Discrepancies in the "Nature of the Force"

[StarSquirrel]

Was there ever a formal agreement?

 

From what I see in the PT and TCW, it seems that the Jedi generally report to the chancellor's office. They operate independently but also accept missions from him (not the Senate, from what I've seen).

 

The Jedi councils seem to govern the Jedi internally, and occasionally handle outside disputes. I'm really unclear on how they formally relate to the Republic government.

 

And then there's still the question of why the Republic military generally defers to the Jedi during wartime, appointing them as generals, etc.

 

Well I think the "General" part was more a product of the GAR's programming/conditioning to obey Jedi. But I agree that it doesn't make sense to just hand over extremely high military positions to members of your government's religious sect purely based on the fact they are a member of that sect even if it is a quasi-military organization.

 

General Etain Tur-Mukan was pretty confused about the whole "General" thing, the Republic Commando series asks questions like this (one of the reasons I loved it).

 

I mean, on the scale of Sidious's master plan it makes sense... But it doesn't make sense that everyone went along with it.

[tunewalker]

As far as I can tell it Jedi ARE warriors, in times of peace, peace isnt every where. They essentially become multiple things acting as both Diplomats and occassionally as the Swat team/ PI/ Detectives. They are upholders of the peace, upholders of the law. And act in that fashion.

 

In a place with no formal Military the people with the most combat experience are easily the ones you turn to.

 

Other then that they are trained and prepared for Military combat through out all ages to begin with in addition to having all the skills neccisary to both fight, investigate and negotiate treaties and surrenders.

[Ventessel]

Well I think the "General" part was more a product of the GAR's programming/conditioning to obey Jedi. But I agree that it doesn't make sense to just hand over extremely high military positions to members of your government's religious sect purely based on the fact they are a member of that sect even if it is a quasi-military organization.

 

General Etain Tur-Mukan was pretty confused about the whole "General" thing, the Republic Commando series asks questions like this (one of the reasons I loved it).

 

I mean, on the scale of Sidious's master plan it makes sense... But it doesn't make sense that everyone went along with it.

 

That might explain things in the context of the Clone Wars, but it seems like Jedi have been placed in positions of military authority throughout Republic history. How much of this is the writers of Star Wars materiel inherently favoring force users over average people? I don't know.

 

To a large extent, the Jedi are the Super Heroes of the Star Wars universe. I think that the mythos and nature of the Jedi/Sith abilities appeals to us as an audience, but in a sense I think that we also see "normal" people in the galaxy relegated to the status of secondary actors in the galaxy. It's almost as though only Force users have the ability to accomplish significant things. Anyone who exhibits extraordinary ability in a certain field tends to get it explained away as having untapped Force potential. Does anyone else get that sense?

 

As far as I can tell it Jedi ARE warriors, in times of peace, peace isnt every where. They essentially become multiple things acting as both Diplomats and occassionally as the Swat team/ PI/ Detectives. They are upholders of the peace, upholders of the law. And act in that fashion.

 

In a place with no formal Military the people with the most combat experience are easily the ones you turn to.

 

Other then that they are trained and prepared for Military combat through out all ages to begin with in addition to having all the skills neccisary to both fight, investigate and negotiate treaties and surrenders.

 

But the Republic DOES have a formal military. It's in decay during the latter days of the Republic, but back in the times of the Jedi Civil War it was far more vibrant.

 

Otherwise, I agree with you. It seems that the primary responsibility of the Jedi is to train for war.

 

But why are they so confused and conflicted on this matter? They are constantly bemoaning the fact that war always leads to the dark side, and that their lightsabers are tools not weapons, etc.

 

This strikes me as silly. Obviously lightsabers are weapons! Every Jedi carries one, and trains extensively in combat techniques. I feel like it's time for the Jedi to own up and accept the fact that they're basically the Republic's emergency defense force/trump card. Yes, they perform other duties, but those duties are generally performed in the ABSENCE of warfare/conflict.

[DarknessInLight]

NOTE: BOLD typeface indicates my responses

 

 

So the question I pose here is two fold:

 

Firstly, what makes someone strong in the Force? And how does that affect them?

