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Tell us your GPU/CPU for best FPS performance.


SirMannii

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Hello there fellow SWTOR community!

 

I would like us to collect information about our performance in-game. I've had some serious issues with the fps-drop. (I'm currently very low, between 15-25 inside combat with 16-man operations bossfights and normal warzones).

 

I have tried everything out, and I can get 5-10 fps higher with certain settings and softwares helping my system to perform better, although I'm still very low. Below 30 fps in Normal Warzones and 16-man operations is not acceptable for any game. Please check your own FPS when you're in bossfights (16-man operations) or in combat in normal warzones (8v8). Outside combat has nothing to do with anything here, because we all know it's in those intense situations like 16-man operations and normal Warzones the Swtor Hero Engine does not help much.

 

To check your FPS inside SWTOR, simply click CTRL+SHIFT+F at the same time and there will be a very small red/green/yellow text at the bottom left corner of your screen. It's sometimes hard to notice so look closely (while you're in combat in Warzones or 16-man operation boss fights).

 

Also, when you let us know your fps during these situations please let us know what system you're running and more important what GPU and CPU you have.

 

I am running:

Intel Core i7-3820, quad core 3.6GHz, 10mb

Kingston DDR3 HyperX 1600MHz 16GB

Gainward GeForce GTX 770 2GB PhysX CUDA

Kingston HyperX 3K SSD 120GB 2.5"

Windows 8

+

Using softwares like Gamebooster and Swtor Unleashed to get better fps but they only help me a little, they can't do more than they are already doing. I know Swtor Unleashed helped me from dropping at 10-15. Now it's 15-20 at least.

 

This thread is meant for us to know what other players are using and what, perhaps, make our favorite game, Star Wars: The Old Republic run as good as possible. It will be a huge help when we have enough information to go on. Also, if you want to, put some screenshots to make your post more legit. Thank you! Let us all make the most optimized Swtor gaming PC as possible.

Edited by SirMannii
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AMD Phenom 9500, quad core 2.2GHz

Kingston DDR2 667MHz 8GB

PNY GeForce GTX 550 TI 2GB

Vista 64

 

3-5 fps on the lowest settings in 8m or 16m content and about 15 when I am out soloing. Doesn't matter if pve or pvp content. When something is invisible, it stays that way for a good 45 seconds before I can physically see what I am fighting. Good thing for target of target. Doesn't matter if I am tanking or healing I adjust to how the game loads for me. When we have to have mini-load screens in raids its like please let me load fast enough before dps die.

Edited by Zohkar
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I am running:

Intel Core i7-3820, quad core 3.6GHz, 10mb

Kingston DDR3 HyperX 1600MHz 16GB

Gainward GeForce GTX 770 2GB PhysX CUDA

Kingston HyperX 3K SSD 120GB 2.5"

Windows 8

 

Definitely something funky going on with your system. I run 50-70 FPS in 16 man ops and WZ with every graphics setting set to maximum and set to Full Screen-Windowed. My spec are very close to yours:

 

i7 4930K , 6 core @ 3.4 GHZ 12MB Cache

16GB 1866MHZ Quad channel RAM

OCZ Vertex 4 512 GB SSD

GTX 660Ti 2GB

Windows 7 Professional 64 bit

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Definitely something funky going on with your system. I run 50-70 FPS in 16 man ops and WZ with every graphics setting set to maximum and set to Full Screen-Windowed. My spec are very close to yours:

 

i7 4930K , 6 core @ 3.4 GHZ 12MB Cache

16GB 1866MHZ Quad channel RAM

OCZ Vertex 4 512 GB SSD

GTX 660Ti 2GB

Windows 7 Professional 64 bit

 

Yes, perhaps. But I know I'm not the only one. If we just compare yours with mine there are some difference. You have THE best CPU of them all (if you only look at the most common ones on the market while mine is not even close). Perhaps the Swtor Hero Engine just need that kind of sweetness, who knows?

 

We can only know if more people can confirm what you just said. Also, it would help a lot with more information from someone like yourself because you're the only one who might be able to get that much FPS drop of everyone typing in this thread. Could you tell us your exact settings in the NVidia Control Panel (3D-settings/Global settings) and also the exact settings in-game. If you would be up for it of course, it would mean a lot to the existence of this thread and also help a lot of people, not only myself.

