014 by XSUPREMESKILLZX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 True enough, and I can see what you're saying. However, something that must be taken into consideration is that the Barsen'thor has had more time to study the force (being a Jedi Consular), plus she helped overturn the Emperor's influence of the First Son himself, revealing all of the Emperor's Children. They should be at least relatively equal in this regard. Thats an excellent point, I think you are right, I think in terms of elightenment/ understanding they are likely on the same level while the Barsen'thor has more knowledge and the HoT has a stronger connection. I would ultimately give it to the knight in overall though of the 2. Still would put Nomi, Revan, and Meetra over both of them then followed by those 2 and then Satele personally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XSUPREMESKILLZX Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 (edited) Oh wait, I think you're right, the HoT might be above. He's the only being in the SWTOR era powerful enough to outright resist the mental influence of the Emperor. Revan came the closest, but he had to develop a technique specifically catered for this situation (force in balance/oneness thing). "Realizing you are too powerful to be dominated by his twisted will, the Emperor has resorted to more conventional means to destroy you." Edited July 1, 2014 by XSUPREMESKILLZX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 Oh wait, I think you're right, the HoT might be above. He's the only being in the SWTOR era powerful enough to outright resist the mental influence of the Emperor. Revan came the closest, but he had to develop a technique specifically catered for this situation (force in balance/oneness thing). "Realizing you are too powerful to be dominated by his twisted will, the Emperor has resorted to more conventional means to destroy you." I would likely argue HoT over a few other people, but there are to many unknowns for me to feel he deserves over Nomi, Revan, Meetra, maybe even a few others that just arent coming to my mind right now that werent around during this time period. But ya ultimately I think the HoT is a little stronger then the Barsen'thor, but I also believe the Barsen'thor's potential WAS curtailed by using up that much power on saving the Jedi, I was never under the impression that power returned to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XSUPREMESKILLZX Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 (edited) I would likely argue HoT over a few other people, but there are to many unknowns for me to feel he deserves over Nomi, Revan, Meetra, maybe even a few others that just arent coming to my mind right now that werent around during this time period. But ya ultimately I think the HoT is a little stronger then the Barsen'thor, but I also believe the Barsen'thor's potential WAS curtailed by using up that much power on saving the Jedi, I was never under the impression that power returned to them. Those are the only 3 I can think of. Those 3 are probably the best in the direction of light side energies, but in defense against the Dark Side I think the Hero's right up there with em. It's just that I feel the HoT is more purely powerful than all of them. Perhaps. She still has incredible TK feats after that occurence, and she still was capable of besting the First Son. Edited July 1, 2014 by XSUPREMESKILLZX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 Those are the only 3 I can think of. Those 3 are probably the best in the direction of light side energies, but in defense against the Dark Side I think the Hero's right up there with em. It's just that I feel the HoT is more purely powerful than all of them. Perhaps. She still has incredible TK feats after that occurence, and she still was capable of besting the First Son. Which do you think is rougher, First son away from any nexus, or Emperor's Voice weakened as it maybe on a Dark side Nexus. Also Would like to remind the HoT did fight a few of the emperor's children himself granted the first son was probably stronger but he was a council member after all so thats saying something. Kira after all is one of his children. Like I said Overall I would give to the HoT, but its by no means large over the Barsen'thor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XSUPREMESKILLZX Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 Which do you think is rougher, First son away from any nexus, or Emperor's Voice weakened as it maybe on a Dark side Nexus. Also Would like to remind the HoT did fight a few of the emperor's children himself granted the first son was probably stronger but he was a council member after all so thats saying something. Kira after all is one of his children. Like I said Overall I would give to the HoT, but its by no means large over the Barsen'thor. Well yeah, the Hero's is certainly more impressive. It's his most impressive feat of resisting dark side powers, (resisting the influence of the Emperor himself, in the Heart of the Dark Temple.) And yeah that's right, the Hero fought Kira while possessed by the Emperor himself. But yeah, the First Son