(From what I have seen, most authors have blurred it into a nearly infinite magical energy that can accomplish anything and everything... in the wisdom of the forums, is there a consensus on how the Force operates?)

 

 

 

Oh....how the Prequel Haters are going to jump all over this answer, as accurate as it's going to be.

 

A Force User's affinity for the Force is defined by the number of Midichlorians found in their blood. It is through this microscopic lifeform that the very connection to the Force is possible. Everyone has them in their blood, but Force Sensitives, or those who can physically touch and manipulate the Force, have higher levels of them in their blood. At the age of nine, young Anakin Skywalker measured over 20,000 Midichlorians in a single drop of blood, which was unheard of at that time. Darth Sidious' midichlorian count is purported to be MUCH higher than that.

 

Second, what determines the measure of a Jedi?

and what's the deal with lightsabers?

 

We're keepers of the Peace, not soldiers. - Mace Windu

 

For over a thousand generations, the Jedi Knights were the Guardians of Peace and Justice in the Old Republic. Before the Dark Times. Before the Empire. - Obi Wan "Ben" Kenobi

 

Jedi don't measure themselves, at least not by their body counts. The Jedi have always been Guardians of Peace and Justice in the galaxy and are supposed to be selfless servants of the Force. Violence is a last resort for the true Jedi. The "measure" of a Jedi, if you will, is in their exposure to and resistance of the Dark Side of the Force. There is a term the Jedi used frequently: Solah. Translated it means it is enough, and so it is with a Jedi.

 

If a Jedi ignites his lightsaber, he must be ready to take a life. If he is not so prepared, he must keep his weapon at his side.-Master Odan-Urr

 

Master Odan-Urr went on to write the tenets that would become the foundation for the Jedi Code. He understood that the lightsaber was just a tool of the Jedi and that Jedi should strive to be diplomatic first before resorting to violence and that if the situation degraded to violence, that tended to constitute failure on the part of the Jedi.

Edited June 18, 2014 by DarknessInLight

[Ventessel]

NOTE: BOLD typeface indicates my responses

Oh....how the Prequel Haters are going to jump all over this answer, as accurate as it's going to be.

 

A Force User's affinity for the Force is defined by the number of Midichlorians found in their blood. It is through this microscopic lifeform that the very connection to the Force is possible. Everyone has them in their blood, but Force Sensitives, or those who can physically touch and manipulate the Force, have higher levels of them in their blood. At the age of nine, young Anakin Skywalker measured over 20,000 Midichlorians in a single drop of blood, which was unheard of at that time. Darth Sidious' midichlorian count is purported to be MUCH higher than that.

 

So, hypothetical here... if you inject midichlorians into your blood, will you heighten your affinity for the Force? Since the Old Republic Jedi make little to no mention of them (correct me if I'm wrong here) can we assume that they had not been discovered back then? If so, when was this discovery made?

We're keepers of the Peace, not soldiers. - Mace Windu

 

For over a thousand generations, the Jedi Knights were the Guardians of Peace and Justice in the Old Republic. Before the Dark Times. Before the Empire. - Obi Wan "Ben" Kenobi

I've heard this quite a bit... let's examine Master Windu's quote.

 

If the Jedi are NOT soldiers... why do they jump in line to fight as SOLDIERS for the Old Republic? Quibble over the vernacular if you will, but the people flying starfighters, leading troops, and slashing stuff to pieces with lightsabers are most definitely fighting a war... which, by definition, is what soldiers do.

 

So is Mace Windu;

a. Confused as to what soldiers are?

b. Unsure of how peace relates to war (namely the part where soldiers end the war, thus restoring peace)

c. A liar

Jedi don't measure themselves, at least not by their body counts. The Jedi have always been Guardians of Peace and Justice in the galaxy and are supposed to be selfless servants of the Force. Violence is a last resort for the true Jedi. The "measure" of a Jedi, if you will, is in their exposure to and resistance of the Dark Side of the Force. There is a term the Jedi used frequently: Solah. Translated it means it is enough, and so it is with a Jedi.