 

What you're saying is that you're running Swtor in PvP normal warzones and 16-man operation bossfights with 50-70fps with maximum in-game settings. That's is just great! I would love to be in your place. Too bad I'm not. :(

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The CPU is not really relevant since almost no games (and certainly not SWTOR) use those other 2 cores. The extra RAM on the CPU and the quad channel DDR3 may make a small difference, but not by the margin we see. On top of that, my GPU is good, but nowhere near top of the line.

 

Ok, looking at settings in game I see I told a slight fib. Bloom is enabled and everything is set to high/very high EXCEPT shadow map cascades at medium and shadow map resolution at 1024. As a long time gamer, I automatically set shadows to lower quality because of the big performance hit they do. Not something I even think about anymore.

 

Here is the difference in 8 man operation I am running right now with Bloom on and everything else at high/very high: (staring at boss with fight not started). Also, NVIDIA contol panel has extras like FXAA turned off and everything else set to determined by application:

 

Shadow Map Cascades: Medium

Shadow Map Resolution: 1024

FPS: 90-105

 

Shadow Map Cascades: High

Shadow Map Resolution: 3968

FPS: 15

 

Big difference. One other thing is to be wary of is using the GeForce Experience settings. It likes to change the Full Screen-Windowed (what you want) to Full Screen (slower FPS).

 

It really does look like it is improper settings overtaxing you GPU. If it was internet related that would be high latency, not low FPS. I have had massive latency spikes, but the FPS stays well above 80. Unless there is some nefarious programs sapping your CPU, you have more than enough juice. With 16GB of RAM your system is not having to resort to virtual memory and that will murder your FPS.

 

For Windows 8, open Task Manager and then click on the "More details" arrow in the bottom left. The first tab "Processes" will show you what is running and how much system resources are being consumed. I much preferred the Windows 7 resource monitor (resmon.exe if you have a 7 machine) but you should still get all you need.

Edited by RandomXChance
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I agree that something may be wrong with your system to be getting that low fps with that equipment.

 

I suspect your internet connection, aside from some kind of hardware problem, which could affect your framerates.

 

My setup:

 

i3 - 4330 3.5GHz Haswell w/hyperthreading (dual core running as 4 logical cores)

16 GB ddr3 1600 RAM

240GB intel 335 series SSD

1tb 7200 rpm storage

Gigabyte mobo

AMD 7870 at 1250ghz 2GB

but also using newest gigabit ethernet wired connection to high speed router with cat 6 shielded cable.

 

I never drop below 30fps anywhere and get 100fps standing in fleet and something like 30 - 60fps in combat.

 

Your system is far more powerful than mine. You should:

 

1. look for malware

2. check your internet speed

3. check for too many programs running in the background as you play

4. windows 8? As a computer tech, i know that people are running into all kinds of issues with win8, it makes some games faster and screws up others.

 

edit: im playing with shadows on low and bloom on, full screen 1080

edit2: although this game doesnt use more than 2 cores(i think) the per core CPU speed is VERY important to the fps of this game.

Edited by Smuglebunny
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Recently upgraded mobo, cpu, ram:

 

Mobo: ASRock Z77 Extreme 4

CPU: Intel Core i7-3770K 3.5GHz

RAM: 16GB Ballistix DDR3-1600

My Vid card is now 2.5 years old: nVidia GTX 550 Ti 1.5GB (will upgrade this next year).

OS: Windows 8.1

 

40FPS+ while in combat 16man.

 

not top-of-the-line by any stretch but getting 8 times FPS as my old system (6 year old: Intel quad core 2.7GHz, 8GB DDR2, Asus P5Q mobo)

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Hello, well done with the posting so far. I am less certain now than ever before what causes the FPS issues. While some people who has these problems do not show up tho this thread or any discussions about it, some people, like myself, are very eager to solve it and also discuss it. Right now we have 3 players who have given their specs and FPS and none of you three seems to have any issues in combat scenarios (Warzones and 16-man operations).

 

We can also agree on that none of you three have a much better system than I do (the only one in the thread so far who got fps problems) and therefore I'm quite confused. I decided to reinstall my computer and with the reinstallation remove everything, make it completely new and fresh. Right now I've installed the Geforce drivers, without GeForce Experience. I will not touch any graphic settings in the NVidia control panel, and SWTOR is 50% done installing. I will update later on any changes I might have to the FPS in-game.

