just checking we're all on the same page re: slows stacking

[Kuciwalker]

Everyone agrees that this is wrong and needs to / will be changed, right?

[tunewalker]

Everyone agrees that this is wrong and needs to / will be changed, right?

 

nope I like it

[Pilgrim_Grey]

nope I like it

 

Really? One slow in the current setup gets you moving at a crawl, whether it's a missile, ion shot, or mine. It's not quite a sab probe, but most solo pilots will be able to follow up on a hit with ease. If there's another in range, forget about it. It's not all that different from the overpowered ion rail's power drain and regen nullification: you're dead in the water.

 

And that's before you even get to more than one of these slows on you. Consistent player frustration in GSF stems from things that are too far out of their control. Massive crit rates from scouts using BLC + offense abilities + their ability to get up close are a concern. Ion railgun and its ability to neuter people from extreme long range was a concern. A bomber being able to have massive shield piercing with two of its mines was a concern.

 

I could go on, but slows are in the same territory with how they are currently set up. Note that I'm not against them, just how they're set up currently, especially with the ability to stack.

[Kuciwalker]

To be clear, I don't agree with the above perspective (too much CC in game). I think it is just so clearly an absurd design to have the second slow that hits you be a complete CC (in many ways a stronger CC than ion love tap).

 

I haven't actually experienced this yet (except maybe once where I'm not sure because I died half a second after) but I have done it to people and it's not pretty.

Edited June 18, 2014 by Kuciwalker

[Verain]

It's been like this since launch. The only thing that is different is that the ion slow became worth using at the same patch that reactor disruption was heavily nerfed, resulting in most gunships swapping. The same patch has interdiction missile too, but those aren't THAT common.

 

I don't really see a problem with it at all, but I do think that slows should stack multiplicatively instead of additively. They would still be worth using and very powerful. Alternatively, if there was some way to immune or purge slows, that could be interesting.

 

 

I generally like it when a game has some things in it that are very powerful, and the slows right now aren't as dominant a strategy as many other stuff we've seen, such as ion railtap, that felt abusive to me. Every slow is earned and paid for on the field of battle, so they feel pretty fair.

[Altheran]

I don't really see a problem with it at all, but I do think that slows should stack multiplicatively instead of additively. They would still be worth using and very powerful. Alternatively, if there was some way to immune or purge slows, that could be interesting.

 

You gave me an idea : what if Hydrospanner, instead of doing a slight heal, would cleanse negative effects (Slicer's loop, Slows, EMP disables...) ? It's still in the mindset of "fixing the ship", but in a way completely different than Repair Probe/Drone.

 

Of course it's not as seducing than giving a "break from jail" button to everyone, but still...

Edited June 18, 2014 by Altheran

[Fractalsponge]

It's been like this since launch. The only thing that is different is that the ion slow became worth using at the same patch that reactor disruption was heavily nerfed, resulting in most gunships swapping. The same patch has interdiction missile too, but those aren't THAT common.

 

I don't really see a problem with it at all, but I do think that slows should stack multiplicatively instead of additively. They would still be worth using and very powerful. Alternatively, if there was some way to immune or purge slows, that could be interesting.

 

 

I generally like it when a game has some things in it that are very powerful, and the slows right now aren't as dominant a strategy as many other stuff we've seen, such as ion railtap, that felt abusive to me. Every slow is earned and paid for on the field of battle, so they feel pretty fair.

 

I generally agree with this. Multiplicative seems the best way to mitigate it without nerfing the value of multiple slows. Is there any other mechanic in gsf that uses multiplicative rather than additive bonuses?

 

If there were ever an active purge mechanism for slows, I think it should exclude or be less effective on scouts. They are the hardest to hit with slows like the various missiles or ion rail, and so should pay a bigger price for getting hit in the first place.

[Kuciwalker]

It's been like this since launch. The only thing that is different is that the ion slow became worth using at the same patch that reactor disruption was heavily nerfed, resulting in most gunships swapping. The same patch has interdiction missile too, but those aren't THAT common.

 

Yes, there used to be one valuable slow in the game - interdiction mine - and that was suddenly increased to three. (Maybe 1.5 with conc missile, though my impression was most people took armor pen). And precisely because of this stacking, the value of slows scales VERY super-linearly with the number of viable slows being thrown around. This brings into play things like interdiction drone (which is now available on a second ship). So now we are up to ~5 different reasonably common sources of slowing in the game, and getting hit by just two of them is pretty much a hard stun.

[TrinityLyre]

The biggest changes required involve protecting players from being unable to play the game. In my eyes, there's two things that need to be addressed:

 

1) Being killed in <1 sec. This includes BO/CF, TT/CF, TT/pods/quads/wingman, crit Slug Railgun shots that one-shot scouts, etc. Should burst damage exist? Absolutely! Should it exist to the point where you can kill someone with RFL/pods almost instantly? Nope.