I am very confused. Here is why...

1. Jedi serve the Force -- How? Is the Force God? Does it give commands?

2. Violence is the last resort of any reasonable man, including any well trained soldier!

3. Jedi are better the more Dark Side badness they resist? If so, shouldn't they seek challenging situations to test their self mastery and resistance to those nasty feelings of fear, anger, and hatred?

4. What the heck is enough? What did the Jedi use that term for? Ordering wine? (Thank you, but Solah!)

If a Jedi ignites his lightsaber, he must be ready to take a life. If he is not so prepared, he must keep his weapon at his side.-Master Odan-Urr

I agree. The old adage goes; if you threaten someone, be prepared to carry out that threat. A lightsaber is an implicit threat, merely by being present the Jedi suggest the possibility of overwhelming violence. There is literally no use for a lightsaber aside from violence (I've heard the "it's a meditation focus bit before... they didn't buy that at the airport with my grenade launcher and I'm not buying it here either)

Edited June 19, 2014 by Ventessel

[DarknessInLight]

So, hypothetical here... if you inject midichlorians into your blood, will you heighten your affinity for the Force? Since the Old Republic Jedi make little to no mention of them (correct me if I'm wrong here) can we assume that they had not been discovered back then? If so, when was this discovery made?

 

If only "making" someone strong in the Force was possible. The Imperial Remnant tried that after the death of Darth Sidious. They tried to imbue people with the Force artificially through crystals(with the assumption that these rare crystals had the Force in them. It failed. Midichlorians are in every living being and creature in the Star Wars galaxy. It's the level of Midichlorians in the blood that dictates whether a sentient being can manipulate the Force.

 

As far as we can tell, the Midichlorians hadn't been discovered at the time of TOR. You have to think of TOR's timeframe as being like World War 2. We werent starting to make large strides in scientific/medical discovery until around the end of the war. Look where we are 70 years later. It's possible that scientific discoveries such as this had still yet to be made, and usually when there is a war like this, research like that tends to take a backseat to military applications.

 

 

I've heard this quite a bit... let's examine Master Windu's quote.

 

If the Jedi are NOT soldiers... why do they jump in line to fight as SOLDIERS for the Old Republic? Quibble over the vernacular if you will, but the people flying starfighters, leading troops, and slashing stuff to pieces with lightsabers are most definitely fighting a war... which, by definition, is what soldiers do.

 

So is Mace Windu;

a. Confused as to what soldiers are?

b. Unsure of how peace relates to war (namely the part where soldiers end the war, thus restoring peace)

c. A liar

 

Mace Windu is a proponent of peace, as the Jedi during his time served as peacekeepers UNTIL the Clone Wars broke out. Remember that when he says "Jedi are not soldiers", he is answering Chancellor Palpatine's response:

 

PALPATINE : I don't know how much longer I can hold off the vote, my friends. More and more star systems are

joining the separatists.

 

MACE WINDU: If they do break away -

 

PALPATINE: I will NOT let this Republic, which has stood for a thousand years, be split in two! My negotiations will not fail

 

MACE WINDU: If they do, you must realize there aren't enough Jedi to protect the Republic. We are

keepers of the peace, NOT soldiers.

 

Its not that Mace is confused. Jedi kill only when they have to, even in war. Soldiers kill in war because if they don't, someone will kill them. He wasn't that thrilled to put the Jedi into another war. The Jedi had not seen open war for roughly a thousand years.

 

I am very confused. Here is why...

1. Jedi serve the Force -- How? Is the Force God? Does it give commands?

2. Violence is the last resort of any reasonable man, including any well trained soldier!

3. Jedi are better the more Dark Side badness they resist? If so, shouldn't they seek challenging situations to test their self mastery and resistance to those nasty feelings of fear, anger, and hatred?

4. What the heck is enough? What did the Jedi use that term for? Ordering wine? (Thank you, but Solah!)[/color]

 

1. Seriously? Jedi believe that they are extensions of the Will of the Force. Remember what Qui Gon Jinn said to Anakin?

 

ANAKIN : Master Qui-Gon, sir, I do not wish to be a problem.

