BW is forcing tanks to use accuracy?

[BuriDogshin]

There's no way I would even consider using my power/surge gear on my tank and in no way could I just swap 4 pieces on my Vanguard and become an effective tank.

I suspect you haven't tried. I have: I was running my DPS Jug in a pug SM16 S&V and one of the tanks quit. Leader asked me to tank, so I swapped my 180 focus for the 168 shield, changed stances, and off-tanked quite successfully. And that's just one piece that I swapped. And I did not respec either.

 

So, just as you can do sub-optimal healing using your DPS set, and vice-versa, you can do sub-optimal tanking on a DPS jug by just swapping a focus for a shield, or be sub-optimal DPS by just changing stances while in your tank gear. Since being sub-optimal seems to be acceptable to you (as it should be, since it is being adequate for the op that matters), I don't see your issue.

[Levram]

What next? Healers will need to stack accuracy for heals? I remind you - sorcerers pull NOT MISS.

Is it utility - yes. Is it have chances to miss - no.

Then why the hell tanks pull or push or SCC have to miss, huh?

Mechanics are the SAME.

 

Clearly you didn't actually read the developer post that I quoted, so again, with emphasis this time:

 

Hey folks!

 

I spoke with the combat team regarding this, and this is working as designed. Accuracy affects anything you attempt to do to a hostile target whether damage is being done or not. The only exceptions to this rule are abilities that taunt, which cannot be resisted per their tooltips.

 

-tait

Sorcerer pulls do not affect hostile targets, only your own teammates. The same applies to heals. Therefore they are not affected by accuracy and cannot miss.

[Malinok]

Getum ivs!

[Flixx]

I suspect you haven't tried. I have: I was running my DPS Jug in a pug SM16 S&V and one of the tanks quit. Leader asked me to tank, so I swapped my 180 focus for the 168 shield, changed stances, and off-tanked quite successfully. And that's just one piece that I swapped. And I did not respec either.

 

So, just as you can do sub-optimal healing using your DPS set, and vice-versa, you can do sub-optimal tanking on a DPS jug by just swapping a focus for a shield, or be sub-optimal DPS by just changing stances while in your tank gear. Since being sub-optimal seems to be acceptable to you (as it should be, since it is being adequate for the op that matters), I don't see your issue.

You swapped your 180 level piece for a 168 level? Nice that you have that luxury to do 16m SM in level 180 gear. I've seen Operative healers off tank SM content in level 180 gear..just saying. I'm just starting to get decent gear for PvE 162/168. There's no way I could pull off tanking on my vanguard in my gear. We are not all seasoned PvEers with higher level gear then the game requires.

[BuriDogshin]

You swapped your 180 level piece for a 168 level? Nice that you have that luxury to do 16m SM in level 180 gear.

Yes, it is. Most of my Imps are in a mix of 180/168 except a few 162 set-bonus armorings. My main Sorc heal is all 180 except two 168 SB armors, a 186 focus, and maybe 4 other 186 armor modifications - she's the one with 4 more pieces (180/168) for doing DPS in, which she shares with my other Sorc.

 

My pub toons, however, have to borrow from the Imps. Fortunately, I have a few Bound-to-Legacy armors and weapons. A few hundred, actually, mainly for leveling new alts.

 

My hours-having-fun to dollars-spent ratio for SWTOR is pretty high.

 

We are not all seasoned PvEers with higher level gear then the game requires.

But you probably could be if you wanted to be. That said, we all enjoy the game our own way, no right or wrong to it.

Edited June 16, 2014 by BuriDogshin

[MillionsKNives]

The second part of your post is incorrect in my view. Accuracy also affects interrupt chances of hitting and it used to also affects taunts and it also raises tech and force accuracy. All in all it was/is useful for more than just white damage as you yourself already say here since you agree that taunts had a miss chance before 2.0 So why contradict yourself? Still not saying it's the best idea but it's also not correct that it only affects white damage.

 

Before 2.0 there were two schools of thought. One said to completely ignore accuracy as the miss on taunts and interrupts was less of a loss than the loss in defensive stats. Another school said that actually stacking enough accuracy so that interrupts and taunts, specifically against bosses was better than putting everything in defensive stats as there were some key mechanics in boss fights where you wouldn't want to miss a taunt or interrupt. It is hard to compare the two since it would depend on the boss fights how useful that would be.