2) Additively stacking slows to the point that you can't move or do anything. Because, you know, being completely unable to play is cool and all.

 

I don't think any other changes are warranted until these two items are addressed.

Edited June 18, 2014 by TrinityLyre

[Pilgrim_Grey]

I generally agree with this. Multiplicative seems the best way to mitigate it without nerfing the value of multiple slows. Is there any other mechanic in gsf that uses multiplicative rather than additive bonuses?

 

If there were ever an active purge mechanism for slows, I think it should exclude or be less effective on scouts. They are the hardest to hit with slows like the various missiles or ion rail, and so should pay a bigger price for getting hit in the first place.

 

I'm good with multiplicative so multiple slows can have benefit, but how does that cap out? My big concern is how slow even one of these things makes you right now. 55% is a huge slowdown for any ship, and that's just one. I want slows to have an impact, but I don't want just one hitting to ruin your day.

 

I'm not quite on board with saying these slows are difficult to apply, either. Mines, okay, you have to get in close to them. But interdiction missile has a laughably low lock on time when compared to... EMP, for example, which should be a comparison point, since it debuffs as well (and Sab Probe is 3 seconds, pretty fair for how much it dings you). And ion railgun is, let's face it, derp to hit with. Yes, you have to have some aim (and your aim is ridiculously spot on, Xi'ao), but it has a huge range and is not difficult to apply.

 

I'm not sure where that leaves me for what numbers seem fair, but just one application seems too easy and too strong at the moment. Maybe reducing one would help, besides the stacking.

[Taleek]

I'm good with multiplicative so multiple slows can have benefit, but how does that cap out? My big concern is how slow even one of these things makes you right now. 55% is a huge slowdown for any ship, and that's just one. I want slows to have an impact, but I don't want just one hitting to ruin your day.

 

I'm not quite on board with saying these slows are difficult to apply, either. Mines, okay, you have to get in close to them. But interdiction missile has a laughably low lock on time when compared to... EMP, for example, which should be a comparison point, since it debuffs as well (and Sab Probe is 3 seconds, pretty fair for how much it dings you). And ion railgun is, let's face it, derp to hit with. Yes, you have to have some aim (and your aim is ridiculously spot on, Xi'ao), but it has a huge range and is not difficult to apply.

 

I'm not sure where that leaves me for what numbers seem fair, but just one application seems too easy and too strong at the moment. Maybe reducing one would help, besides the stacking.

 

Agreed, being helpless is the worst feeling in GSF, because survival is based around your reacting to stuff, and reacting in the right way. I know it wouldn't help PuGs, but what if Tensor had the effect added to it that it removed any and all snares on any friendly ships within range? That would give it an added use beyond accelerating to a node.

[LilSaihah]

IMHO slows/turnspeed modifiers should cap at a certain percentage- Maybe 50% or so. I'm not sure on the numbers of all abilities but I think that's a decent spitball.

[Verain]

Cap at 50? The good slows already exceed that.

 

 

Look, your options are:

 

1)- Additive stack. This means a second slow is basically a ROOT. The second slow is also easier to land than the first. Disadvantages: CC can be extremely punishing. Advantages: CC requires you to screw up to get hit with it, rewarding to actually give up damage in exchange for CC (death is the best CC, and the other top thread is talking about how TTK is like 3 seconds or whatever).

 

2)- Multiplicate stack OR stack to a maximum. This prevents slows from ever hitting 0, so no roots, but is otherwise similar. Two 50% slows won't root you, but you'll be going at 25% speed, which is pretty terrible. I think we'd avoid a lot of these issues with a "minimum speed" of 25% up to 40%, under which you can't be slowed. Bonus points if strike fighters get a higher minimum speed than scouts.

 

3)- "Take highest" This is how WoW works, and most solidly coded MMO games these days. But it isn't a real comparison: you can't possibly avoid all the snares in WoW or SWTOR's warzones, because all that has to happen is that you be in range of an enemy and he cast one or more instant cast moves that always hit and apply the snare. In this model, you could have a 55% snare with 3 seconds remaining, a 40% snare with 5 seconds remaining, and a 30% snare with 7 seconds remaining, and you would be snared 55% for 3 seconds, 40% for 2 seconds, and then 30% for two more seconds.

 

 

The issue here is simple: The snares here all require a choice. Interdiction Drive means you have to be close to your target and not have a different engine button. Ion snare means you have to have the ion talent selected and NOT be using slug or plasma. Interdiction missile means you aren't throwing clusters, which lock on faster and hit harder. Everything is like that, everything is a tradeoff.

 

This isn't really the case in games that use the weaker model above (3). In WoW, the snares help keep combat reasonable, such that players aren't running in and out of melee trivially (SWTOR partially accomplishes this with the sprint ability, which is essentially a snare that always applies in combat to everyone). As such, snares are applied trivially and for almost free, and if two snares stacked into a root in there or the SWTOR ground game it would be absurd.