QUI-GON : You won't be, Annie. I'm not allowed to train you, so I want

you to watch me and be mindful...always remember, your focus determines

your reality. Stay close to me and you will be safe.

ANAKIN : Master, sir...I've been wondering...what are midi-chlorians?

QUI-GON : Midi-chlorians are a microscopic lifeform that reside within all

living cells and communicates with the Force.

ANAKIN : They live inside of me?

QUI-GON : In your cells. We are symbionts with them.

ANAKIN : Symbionts?

QUI-GON : Life forms living together for mutual advantage. Without the

midi-chlorians, life could not exist, and we would have no knowledge of the

Force. They continually speak to you, telling you the will of the Force.

ANAKIN : They do??

QUI-GON : When you learn to quiet your mind, you will hear them speaking to

you.

ANAKIN : I don't understand.

QUI-GON : With time and training, Annie...you will.

 

Obviously he doesn't mean literally that the Force will talk to you, its just that the Jedi can be shown something through the Force that they can use to their advantage. A perfect example of this is when Obi Wan Kenobi is hanging over the edge of the reactor pit with Darth Maul standing over him. We are shown that something is reminding Kenobi that his master's saber is lying on the floor and can be used. That's the Force "talking" to Kenobi, bailing him out of a tight spot.

 

2. In war, Soldiers in history have been taught to kill or be killed. Jedi do not kill unless absolutely necessary. An example of this is where Obi Wan disarms Zam Wesell, the Mercenary hired to assassinate Padme Amidala in AOTC. She had her blaster drawn, he spun around and sliced off her hand, which allows her to live for questioning while still eliminating the threat she previously posed. Obviously Jango Fett had other plans.

 

3. Jedi do not seek challenges.

 

Adventure? Hmpf. Excitement? Heh. A Jedi craves not these things. You are reckless. - Yoda

 

It is when the Jedi is confronted by the Dark Side's temptations that they measure themselves. A Padawan's trials to Knighthood requires that they confront the Dark Side of the Force. Obi Wan Kenobi was supposed to take the trials in order to become a Jedi Knight. Once the Jedi determined that the assassin sent to kill Queen Amidala was indeed a Sith Lord, one that had been killed by Kenobi, he did not need to the take the trials and had become a Knight.

 

4. The word "Solah" was a term used by the Jedi during training sessions, especially with Lightsaber velocities, to indicate to stop. It translates as "Enough".

Edited June 19, 2014 by DarknessInLight

[uncle_monty]

It seems to me that the Jedi spend far more time providing support for Republic military actions (be it against rebels, pirates, Dark Jedi, or foreign military forces) than they do... helping people. I don't see any arm of the Jedi dedicated to building houses, or feeding the poor. So what do they do aside from kill people and mediate disputes?

 

In answer to your question::-- What about the Agricultural Corp it seems a noble cause? Although I have read little about it aside from it being the main cause of fear (ironic for an institution that want's its member to not feel it) of many padawans in the EU. Obi-Wan was close to joining it's ranks and it was something that Scout was expecting to happen as she was known to be 'weak' in the force. I think this has little written regarding it as it is clearly a difficult subject to set what are essentually a series of hero stories.

 

This 'strength in the force' idea I see as akin to a force-sensitive individual being able to the another's strength as we would a footprint for example.

 

Edit::;- Just done some research and here's a link::-- http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Jedi_Service_Corps

 

It seems that they do quite a lot of good.

Edited June 19, 2014 by uncle_monty
Informaion

[Ventessel]

If only "making" someone strong in the Force was possible. The Imperial Remnant tried that after the death of Darth Sidious. They tried to imbue people with the Force artificially through crystals(with the assumption that these rare crystals had the Force in them. It failed. Midichlorians are in every living being and creature in the Star Wars galaxy. It's the level of Midichlorians in the blood that dictates whether a sentient being can manipulate the Force.