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I've noticed a significant FPS drop as of late. It has been continuous, but now i've been getting sub 20 fps in Flashpoints at times.

 

CPU: i5 2500k

GPU: 6870 2gb

Ram: 8gb

 

I don't remember my MOBO off hand.

 

For a reference, the last time I was at sub 30 fps, I was in a 30+ raid on SX. With max everything.

 

Edit: Things like turning shadows off does not affect my performance whatsoever. I've even tried turning down the settings, and that has limited impact, if any at all.

Edited by Sybriah
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CPU: I7 920 @ 4.0 GHz

Cooler: Venomous X Noctua Shroud

MOBO: Asus X58 Formula III

VGA : 4 x AMD 5870 XXX / recently changed to 2x AMD R9280X

RAM: 16 GB G-SKILL

SSD: 2x Samsung 840 PRO

HDD : 1x 500GB WD Caviar + 2 x 1 TB Samsung SpinPoint F3 + 1x 2 TB WD Caviar

Monitor : Dell U2410

Keyboard : Razer DeathStalker Expert

Mouse : Logitech G700

Audio : FiiO E17 + Denon D2000 / Senn HD800

 

 

 

I would like to point out that I run SWTOR from two 840pro SSD and the performance is pretty much shocking. My SWTOR experience.

 

1. Run launcher, wait a second for it to load fully

2. Login, press play

3. Look at the cog of doom wally

4. Click play, wait again for a new loading screen.

 

total time just to get in game : over 1 minute.

 

Now lets compare this to Wildstar. Launcher is instant, from the moment I click play, input my password, I load any area in the game in less than 10 seconds. So we have settled that it is not my computer as one of the direct competitors to this game works like a charm.

 

 

In terms of 16M performance, gameplay quality varies as well and you feel when it slows down. The 'bastion of failure' as I like to call it is Corrupter Zero in NiM. We are 16m, I start the fight with 100 fps, adds, aoes, special effects, I drop to 60 FPS and then the icing on the cake happens when : red circle, missile barrage+rampant adds : 1-10 FPS with half the raid unable to get out and getting stuck. This is not an isolated case it was reported in teamspeak and we had quite a few moments where we got the the final part, again adds, aoes, laser beams and we lagged like mad.

 

 

Performance in this game is appalling. You run on the fleet and you randomly feel the game slowing down. Play 3 days something else, come back to swtor and you will facepalm. I cringe when I see with every patch developer notes on how they improved the quality even more when the game runs as poorly as it did when it launched. Please add more shadow complexity and more graphical changes without fixing the FPS dips all over the place.

 

 

But leafy! You got a toaster and a turd !!! My 4 year laptop can run this and your computer sucks. #l2playleafy! lower the graphics! I am fine! I got good frames. inb4 defenders jump on me! Most of you do not even realize you are running at 15-20 frames per second and because you are used to this you think it is normal. We all have our standards and want to enjoy the game with the hardware we purchased.

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I have always had low fps it doesn't matter what i do, there's no difference really. And as Leafy said before me when CZ uses missle barrage in 16m its 10 fps.

 

AMD Fx 6300@ 3,5 GhZ

Gigabyte 7850 2GB

Corsair Vengeance 8GB 1600MhZ

Samsung 830 pro series SSD 128GB

win 8.1

Edited by Dzsedimester
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I am running:

Intel Core i7-3820, quad core 3.6GHz, 10mb

Kingston DDR3 HyperX 1600MHz 16GB

Gainward GeForce GTX 770 2GB PhysX CUDA

Kingston HyperX 3K SSD 120GB 2.5"

Windows 8

 

Using softwares like Gamebooster and Swtor Unleashed to get better fps but they only help me a little, they can't do more than they are already doing. I know Swtor Unleashed helped me from dropping at 10-15. Now it's 15-20 at least.

 

That's... really confusing. You have something odd going on there. My wife's laptop (i7-3xxx, GTX-660M) has far better performance than that.

 

Yes, perhaps. But I know I'm not the only one. If we just compare yours with mine there are some difference. You have THE best CPU of them all (if you only look at the most common ones on the market while mine is not even close). Perhaps the Swtor Hero Engine just need that kind of sweetness, who knows?