 

You should learn your history better. Interrupts and taunts could not miss before 2.0, because force/tech attacks could not miss. In 2.0 it was changed so that enemies have a 10% resist chance, giving force/tech a 10% chance to miss if you had anything less than 110% force/tech accuracy. This led to knockbacks, pulls, stuns, interrupts, and taunts now being able to miss, whereas they could not before 2.0. Due to outcry on the PTS, taunts were changed to be unable to miss.

 

If there was a debate about accuracy pre-2.0 (which I vaguely recall) then it would have been were whether the threat gained from attacks not missing was worth the loss of shield. Taunts and interrupts had no place in that debate because they were not governed by accuracy. If I remember correctly there was a debate that mainly centered on Juggs since a good portion of their attacks were melee instead of force and goverened by accuracy, unlike the other tanks which used mostly force/tech attacks.

 

Alot of the tank gear with accuracy comes from vendors, so.....you should be trying to get some drops. If your buying 180 gear and not playing NIMs then you could just buy 180 gloves and keep the armor with the set bonus from drops with 169

 

A good portion of the drops for tanks also come with accuracy and alacrity. I think it's the gloves, head, and one of the implants.

Edited June 16, 2014 by MillionsKNives

[Rafaman]

I missed with interrupt on my 55 sin tank during HM False emperor. When Malgus start channel Unlimited power (hits about 35k) you must interrupt it or it will cause wipe. Well unless you are overgear its damage.

My taunt was "resisted" and it cost of a healer and dps.

Second DPS and i survived only becouse we was really overgeared for this FP.

It wasn't lag or anything else.

So... Yes. Interrupts CAN be resisted. Or whatever BW called "working as intended".

 

Heh, just realized, folks... My interrupt was resisted by opponent that 5 levels below me...

But... Nah... BW said its fine... Right?

 

Weird. I'll take your word for it, but I have never had and interrupt "miss" on channels that can be interrupted. And that of course that includes Malgus channeled attack which... I have done god knows how many times. I have never had a taunt resisted. Now, lag has played a role and on a few occasions delayed the skill, but the skill in and of itself worked.

 

So... don't know what to tell you. Maybe you found something there, but I have been tanking with my Vanguard and my Shadow since launch and missing has not been and issue at all. Accuracy has never been a concern for me nor will it be. On my Vanguard I have very little accuracy, on my Shadow none. It has been of no consequence. I have cleared everything except NiM DP.

 

But because you say it so, it must be so... right?

[MillionsKNives]

Weird. I'll take your word for it, but I have never had and interrupt "miss" on channels that can be interrupted. And that of course that includes Malgus channeled attack which... I have done god knows how many times. I have never had a taunt resisted. Now, lag has played a role and on a few occasions delayed the skill, but the skill in and of itself worked.

 

So... don't know what to tell you. Maybe you found something there, but I have been tanking with my Vanguard and my Shadow since launch and missing has not been and issue at all. Accuracy has never been a concern for me nor will it be. On my Vanguard I have very little accuracy, on my Shadow none. It has been of no consequence. I have cleared everything except NiM DP.

 

But because you say it so, it must be so... right?

 

Perhaps you're not paying attention? Interrupts can miss with anything less than 110% force/tech accuracy. I've experienced it on my tank, my co-tank has experienced it, my healers have experienced it, and this isn't the first time it's been brought up on the forums. Oh, and also Tait confirmed it, though I completely disagree with the combat team's stance.

 

But because you say it isn't so, it must not be so... right?

[Rafaman]

Perhaps you're not paying attention? Interrupts can miss with anything less than 110% force/tech accuracy. I've experienced it on my tank, my co-tank has experienced it, my healers have experienced it, and this isn't the first time it's been brought up on the forums. Oh, and also Tait confirmed it, though I completely disagree with the combat team's stance.

 

But because you say it isn't so, it must not be so... right?

 

Hmm... I pay attention, as most tanks do. I haven't experienced it. Not once. Again, ability delay and lag is an issue from time to time but not the skill. I guess I must be the lucky one.

 

And for for my Ops group it has certainly not been an issue of any consequence.

 

So... we are making mountains out of molehills?

[MillionsKNives]

Hmm... I pay attention, as most tanks do. I haven't experienced it. Not once. Again, ability delay and lag is an issue from time to time but not the skill. I guess I must be the lucky one.

 

And for for my Ops group it has certainly not been an issue of any consequence.

 

So... we are making mountains out of molehills?

 

Well good for you then that your group hasn't wiped on Draxus because an interrupt was resisted. And that you're lucky enough (or are excusing as lag what's actually a resist) not to have seen your interrupt miss.

