Idea to improve GF queue times

[BuriDogshin]

Allow people to queue more than one of their alts (perhaps only from the same faction the player was currently logged in to) at one time.

 

That way, the player could, for example, queue both a tank toon and a healer toon, and GF would select whichever was needed to complete a group, notify the player of the alt selected, and if the player accepted the game would switch the player to the selected toon and transport the player to the op/FP.

 

Why I think this would improve GF enormously: how often have you seen someone switch to a tank or healer alt in order to complete a pug group? Pretty often, because they need to.

 

Reality check: this would likely involve a major change in the GF code and the implementation of new code to do the switch to the selected alt. So the required investment to bring this to SWTOR is probably high. As as a result, getting to "the wall of crazy" may be as far as this idea ever goes.

[venomlash]

Definitely a good idea to throw on the Wall of Crazy. Honestly, I don't see huge demand for it; if I log in on a healer and don't get an instaqueue, I just alt over to a tank.

[Heal-To-Full]

Good in theory.

Unfortunately the game doesn't even have your alts share a common cash pool, a total no-brainer. The engine just doesn't seem *nearly* alt-aware enough for it.

[BuriDogshin]

Good in theory.

Unfortunately the game doesn't even have your alts share a common cash pool, a total no-brainer. The engine just doesn't seem *nearly* alt-aware enough for it.

Yeah, the alt-awarenes is minimal: just the mailbox recipient-check function and the Legacy Family Tree.

Still, there is some hope in the upcoming Legacy Vault and (rumored or wished for?) Legacy Bank.

 

I think the bigger challenge might be automatically logging you off, logging in the alt, and going to the Op/FP. Whether that can be done with "reasonable" effort depends on details of the client and server code that I don't know.

 

But maybe I am thinking too ambitiously. Perhaps a system where you can queue a logged-off alt and just get a notice when the queue pops for it -- at which time you could decline it, change toons and accept it, or leave it to time out -- might be easier to implement and give most of the benefits. But since I imagine GF currently de-queues logged out toons, there might still be difficult coding to do, as well as a new UI (perhaps leveraging the Legacy Family Tree panel?) to build.

[psandak]

Definitely a good idea to throw on the Wall of Crazy. Honestly, I don't see huge demand for it; if I log in on a healer and don't get an instaqueue, I just alt over to a tank.

 

This.

[DrewFromPhilly]

if 16m ops in group finder are too much of a load on a server, everyone queing up multiple people and literally doubling/tripling the size of the queue is probably going to be as well.

[LloydTwoscoops]

Atleast a way to improve times for lowbie flashpoints could most likely be achieved. Currently we have tactical flashpoints that allow all levels 15-54 to queue together, so why not make regular flashpoints follow this system, the only difference being you have to be the current minimum level for that flashpoint to queue for it because at the moment you can queue for half a day and maybe get 2 queue pops, and of course you can almost guarentee someone will be afk in it or decline it.

[Petnil]

Maybe some way of knowing how many tanks/heals/dps are in queue. If you could see that when you signed up it would be enough. Unsure how much it would actually improve queue times for dps though, but every little thing Counts.

[BuriDogshin]

Maybe some way of knowing how many tanks/heals/dps are in queue. If you could see that when you signed up it would be enough. Unsure how much it would actually improve queue times for dps though, but every little thing Counts.

That's not a bad idea.

[ninjonxb]

Good in theory.

Unfortunately the game doesn't even have your alts share a common cash pool, a total no-brainer. The engine just doesn't seem *nearly* alt-aware enough for it.

 

Um... Please stop saying engine to sound smart... That isn't the engine >.>

 

To OP:

It is an interesting idea but I think it would complicate the group finder queue also. They would need to include some logic so if you queue with a healer and a tank... if both roles are needed it would need to not pop the que for everyone else.

 

it isn't exactly hard logic but something to figure out none the less.

I also don't know if this would necessarily fix anything.

The vast majority of the time it is the tanks that are needed the most. Closely followed by healers. And then there are plenty of DPS.

[Heal-To-Full]

Um... Please stop saying engine to sound smart... That isn't the engine >.>

SWTOR is built on HeroEngine, which is a complete "MMO in a box" solution. It's not like UE or Frostbite which only handle graphics and the rest you code yourself. HeroEngine also handles gameplay features, like abilities, player interaction system, server side, basically everything. Its development kit looks and works more like Bethesda's GECK or Creation Kit than like a typical SDK.

 

So yeah, unless you have evidence to the contrary, that very likely is the engine.

Edited June 17, 2014 by Heal-To-Full

[Kantaso]

SWTOR is built on HeroEngine, which is a complete "MMO in a box" solution. It's not like UE or Frostbite which only do the back end; it's also handles gameplay features, like abilities, player interaction system, basically everything. So yeah, unless you have evidence to the contrary, that very likely is the engine.