 

 

 

 

 

So here I disagree with Stasie and some of you guys. I think it's totally fine that you can get rooted, be helpless, and watch as you die. I don't think it's a problem at all. Losing control of your character is far better than dying instantly for you and your team- a stationary bomber might be an amusing target, but the time and weapon energy you spend killing him is time and weapon energy you aren't spending on another target. It's better you be snared than dead.

 

The trick is that, like death and damage, the snaring and rooting needs to be something you can interact with. Railgun? Don't get hit with a railgun. Missile? Don't get hit with a missile. Mine? Don't get hit with a mine.

 

 

The ones that feel a BIT unfair are Interdiction Drive and Interdiction Drone. These are area effects that turn on very fast, and it's not entirely obvious when you are in danger of them. But even those will become more watched for (and thus less surprising).

 

 

 

Should we have something break a snare? Like, tensor field, command aura, or repair probes? Could hydrospanner remove these effects?

 

Those are interesting, but it does create a situation where you apply a status effect and it immediately disappears. This is actually a super frustrating feature of this game's ground game, WoW, old Warhammer... lots. With dispels, immunities, heartbeat resists, and variable durations, the game state becomes much less related to your actions, and more related to the actions of enemy healers, etc. That can be ok, but in a game like this one, where most things need to be aimed... I dunno. I think it could work ok with tensor, or repair probes.

 

Now, I do think that durations or magnitudes could be shrunk by, say, engineering crew passives. That would be pretty clever.

[Verain]

1) Being killed in <1 sec. This includes BO/CF, TT/CF, TT/pods/quads/wingman, crit Slug Railgun shots that one-shot scouts, etc. Should burst damage exist? Absolutely! Should it exist to the point where you can kill someone with RFL/pods almost instantly? Nope.

 

The scout combos I have problems with. The crit railgun things I'm TOTALLY fine with. Why?

 

Because the scout picked it!

 

 

Here's a type 2 scout with distortion, large reactor, power to engines, and the health hull:

2440

 

That survives the crit. And that scout still has 24% evasion baseline. You could easily only be hitting him 85% of the time.

 

But, because most scouts are willing to opt in to being one shot, most will instead fly with lightweight armor. This greatly boosts base evasion (33%), meaning that your one-shot kill happens less than 10% of the time- the other 90% of the time is made of hits and misses.

 

Other options include not picking distortion field, as the other shields are much larger, and not being F1 or F3 mode, which many pilots live in- it is certainly intended that both of these offer weaker defenses than F2 or F4. F1 trades everything for offensive power, F3 gives you extra speed and maneuverability, which, if you were struck with a railgun, you failed to capitalize into in that case- your gamble failed.

 

Actively selecting a set of components that risks a one shot but gives you better average performance seems like an interesting tradeoff most players are willing to make. Actively also selecting one of the two "poor defense" modes also seems like an interesting trade off players will gladly make because of the power it has in getting kills, or dodging shots. But if you put EVERYTHING into dodging shots or presenting an overwhelming offense, I think it's fine that you be defensively hindered should the enemy actually manage to hit you.

 

 

So when a scout gets one shot, he has made SEVERAL decisions prior to that point that made it possible. He selected a shield component and an armor component making it possible, then he made a choice to sacrifice his defense in field (if you crit a scout with F2 active, he won't die, even with distortion), and then, of course, he flew into the railgun range. Everything but the last is handwaved as "of course it is superior", but if the ramifications of a "superior" option mean that you risk being one shot, that's not a design problem.

 

 

 

 

 

All that being said- I think it would be cooler if the talent was +32% crit or +40% crit, but the critical multiplier became x1.25. Or +26% crit but with a x1.30. I'd love seeing frequent smaller crits I think.

[tunewalker]

I agree with that smaller bit, more crits less crit magnitude, honestly that could almost be done acrossed the board and is one of the main ways to fix Target Telem with the whole "removing its magnitude upgrade in its final tier"

[Altheran]

I agree with that smaller bit, more crits less crit magnitude, honestly that could almost be done acrossed the board and is one of the main ways to fix Target Telem with the whole "removing its magnitude upgrade in its final tier"

 

And maybe limit the crit chances bonus to primaries, what do you think ? Like if one would need some crit clusters or pods after accurate and critting shots...

 

Erm, we are going off topic aren't we ?

Edited June 20, 2014 by Altheran

[Urien]

Let's add a Resolve system to GSF! lol

[Pilgrim_Grey]

My TLDR for the whole thread is just let's find a point where it's not pointless to add another slow to the mix, but getting hit with one (or more) is not a guaranteed kill. I'd say Sab Probe even gives more room for a target to survive than two slows at the moment not a lot, because even being able to boost (somewhat decently) makes a difference. There's practically no difference between boosting and not with two slows on you.