 

So, crystals were obviously a fail. But that still doesn't answer the question of whether you can inject midichlorians. If they can be measured and detected, surely it must be possible to filter them. Instead of blood platelet injection, why not a midichlorian injection? Just siphon a ton of them from low-level sensitives and concentrate it in an uber-serum!

Mace Windu is a proponent of peace, as the Jedi during his time served as peacekeepers UNTIL the Clone Wars broke out. Remember that when he says "Jedi are not soldiers", he is answering Chancellor Palpatine's response:

 

PALPATINE : I don't know how much longer I can hold off the vote, my friends. More and more star systems are

joining the separatists.

 

MACE WINDU: If they do break away -

 

PALPATINE: I will NOT let this Republic, which has stood for a thousand years, be split in two! My negotiations will not fail

 

MACE WINDU: If they do, you must realize there aren't enough Jedi to protect the Republic. We are

keepers of the peace, NOT soldiers.

 

Its not that Mace is confused. Jedi kill only when they have to, even in war. Soldiers kill in war because if they don't, someone will kill them. He wasn't that thrilled to put the Jedi into another war. The Jedi had not seen open war for roughly a thousand years.

This quote makes far more sense in context, thank you! When taken out of context, it seems that Mace is being contradictory. With the full context, it seems like more of a warning that the Jedi are too small to properly guard the entire Republic.

1. Seriously? Jedi believe that they are extensions of the Will of the Force.

Obviously he doesn't mean literally that the Force will talk to you, its just that the Jedi can be shown something through the Force that they can use to their advantage. A perfect example of this is when Obi Wan Kenobi is hanging over the edge of the reactor pit with Darth Maul standing over him. We are shown that something is reminding Kenobi that his master's saber is lying on the floor and can be used. That's the Force "talking" to Kenobi, bailing him out of a tight spot.

I think that was a directing decision so that we were given insight (as an audience) into what Obi-Wan was thinking about. As far as evidence for the Force "talking" to him... it's a pretty scant case at best.

There is still no evidence as to what the Will of the Force could be. Does the Force think? Does it make decisions?

It seems to more often manifest itself as a survival instinct/quick reflex boost for Jedi.

2. In war, Soldiers in history have been taught to kill or be killed. Jedi do not kill unless absolutely necessary. An example of this is where Obi Wan disarms Zam Wesell, the Mercenary hired to assassinate Padme Amidala in AOTC. She had her blaster drawn, he spun around and sliced off her hand, which allows her to live for questioning while still eliminating the threat she previously posed. Obviously Jango Fett had other plans.

Soldiers take prisoners as well. One of the most common missions for a special forces team is to gather intelligence by scouting and capturing enemy soldiers for information. This was a tactical decision on Obi-Wan's part, since he would have actually undermined his own efforts by killing her.

 

You seem to be making a strange distinction between Jedi and soldiers when they fight. On the battlefield, their actions will be the same. A Jedi will fight to defend themselves, as will soldiers. When they need prisoners, or have the ability to take them without being killed, they will. ( "Set for stun!" anyone?)

 

It is when the Jedi is confronted by the Dark Side's temptations that they measure themselves. A Padawan's trials to Knighthood requires that they confront the Dark Side of the Force. Obi Wan Kenobi was supposed to take the trials in order to become a Jedi Knight. Once the Jedi determined that the assassin sent to kill Queen Amidala was indeed a Sith Lord, one that had been killed by Kenobi, he did not need to the take the trials and had become a Knight.

This seems very odd. You say that a Jedi shouldn't look for challenges, but apparently killing a Sith Lord in single combat qualifies one for the rank of Jedi Knight? That's a heck of a challenge. And if the Jedi aren't supposed to seek a challenge... how do the trials test them if not by challenging their abilities? This just seems to be another huge discrepancy in the espoused values of the Jedi (not craving adventure) and their actions (accepting a lethal duel as the rank requirement for Jedi Knight)

4. The word "Solah" was a term used by the Jedi during training sessions, especially with Lightsaber velocities, to indicate to stop. It translates as "Enough".