 

Here's a counterexample:

 

CPU: Intel i7-2600K (@ 4.5GHz)

Memory: 16GB DDR3-1600

GPU: nVidia GTX-770 (MSI Lightning)

Storage: Crucial M4 (128GB) / WD EADS 2TB (5400rpm) [ Game on WD, cache on M4)

OS: Windows 7

 

In Warzones, I get 40-60fps depending on action. I have shadows set to medium-high, and I have some extra AA settings (better transparency AA etc) enabled in nvidiainspector.

 

You really should be seeing better framerates. The 770 is a workhorse gaming CPU that is very capable. Even the 560 Ti is a good GPU for this game, and capable of better framerates than you're experiencing. I'd suspect there is some driver problem or perhaps something that is limiting your CPU (red framerate = CPU limited, green framerate = GPU limited). In any case, gamebooster and SWTOR unleashed are unlikely to help. In my experience, gamebooster only helps when you have overloaded your PC already, and SWTOR unleashed is focused on reducing loading times, not increasing frame rates; the tweaks it performs don't really do anything that will help your GPU draw faster..

 

This however, is very unlikely:

 

I suspect your internet connection, aside from some kind of hardware problem, which could affect your framerates.

 

Network latency doesn't cause framerate drops. It can cause network lag, but the identifying characteristics of network lag is jerky or stuttering graphical displays while showing a high/normal framerate. In SWTOR (and virtually every other multiplayer game) graphical frame draws are not linked to network response time. No one with any decent network programming experience would ever tie the two together. It's a very basic rule of netcode. Extremely high latency can be a drain on resources, but it has to get very, very high in order to start causing sustained framerate issues.

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CPU: I7 920 @ 4.0 GHz

Cooler: Venomous X Noctua Shroud

MOBO: Asus X58 Formula III

VGA : 4 x AMD 5870 XXX / recently changed to 2x AMD R9280X

RAM: 16 GB G-SKILL

SSD: 2x Samsung 840 PRO

HDD : 1x 500GB WD Caviar + 2 x 1 TB Samsung SpinPoint F3 + 1x 2 TB WD Caviar

Monitor : Dell U2410

Keyboard : Razer DeathStalker Expert

Mouse : Logitech G700

Audio : FiiO E17 + Denon D2000 / Senn HD800

 

 

 

I would like to point out that I run SWTOR from two 840pro SSD and the performance is pretty much shocking. My SWTOR experience.

 

1. Run launcher, wait a second for it to load fully

2. Login, press play

3. Look at the cog of doom wally

4. Click play, wait again for a new loading screen.

 

total time just to get in game : over 1 minute.

 

Now lets compare this to Wildstar. Launcher is instant, from the moment I click play, input my password, I load any area in the game in less than 10 seconds. So we have settled that it is not my computer as one of the direct competitors to this game works like a charm.

 

 

In terms of 16M performance, gameplay quality varies as well and you feel when it slows down. The 'bastion of failure' as I like to call it is Corrupter Zero in NiM. We are 16m, I start the fight with 100 fps, adds, aoes, special effects, I drop to 60 FPS and then the icing on the cake happens when : red circle, missile barrage+rampant adds : 1-10 FPS with half the raid unable to get out and getting stuck. This is not an isolated case it was reported in teamspeak and we had quite a few moments where we got the the final part, again adds, aoes, laser beams and we lagged like mad.

 

 

Performance in this game is appalling. You run on the fleet and you randomly feel the game slowing down. Play 3 days something else, come back to swtor and you will facepalm. I cringe when I see with every patch developer notes on how they improved the quality even more when the game runs as poorly as it did when it launched. Please add more shadow complexity and more graphical changes without fixing the FPS dips all over the place.

 

 

But leafy! You got a toaster and a turd !!! My 4 year laptop can run this and your computer sucks. #l2playleafy! lower the graphics! I am fine! I got good frames. inb4 defenders jump on me! Most of you do not even realize you are running at 15-20 frames per second and because you are used to this you think it is normal. We all have our standards and want to enjoy the game with the hardware we purchased.

 

 

This Leafyy lad (spoiler text) I would say is the one who understands my problem. He's talking about people not realizing they are actually running at 15-25 fps (when having the lowest fps) because they are so used to SWTOR their standards are way lower than the more hardcore players (like myself). Bioware has never came up with a solution to this. I've been working my *** off in the customer support forums and Owen Brooks have tried to help me and others but with no solution that had any big impact on the fps not going below 30.