 

I'd much rather the devs fix the ability's mechanic, or not create encounters which requires healers and tanks to interrupt.

[lpope]

Hmm... I pay attention, as most tanks do. I haven't experienced it. Not once. Again, ability delay and lag is an issue from time to time but not the skill. I guess I must be the lucky one.

 

And for for my Ops group it has certainly not been an issue of any consequence.

 

So... we are making mountains out of molehills?

 

I myself have never seen the issue in Operations, but I have seen it a lot when interrupting (or at least attempting to interrupt) the commanders in H2+ area of Oricon. I've also seen the stealth mezz fail a lot on my operative healer in operations - that isn't too bad to deal with if you look for the debuff on the target.

 

I'm fairly lucky that I haven't seen the interrupt resist in operations. It does happen and it really isn't a huge deal because for the most part dps should be the ones interrupting and they should have 100 / 110% accuracy anyways. It's really just an annoyance and a dumb mechanic IMO.

[rklontz]

I'd much rather the devs fix the ability's mechanic, or not create encounters which requires healers and tanks to interrupt.

It's not broke and working as intended.

Other than taunting every hostile action should be affected by accuracy whether it's a melee attack, ranged attack or an interupt.

[Tsillah]

You should learn your history better. Interrupts and taunts could not miss before 2.0, because force/tech attacks could not miss. In 2.0 it was changed so that enemies have a 10% resist chance, giving force/tech a 10% chance to miss if you had anything less than 110% force/tech accuracy. This led to knockbacks, pulls, stuns, interrupts, and taunts now being able to miss, whereas they could not before 2.0. Due to outcry on the PTS, taunts were changed to be unable to miss.

 

If there was a debate about accuracy pre-2.0 (which I vaguely recall) then it would have been were whether the threat gained from attacks not missing was worth the loss of shield. Taunts and interrupts had no place in that debate because they were not governed by accuracy. If I remember correctly there was a debate that mainly centered on Juggs since a good portion of their attacks were melee instead of force and goverened by accuracy, unlike the other tanks which used mostly force/tech attacks.

 

Listen, I might be confused about the history but my point was that there was a time where some people did say some accuracy was useful for tanks. I don't really care what was changed when exactly or which update changed what. I was only saying there were times that there was a point in using accuracy on tanks at least according to some people as I too remember there was a debate.

 

If you feel know the history exactly, that's great. I still don't care. My only point was that I distinctly remember people talking about accuracy and some thinking it was a good idea and some thinking it wasn't. That's all. But of course discussion get derailed so I am not surprised.

 

Again I don't give a rat's *** when exactly it was that this discussion took place about accuracy, I was originally just pointing out that it happened and went by what other people said in this thread as far as the history is concerned.

 

Bottom line is that accuracy does affect some things and can be useful for a tank and there were times where this option was considered more than nowadays. That's it. I just know this was a point at some time ago. If you say it was then or then is fine by me. I just got annoyed by people denying it was ever considered a viable option by tanks. I just went by whatever people here were saying about patch notes. I have no idea which patch notes did what exactly. So feel free to feel like a great SWTOR patch knowledge fountain.

 

As you indicated the discussion was there yourself I am quite happy to let you be the history buff and I can be happy that indeed you confirmed my original point that this discussion was there. So we can both be happy.

[wainot-keel]

It's not broke and working as intended.

Other than taunting every hostile action should be affected by accuracy whether it's a melee attack, ranged attack or an interupt.

 

It doesn't matter if it's working as intended. What matters is that for certain fight mechanics involving interrupts tanks and healers are in a clear disadvantage.

DPS have to stack accuracy so of course for them this is a non issue. But tanks/healers, in order to reliably execute these fight mechanics, have to gimp themselves by either putting accuracy on their gear or waste an CD (accuracy adrenal).

That's the issue.

[MillionsKNives]

It's not broke and working as intended.

Other than taunting every hostile action should be affected by accuracy whether it's a melee attack, ranged attack or an interupt.

 

Working as intended does not mean that their intention is right and that it should not be fixed. In my opinion their intention is wrong, and their fight mechanics are in conflict with it. So either change the taunt mechanics or change the fight mechanics.

Edited June 16, 2014 by MillionsKNives

[BuriDogshin]

It doesn't matter if it's working as intended. What matters is that for certain fight mechanics involving interrupts tanks and healers are in a clear disadvantage.

For certain fight mechanics, DPS without a self-cleanse are at a clear disadvantage.

For certain fight mechanics, "turret" classes are at a clear disadvantage compared to more mobile classes.