 

Can I put that engine in my redneck motorcycle?

 

http://i1.ytimg.com/vi/CZqPj2aPLoA/maxresdefault.jpg

[Darth_Wicked]

Can I put that engine in my redneck motorcycle?

 

http://i1.ytimg.com/vi/CZqPj2aPLoA/maxresdefault.jpg

 

That is one fat... Errrrr... Motorcycle-like... Tractor...?!

[TUXs]

if 16m ops in group finder are too much of a load on a server, everyone queing up multiple people and literally doubling/tripling the size of the queue is probably going to be as well.

 

Agreed. It can't handle 16 people of one specific role...I doubt the engine could ever handle anything this complex.

 

Good idea though...just...doubt it's possible given the recent 16 man debacle.

[ninjonxb]

SWTOR is built on HeroEngine, which is a complete "MMO in a box" solution. It's not like UE or Frostbite which only handle graphics and the rest you code yourself. HeroEngine also handles gameplay features, like abilities, player interaction system, server side, basically everything. Its development kit looks and works more like Bethesda's GECK or Creation Kit than like a typical SDK.

 

So yeah, unless you have evidence to the contrary, that very likely is the engine.

 

If we are going to walk down this route... Explain to me the legacy window that shows all of your legacy toons...

 

The fact that GSF shows the companions you unlocked on other toons.

 

I cannot think for the life of me how what is essentially a query to a database has anything related the engine.

It isn't like we are talking about on the fly switching to another character or anything (loading screen would be sufficient.)

Edited June 17, 2014 by ninjonxb

[Flixx]

Their "Wall of Crazy" must be big enough to keep the Wildlings away.

[Heal-To-Full]

If we are going to walk down this route... Explain to me the legacy window that shows all of your legacy toons... The fact that GSF shows the companions you unlocked on other toons.

Why wouldn't they?

This does not require any information that has to be outside of your character's data. I don't have inside information on how it's done, but for example characters absolutely can not have duplicate names (and have to be given gibberish names if they do), while legacies don't even warn you that the name is duplicated. Legacy might be simply attached to all your characters and copy-pasted when changes are made or on login/logout.

 

They do have the sources and all, they do add own modules, but the engine is far from transparent.

 

I cannot think for the life of me how what is essentially a query to a database has anything related the engine.

Have you seen the HeroBlade kit? It's not a bunch of script windows where you type in SQL, it's very high-level. Most actions are done through its interfaces. Now, Group Finder is Bioware's own development, but it's most likely hooked up to the engine rather than run completely separate machine code and go straight to the databases.

 

Realistically, while a group of skilled programmers with time on their hands could bypass the engine entirely and insert code hooks to force it to do what's needed where needed, then iron out the bugs... realistically, goind down the path of least resistance, to make the group finder Q multiple characters, you would begin by logging in each of these characters.

 

And that's extra load on the servers. Plus you'd still be adding hooks to keep them invisible, to not show them up in searches, to stop their stim timers from running, and of course to prevent GF from glitching if you Q 8 of your alts.

[ninjonxb]

Why wouldn't they?

This does not require any information that has to be outside of your character's data. I don't have inside information on how it's done, but for example characters absolutely can not have duplicate names (and have to be given gibberish names if they do), while legacies don't even warn you that the name is duplicated. Legacy might be simply attached to all your characters and copy-pasted when changes are made or on login/logout.

 

To implement this feature though why would you need any data outside of your character's data?

Outside of any logic of how to handle it from the queue side of things.

A window that displays all of your characters with the roles they can fill with checkboxes.

Then if a toon gets selected that you are not on it could log you out of your current toon and log you into the new one.

(I know this is over simplifying things a bit and I am not saying its simple, but based on the fact that we already have data about other characters the engine isn't a limitation)

 

Also, at launch Legacy names were required to be unique and I believe continued to be unique through the big merge.

It was after the merge that they made legacy names not unique anymore.

 

 

Edit:

I have never seen Heroblade. However I have never seen any toolkit (or whatever word you want to call it) that would actually stop you from being able to build your own queries in addition to using built in libraries.

Hell I have seen some dirty Rails code that is using old SQL code instead of rewriting a method in rails (when transitioning a working system to Rails)

Edited June 17, 2014 by ninjonxb

[Flixx]

They could make it to where you don't get kicked from the GF once you enter a Warzone or GSF.

[TUXs]

They could make it to where you don't get kicked from the GF once you enter a Warzone or GSF.

 

I'd be fine with this. I'd rather know my wait is only 15min max vs an unlimited wait time without it.