Thanks for the information, but I'm not sure this bit is entirely relevant haha.

[Beniboybling]

Slight literary license, haha. But during the periods of peace... what do the Jedi do? Seriously. Did they legitimately spend 1,000 years just mediating disputes between planetary governments and organizations?

 

If the Jedi are not inherently a military organization... why does the Republic turn over command of fleets and armies to them by default? In the Clone Wars, the Mandalorian Wars, Jedi Civil war, etc. the Republic military essentially makes Jedi into automatic generals and admirals to command their forces.

 

I find this extremely odd if the Jedi had the primary directive of preserving peace and justice. What qualifies them to be military leaders? Why would the even WANT to accept that role anyways?

 

It seems to me that the Jedi spend far more time providing support for Republic military actions (be it against rebels, pirates, Dark Jedi, or foreign military forces) than they do... helping people. I don't see any arm of the Jedi dedicated to building houses, or feeding the poor. So what do they do aside from kill people and mediate disputes?

 

This is a matter of perspective.

 

YOU, as a Star Wars fan who has seen the majority of the Star Wars universe through the eyes of Jedi or those closely allied with them, would trust a Jedi.

 

The average galactic citizen? They know VERY little about the Jedi. They're strange, secretive monks who wield a mysterious power which allows them to perform crazy feats of athleticism and mind control. Sometimes, they decide to be evil and take over the galaxy and thousands of people die in the ensuing turmoil.

 

Would you want THAT guy mediating your disputes?

 

I'm thinking of two primary examples of Jedi mediation, feel free to contribute other specific examples.

 

First is the beginning of Phantom Menace. Trade dispute between Naboo and the Federation... which somehow resulted in an invasion??? We'll pretend that movie made sense somehow and just take it as fact that Jedi are sent to resolve those types of situations.

 

Second example is in KotOR on Dantooine when Revan/Player-Character is called upon to help resolve cases involving various settlers and farmers who have grievances with each other.

1. Refer to my previous posts and the Jedi Path. Diplomatic roles make up a fraction of what the Jedi do. Furthermore peace is the absence of war, not the absence of violence and suffering - and the galaxy is a big place.

 

That said it can be divided into categories, resolving diplomatic disputes, enforcing law and order, and studying the Force. They are policemen, diplomats, scholars and warriors all at once, and in a galaxy containing billions of stars that is quite a hell of a lot to do. I can assure they are very busy indeed. I suggest you look into this yourself.

 

2. The Clone Wars is the only war I can recall where the Jedi simply by being Jedi hold military ranks - and that was likely a result of the formation of the Grand Army of the Republic, and what with the Jedi having such a long reputation of defending the Republic in war time, and most likely thanks to Sidious' machinations, it was made law.

 

But look at previous wars and its hit and miss. Some Jedi have ranks, some just don't, and its always awarded on merit. You won't see any Padawans holding the rank of commander that's for sure. Heck aside from Revan, Malak and Surik, I'm struggling to think of any Jedi who were given a military rank at all, I'm sure there are a few...

 

So no, the Jedi shouldn't be considered "in charge" or responsible for military operations. But obviously as defenders of the Republic is definitely going to come under their mandate. And they have proven themselves to be wise and responsible leaders so why not give them military titles? It certainly worked during the Clone Wars.

 

And I assume they have extensive training in military tactics, since they are so darn good at it. Wouldn't you say so? At it is at the forefront of the battle that they can ensure that "attack" is used in a responsible way.

 

3. Like you said literary license, because "Kenobi Builds a House" would make for a great book right? Regardless building houses and helping the poor would be quite the waste of a Jedi's skills, I mean seriously a droid can do that. I'm sure there are plenty of govt. schemes dedicated to such issues, Jedi prefer to deal with larger problems.

 

Like mediating disputes, protecting innocents from criminals, reconnaissance and recovery etc. etc. saving lives. Not saving cats from trees and helping old grandma across the road. They are Jedi for crying out loud.