And so on. So classes have strengths and weaknesses ... isn't that what we want?

[PlasmaJohn]

I'd much rather the devs fix the ability's mechanic, or not create encounters which requires healers and tanks to interrupt.

Correcting the ability mechanic is a fix forever. I'm much less confident in the content team's grasp of class mechanics. But what do I know, I'm just a dumb melee DPS? (dumb for preferring melee that is)

[PlasmaJohn]

So classes have strengths and weaknesses ... isn't that what we want?

Classes, yes. Roles, not so much. When a fight requires nDPS+1 interrupters things get dodgy.

[Levram]

It doesn't matter if it's working as intended. What matters is that for certain fight mechanics involving interrupts tanks and healers are in a clear disadvantage.

 

In my opinion their intention is wrong, and their fight mechanics are in conflict with it. So either change the taunt mechanics or change the fight mechanics.

 

As I stated above, there are only two fights in the entire game where healer and tank accuracy is critical:

1. Nightmare Styrak for dealing with his Box 'o Death
   
2. Nightmare Draxus (with Nightmare Power on) for Corruptor interrupts.
   

 

Now that nightmare power has been turned off for Draxus, Mass Afflication can be healed through in Phase 8 if an interrupt misses. Therefore there is one mechanic in one fight in all of the operation content which is critically affected by tank and healer accuracy. Only a fraction of a percent of the entire game's player base even sees nightmare Styrak. Plus it is also the last boss of a nightmare operation. It adds some additional strategy to the fight in terms of considering who will deal with what corner of the Box, and how. And yes, I have dealt with that fight mechanic as a healer and as a tank.

 

Tank and healer accuracy is not a major problem and everyone is making a mountain out of a mole hill. If the Developers add new content that also critically relies on tank and healer interrupts, then yes, it could become a problem, but right now, it is not even close to one.

[MillionsKNives]

If the Developers add new content that also critically relies on tank and healer interrupts, then yes, it could become a problem, but right now, it is not even close to one.

 

NM DF is new content. It was only added two months ago. Also mass affliction going off isn't exactly a breeze to heal through. There's no reason that bad design should cause it to go off when everyone performs correctly.

[BuriDogshin]

Classes, yes. Roles, not so much. When a fight requires nDPS+1 interrupters things get dodgy.

 

So for that fight, and I do not know whether you have a specific one in mind, could you not:

1. Change a tank or healer's gear around a little (e.g. Accuracy augments),
   
2. Use an Accuracy adrenal, or
   
3. Hope you don't unlucky?
   

 

And seriously, don't we all choose Option 3 on just about any challenging content?

Has anyone not ever wiped because of bad luck?

[Levram]

NM DF is new content. It was only added two months ago. Also mass affliction going off isn't exactly a breeze to heal through. There's no reason that bad design should cause it to go off when everyone performs correctly.

 

We never missed an interrupt on nightmare Draxus once we finalized our strategy. Tanks were responsible for nothing. Healers each interrupted once in Phase 8 and popped an accuracy adrenal beforehand. They never missed.

[Kingsbount]

It's not broke and working as intended.

Other than taunting every hostile action should be affected by accuracy whether it's a melee attack, ranged attack or an interupt.

 

And who's said that? BW combat team?

I don't believe any word from them. They failed too much times to earn trust.

Also, this phrase - "working as intended", exellent way to hide fails.

BW, are you srew up again? - Noooo... It's working as intended.

[Khevar]

3. Hope you don't unlucky?

 

And seriously, don't we all choose Option 3 on just about any challenging content?

Has anyone not ever wiped because of bad luck?

A mechanic that causes a wipe due to "bad luck" is inferior to a mechanic that causes a wipe due to mistakes by the players themselves.

Edited June 16, 2014 by Khevar

[rklontz]

And who's said that? BW combat team?

I don't believe any word from them. They failed too much times to earn trust.

Also, this phrase - "working as intended", exellent way to hide fails.

BW, are you srew up again? - Noooo... It's working as intended.

 

Seriously how about

Quote: Originally Posted by TaitWatson

Hey folks!

I spoke with the combat team regarding this, and

this is working as designed. Accuracy affects

anything you attempt to do

to a hostile target

whether damage is being done or not. The only

exceptions to this rule are abilities that taunt,

which cannot be resisted per their tooltips.

-tait

 

Even though the design team has stated that's the way they want it to work and thats the way they made work you think they are lying to you and it actually isnt.

Edited June 17, 2014 by rklontz