was pretty boss, being able to conceal all of the Children from the Republic. I agree that he's above the Barsen'thor, and it certainly isn't super large. I just feel that he should take the #1 spot for Jedi because of the aforementioned reasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkelefantos Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 (edited) Oh wait, I think you're right, the HoT might be above. He's the only being in the SWTOR era powerful enough to outright resist the mental influence of the Emperor. Revan came the closest, but he had to develop a technique specifically catered for this situation (force in balance/oneness thing). "Realizing you are too powerful to be dominated by his twisted will, the Emperor has resorted to more conventional means to destroy you." Except that the HoT didn't outright resist the Emperor's influence. It was the presence of Orgus Din that completely dispelled the Emperor's influence, the HoT was the Emperor's tool for an undefined amount of time before being freed. Revan was much the same, he only held on for 300 years because of Meetra Surik's support. Whoever said the line you quoted also had no idea the HoT was supported by Orgus. Orgus appeared to the HoT when he was in the same room as Kira, and she couldn't perceive him at all. So the person you quoted is ill-informed. Random tidbit: Tol Braga was free of the Emperor's (direct) influence on Corellia, however, he had come to agree with Vitiate's views and thus fought on his side. I would say that rating who is stronger, HoT or Bar'senthor, is really difficult as they are very different characters. The HoT is a fighter, and the ultimate goal pursued in the Knight story is saving the galaxy. The Bar'senthor is a diplomat and scholar, the ultimate goal is saving the Republic and the Jedi Order. Sometimes, I believe the statements regarding their power ("We haven't seen such power in decades") just flat out contradict each other. I'm pretty sure that's a line both of them hear at some point during their story. By the way, in a discussion that also features Nomi Sunrider and Meetra Surik, could you refrain from calling the Bar'senthor "she"? It confused me quite a bit . EDIT: "This child is unfinished. I will make her strong." - The Emperor, talking about Kira. He considered her weak. None of the Children of the Emperor the HoT had to face compared to the First Son, though. Edited July 1, 2014 by Darkelefantos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XSUPREMESKILLZX Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 (edited) Except that the HoT didn't outright resist the Emperor's influence. It was the presence of Orgus Din that completely dispelled the Emperor's influence, the HoT was the Emperor's tool for an undefined amount of time before being freed. Revan was much the same, he only held on for 300 years because of Meetra Surik's support. Whoever said the line you quoted also had no idea the HoT was supported by Orgus. Orgus appeared to the HoT when he was in the same room as Kira, and she couldn't perceive him at all. So the person you quoted is ill-informed. Random tidbit: Tol Braga was free of the Emperor's (direct) influence on Corellia, however, he had come to agree with Vitiate's views and thus fought on his side. Orgus most certainly did not "completely dispell," the Emperor's influence on the hero, he only helped, and this is irrelevant anyways. We're talking about Act 3, when the Hero confronts the Emperor in the dark temple. The codex, (which is far more reliable than any speculations, and is certainly not some, "ill-informed person,") directly states that the Emperor tried to dominate the HoT, but he was too strong to be dominated. No jedi has ever outright resisted his influence in this manner. Edited July 1, 2014 by XSUPREMESKILLZX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 I think if we are going to compare Nomi, Revan, and Meetra (maybe HoT but whatevs) with any degree of accuracy and actually reach credible and agreed upon conclusions on this we are going to have to do this in-depth i.e. in terms of control, sense, alter etc. maybe if I get time I'd bash out a comparison but in general I feel this "well Meetra can do this and that's cool" isn't going to get as anywhere unless we stack it up against actual comparable feats from Revan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 I think if we are going to compare Nomi, Revan, and Meetra (maybe HoT but whatevs) with any degree of accuracy and actually reach credible and agreed upon conclusions on this we are going to have to do this in-depth i.e. in terms of control, sense, alter etc. maybe if I get time I'd bash out a comparison but in general I feel this "well Meetra can do this and that's cool" isn't going to get as anywhere unless we stack it up against actual comparable feats from Revan. I can do Revan and Surik, been researching them for a totally unknown and secret reason And I'd be totally unbiased, because I need to make them both look good for.... Totally unknown and secret reasons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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