[Heal-To-Full]

To implement this feature though why would you need any data outside of your character's data?

A window that displays all of your characters with the roles they can fill with checkboxes.

Then if a toon gets selected that you are not on it could log you out of your current toon and log you into the new one.

Well now.

 

How does a toon "get selected"?

You just said that other character data isn't used and characters aren't logged in. So they aren't each individually queued for the group finder.

So now what you do is you queue the currently logged in character only, but do it multirole, and then attach a toon name to each role, right?

Easy if you have a DPS, a tank, and a healer. But what if you have a DPS/tank, a healer/DPS, and a healer? If it's picked all at random, what if it picks healer/DPS and you preferred a pure healer for the healing role? Or does it let you pick, and if so, what does it show others before you make the choice?

 

Do you force a player to relog? It can take a while, it's a lot more likely that someone won't relog than just refuse a pop.

If they are free to refuse relogging, what happens to their position in the queue? Do you remove them from it, or do you correct for the refusal, and if so, how, in a way that will prevent it becoming an infinite loop?

When a queue window pops and half the players hit the Q on alts, what does the window show as character names, the ones logged in or ones assigned, and what if multiple are assigned?

While they players are relogging, which can take as much as 5 minutes, what is shown in place of their characters, since they aren't actually loaded yet and you don't want to use data outside of the current character?

 

You don't have to answer since it's just a forum, but if you gave me a task as described in the quote, this is maybe half of the off the top of my head questions I'd need clear unambiguous answers to before I could even start estimating how many people I would need, who specifically, and an always way off timeline for how long it would take.

 

 

Also, at launch Legacy names were required to be unique and I believe continued to be unique through the big merge. It was after the merge that they made legacy names not unique anymore.

I know. It's the fact that non-unique legacy names become possible, while non-unique character names absolutely aren't and a temporary name is given that you're forced to change (instead of just forcing you change a dupe name) indicates that characters aren't nested inside legacies; it's the other way around, legacies are attached to characters.

 

I have never seen Heroblade. However I have never seen any toolkit (or whatever word you want to call it) that would actually stop you from being able to build your own queries in addition to using built in libraries.

HeroBlade is more like Creation Kit, though with more options and more workload, than it is like a typical low or medium level SDK. They wanted to make MMO basic building easy... and as you know, the easier you make it to do usual everyday tasks, the harder it becomes to do something unusual.

[ninjonxb]

How does a toon "get selected"?

You just said that other character data isn't used and characters aren't logged in. So they aren't each individually queued for the group finder.

So now what you do is you queue the currently logged in character only, but do it multirole, and then attach a toon name to each role, right?

Easy if you have a DPS, a tank, and a healer. But what if you have a DPS/tank, a healer/DPS, and a healer? If it's picked all at random, what if it picks healer/DPS and you preferred a pure healer for the healing role? Or does it let you pick, and if so, what does it show others before you make the choice?

I mentioned earlier that this is the big problem I see with implementing such a system.

If such a system was implemented I would expect that if a player had multiple eligible characters the system would give a choice. However that also leads to an issue where (for example) there are 3 people in a queue. You have a tank and a healer. and the other 2 are DPS.

A "poorly" implemented solution to this could think that there are enough people to run the flashpoint. However once it gives you the choice you would be down to 3. Say you chose a tank but then a tank joins the queue, would it ask you again or switch you to healer? Would it only ask you if both roles had a fallback option?

 

All are valid concerns of a system like this and just keeps adding complication to an already somewhat complex system.

 

Do you force a player to relog? It can take a while, it's a lot more likely that someone won't relog than just refuse a pop.

If they are free to refuse relogging, what happens to their position in the queue? Do you remove them from it, or do you correct for the refusal, and if so, how, in a way that will prevent it becoming an infinite loop?

When a queue window pops and half the players hit the Q on alts, what does the window show as character names, the ones logged in or ones assigned, and what if multiple are assigned?

While they players are relogging, which can take as much as 5 minutes, what is shown in place of their characters, since they aren't actually loaded yet and you don't want to use data outside of the current character?

 

Honestly. If I were to implement such a system (and I was told to go the easiest way without pissing off the player) I would say...

(ignoring the issues posted above).

You get a screen listing all of your eligible characters.

With the tank/heal/dps text boxes next to them.

You check the roles and characters you want to join with.

 

When the queue pops it chooses a character. If the character is one you are not on a warning will come up saying that you will be switched.

The game then basically logs you out of your current character, and logs you into the new character.

Bonus points if it can transition you to the new area at the same time but if it can't we already have pop-up boxes implemented asking if you to transition to the instance.

 

 

 

As I have said before I think this is overly complicated and will not actually solve anything.