 

Now I don't mean to be rude or anything but I'd suggest expanding on your knowledge, read up on any famous Jedi, Kenobi etc. on Wookieepedia and you can find out just what they got up to prior to the Clone Wars.

 

4. A fair point, but that doesn't stop the fact that they are good at what they do. And the reputation of the Jedi is generally a good one, word of their heroics would most certainly spread. And they have the backing of the Republic.

 

I mean have you played the Jedi Knight storyline (feel free to count the number of people he helps) - you aren't exactly treated with hostility, people are throwing themselves at your feet asking for your aid.

[Ventessel]

It seems to me that the Jedi spend far more time providing support for Republic military actions (be it against rebels, pirates, Dark Jedi, or foreign military forces) than they do... helping people. I don't see any arm of the Jedi dedicated to building houses, or feeding the poor. So what do they do aside from kill people and mediate disputes?

 

In answer to your question::-- What about the Agricultural Corp it seems a noble cause? Although I have read little about it aside from it being the main cause of fear (ironic for an institution that want's its member to not feel it) of many padawans in the EU. Obi-Wan was close to joining it's ranks and it was something that Scout was expecting to happen as she was known to be 'weak' in the force. I think this has little written regarding it as it is clearly a difficult subject to set what are essentually a series of hero stories.

 

This 'strength in the force' idea I see as akin to a force-sensitive individual being able to the another's strength as we would a footprint for example.

 

Edit::;- Just done some research and here's a link::-- http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Jedi_Service_Corps

 

It seems that they do quite a lot of good.

 

That's kind of the issue... it was a source of fear for padawans! "Real" Jedi weren't in the Service Corps. It's almost as if the Jedi look down on people who aren't "strong enough" in the Force to be capable fighters.

 

At the same time, they hold this strangely hypocritical view of warfare. It's something that they are apparently extremely good at, and train extensively in, but they repeatedly deny that it's one of their core missions. There is just this really weird hypocritical vibe running through everything the Jedi do.

 

For example:

Lightsabers are not weapons! .... "This weapon is your LIFE, Anakin!" ~ Obi-Wan Kenobi

No relationships allowed, they lead to the dark side! (But force sensitive bloodlines are not only commonplace, but shown to produce the strongest Jedi...)

Jedi are servants of the Force... but really, they're just there to back up the Republic's word.

[uncle_monty]

That's kind of the issue... it was a source of fear for padawans! "Real" Jedi weren't in the Service Corps. It's almost as if the Jedi look down on people who aren't "strong enough" in the Force to be capable fighters.

 

Remove the first five words of the final sentence, they do look down on them, there is no other way of looking at it.

 

At the same time, they hold this strangely hypocritical view of warfare. It's something that they are apparently extremely good at, and train extensively in, but they repeatedly deny that it's one of their core missions. There is just this really weird hypocritical vibe running through everything the Jedi do.

 

Again there is, this is a fact, as I will demonstrate below.

 

For example:

Lightsabers are not weapons! .... "This weapon is your LIFE, Anakin!" ~ Obi-Wan Kenobi

No relationships allowed, they lead to the dark side! (But force sensitive bloodlines are not only commonplace, but shown to produce the strongest Jedi...)

Jedi are servants of the Force... but really, they're just there to back up the Republic's word.

 

A common misconception is that Star Wars (the films) is a story of 'good' and 'evil' in fact it's much more complex. I know little of George Lucas, but if he wanted to depict a 'good' Jedi and 'evil' Sith then he failed miserably, the Jedi cannot be considered a 'good' institution in any sense of the word.

 

There are, as you pointed out, a great number of hypocrisies regarding the Jedi and their Republic. "Good is a point of view Annakin" (Palpatine). In reality the story shows us so many mistakes that the 'rules' of Yoda's Jedi Order are simply out of date and unrealistic. As you yourself pointed out the attachment rule is just one as this 'can lead to jealousy' so this rule is based on a preconceived 'fear' another of the feelings that Jedi's must try to avoid. It's just so stupid it's beyond belief. The Jedi order pretty much wants it's members who do not volunteer to join, (but rather are recruited by abduction) to act as sentient droids. Except when it suits them of course, as this 'rule' is relaxed to allow a knight (Ki-Adi-Mundi) to have a polygamous selection of wives as he is one of the few males of his species. The hypocrisy expands to meet the needs of the expanding hypocrisy.