 

If anyone know themselves running SWTOR with 30+fps in combat scenarios like normals 8v8 Warzones and 16-man operation bossfights (at all time) please make your posts legit by actually proving you're not just typing something you think you have. Do this by using printscreen or videorecord it. I can see a lot of people in this thread talling me it's something wrong with my system, but why would it run games like Battlefield 4, Wildstar etc with much higher graphic settings and even when there is large fps drops it never goes below 30 fps. I actually run Swtor with everything set at Very Low or Off, and do not have higher FPS at all than playing it with Shadows on and everything else set to Ultra.

Edited by SirMannii
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The one with the big boxes should specify their power consumption.

 

I play at 720p with an AMD A6-3500 and a Radeon 6570. PVP and GSF without Problems at ca. 35-40 fps.

Power consumption total 70W included screen.

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The one with the big boxes should specify their power consumption.

 

I play at 720p with an AMD A6-3500 and a Radeon 6570. PVP and GSF without Problems at ca. 35-40 fps.

Power consumption total 70W included screen.

 

I might start believe that SWTOR runs better with AMD/ATI combination. With everything I've heard there are a lot of NVidia Geforce users stating they have these fps drops from 99-105 down to 20-25 when engaging combat in 8v8 Warzones, but also in 16-man operations.

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I'm using an i7 4770k, 16gb Crucial Ballistix 1600mhz CL9 Ram, Gigabyte GTX 780 and a 250gb Samsung EVO SSD

 

I get 110-120fps on Cz-198, 60-80 in combat and the busier parts of the fleet.

 

The new shadow slider is a real performance killer though even with a beefy gpu, it's fine in low intensity areas like CZ-198 but places with lots of tree's or foliage or in combat during 16 man runs it decimates my performance.

 

As to the OP's problem, and my previous machine was an i7 laptop with a GTX 580m and I got better performance numbers than that so I suggest something is bottlenecking his system quite badly.

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I'm using an i7 4770k, 16gb Crucial Ballistix 1600mhz CL9 Ram, Gigabyte GTX 780 and a 250gb Samsung EVO SSD

 

I get 110-120fps on Cz-198, 60-80 in combat and the busier parts of the fleet.

 

The new shadow slider is a real performance killer though even with a beefy gpu, it's fine in low intensity areas like CZ-198 but places with lots of tree's or foliage or in combat during 16 man runs it decimates my performance.

 

As to the OP's problem, and my previous machine was an i7 laptop with a GTX 580m and I got better performance numbers than that so I suggest something is bottlenecking his system quite badly.

I am the OP and I am having 99-106 fps on Cz-198 right now. In combat I am at 72-89 at CZ-198, but in 8v8 Warzones I'm dropping at around 20 fps. That's the only combat scenario I am dropping this much (also 16-man operation bossfights). And there's nothing wrong with my system, not that I'm aware of, because other games runs much better, way over 30 fps on highest settings. In SWTOR I run lowest settings on everything. I've evn played with 800x600 resolution and still drops down to around 20 fps in 8v8 Warzones. It's only SWTOR that drops down to these numbers.

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[spoiler

But leafy! You got a toaster and a turd !!! My 4 year laptop can run this and your computer sucks. #l2playleafy! lower the graphics! I am fine! I got good frames. inb4 defenders jump on me! Most of you do not even realize you are running at 15-20 frames per second and because you are used to this you think it is normal. We all have our standards and want to enjoy the game with the hardware we purchased.

 

Right there is where I just blew off this whole post. When a poster starts with that it makes it looks like they have a negative agenda on the game. "in4 defefenders" just makes you look defensive and unable to prove your point.

My FPS meter is always on and I very frequently look at it. How many times have you looked at my meter to see this 15-20 FPS?

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If anyone know themselves running SWTOR with 30+fps in combat scenarios like normals 8v8 Warzones and 16-man operation bossfights (at all time) please make your posts legit by actually proving you're not just typing something you think you have. Do this by using printscreen or videorecord it. I can see a lot of people in this thread talling me it's something wrong with my system, but why would it run games like Battlefield 4, Wildstar etc with much higher graphic settings and even when there is large fps drops it never goes below 30 fps. I actually run Swtor with everything set at Very Low or Off, and do not have higher FPS at all than playing it with Shadows on and everything else set to Ultra.

 

I have no troubles running at 30+ FPS in any area of the game... that being said, I notice that most people do not post their resolution. It matters, the same hardware is going to perform very differently running at 1080p vs. 1600p.

 

My rig (I don't overclock):

 

Intel 4770k running at stock speed

32GB DDR3-2400 memory (rated for this, so running at proper speed)

Samsung 840 EVO SSD for boot drive and for running the game

AMD Radeon HD 295x2

3x Dell 30" monitors, total resolution running Eyefinity - 8124x1600 (bezel corrected, hence the larger size)

 

game runs like a champ in all areas. I used to have it loaded into a RAM drive and that did improve loading by a bit, but used more RAM than i wanted it to (I have a number of background tasks running that use about 10GB of RAM on their own).

 

Note: I started playing this game on an AMD Radeon HD 7970 (stock) and it was pretty piss poor at that resolution. Upgraded about 6 months ago to a pair of nVidia 780 TIs when they first came out and that helped a ton, however it also caused a bunch of stutter... Most of the time the game was fine, until it wasn't, then it was, then it wasn't. I replaced those two cards with the AMD 295x2 and everything cleaned right up.

 

8x8 WZ, 16 person raids, all just fine... all details set to max, except for grass and trees, which I have turned down, and shadow maps, turned way down.

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I have no troubles running at 30+ FPS in any area of the game... that being said, I notice that most people do not post their resolution. It matters, the same hardware is going to perform very differently running at 1080p vs. 1600p.

 

My rig (I don't overclock):

 

Intel 4770k running at stock speed

32GB DDR3-2400 memory (rated for this, so running at proper speed)

Samsung 840 EVO SSD for boot drive and for running the game

AMD Radeon HD 295x2

3x Dell 30" monitors, total resolution running Eyefinity - 8124x1600 (bezel corrected, hence the larger size)

 

game runs like a champ in all areas. I used to have it loaded into a RAM drive and that did improve loading by a bit, but used more RAM than i wanted it to (I have a number of background tasks running that use about 10GB of RAM on their own).

 

Note: I started playing this game on an AMD Radeon HD 7970 (stock) and it was pretty piss poor at that resolution. Upgraded about 6 months ago to a pair of nVidia 780 TIs when they first came out and that helped a ton, however it also caused a bunch of stutter... Most of the time the game was fine, until it wasn't, then it was, then it wasn't. I replaced those two cards with the AMD 295x2 and everything cleaned right up.

 

8x8 WZ, 16 person raids, all just fine... all details set to max, except for grass and trees, which I have turned down, and shadow maps, turned way down.

Resolution has no impact on the fps what so ever. I know this sound very strange, but that's the truth and only truth. I've checked around with my guildmates and they actually tried to use 800x600 as I did, with less <5 or nothing while standing on fleet or on a daily area, wherever they were at the time they checked.

 

I also want to update the thread with some information about the difference I've made in my NVidia Control Panel. Instead of having everything or almost everything set to performance I tried to set everything to quality instead (or with the MAXIMUM settings I thought my system SHOULD be capable to handle). I've now eveything on maximum quality, and also in-game.

 

The performance loss I can see is when I have shadows on in certain areas, but everything else at Very High/Ultra. And here's the funny part - I have the exact same fps as I had with everything set to Performance (and everything at very low or Off in Graphic settings). Now I need to also check this at prime time on fleet and inside 8v8 warzones. Because the server was light and I think that has some sort of impact (even though it sound weird) to the FPS in Swtor for all of us.

Edited by SirMannii
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Resolution has no impact on the fps what so ever.

 

Maybe a better way to put it is that if you're GPU limited resolution matters, but if something else is holding you back then it doesn't.

 

If you're running on Intel Intergrated HD graphics from 3 generations ago and trying to run 2560x1600, then yes resolution is going to matter.

 

If you're running a seperate video card from the past two/three years, probably not.

 

That being said, performance nearly tripled when I replaced the AMD 7970 with the pair of 780 TI cards. I used to run the game on a single monitor on the 7970 because performance was very choppy trying to run on all three.

 

The 780 TI cards had their own issues, the 295x2 is better for this type of setup. nVidia's Surround and AMD's Eyefinity each have their own quirks, some games work better on one, some on others.

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