 

Then there's their particular method of recruitment. I used to call them the baby snatchers. So you took my child from me did not allow us contact of any kind, and turned him into a farmer.... Great! Who would release their children to such an institution? The desperate and poor. And they wonder why they are treated with suspicion?

 

Then there is their enemies the Sith. "You were supposed to destroy the Sith, not join them!" (Kennobi). Remember that the Sith were initially a species, I doubt we need to look far into why they have been wiped out. The Jedi think 'balance' will be the removal of the Sith completely and the Sith think the opposite. I think that they are both right. These are too violent religious groups who are hell-bent on destroying each other. Who would want to live in such a galaxy? Not I for sure.

 

The Jedi's exist within a Repulic where their killing and maiming is met with seemingly no scrutiny whatsoever. The Jedi are the guardians of the republic and therefore not even questioned when they commit acts of violence. Killing is seen to be a viable method of conflict resolution. The result is that Republic's citizens are less free. Annakin, now "freed", is now arguably less free than he had been on Tattooine. He merely exchanged one form of slavery for another. Benjamin Franklin once said::-- "Any society that gives up a little liberty, to gain a little security, will deserve neither and lose both". This is demenstrably what happens in the films.

 

In many of the stories the Jedi behave with such arrogance it becomes hard to sympathise with them. I think the 'servants of the force' is hot air, imagine an athlete describing themselves as a 'servant of carbohydrates'. Like so much of their waffle, it's arrogant nonsense at best. Some of the lines they deliver is cringe-worthy stuff. The only likeable qualities of the Sith is their honesty and their selection of recruitment 'will you join me' just seems a bit more chivalrous. Even when playing KOTOR the lightsaber classes are my least favourite although I do play them.

 

Their Republic too is fracturing. Look how it treats those that wish to secceed. Slavery is 'tolerated' on some planets. It harbours violence and corruption on a seemingly industrial scale. Look at how life on the lower levels of Coruscant is depicted and this is their capital, a glorified slum where poverty and violence is simply tolerated and ignored. In KOTOR it had a dedicated 'prison planet' which it keeps quiet to its citizens. Children born to these prisoners are also kept as prisoners, it's just all gone wrong. Our own world is far from perfect and I can think of many unscupulous regimes and corrupt countries, but none as bad as this Republic.

 

I think George Lucas is showing us that the Jedi have completely lost their way, as Bane believed the Sith Brotherhood had before. The results are markedly similar.

 

TL/DR::--- I agree:- and Darth Traya was correct. Also I think you know/think all this yourself, you have crafted an interesting discussion though.

Edited June 25, 2014 by uncle_monty
accuracy

[errant_knight]

Hmm, I don't think the babysnatchers analogy has any proof to it outside popular fan opinion. I know a lot of people rp that, but I can't think of an example outside of fan supposition that where a person didn't join willingly or willingly give their child for training.

 

Also, the jedi aren't always met with universal acceptance. There are time periods where they are seen as no different than sith, bringing war and destruction to common people wherever they go.

 

That being said, they're fallible people, not gods, and sometimes they do better than other times.

 

Part of their problem is also their unswerving support of the republic, even when the republic government/military decides to do something that can't be considered 'lightside.'. We don't know what was said behind the scenes when the republic decided to bomb the living **** out of imperial targets after the end of the last war, including ones with large numbers of civilians. They may have disapproved, but that didn't alter their support of the republic, which makes them look like massive hypocrites.

 

It's also a fair point that we don't see hundreds, even thousands, of years of peace, or that they're peacekeepers, not pacifists, which makes their use of force perfectly appropriate under the right circumstances.

 

Do they sometimes come across as holier than though, unrealistic tools of a corrupt government? Sure, lol. But the sith mostly come across as murderous sociopaths who'd skin babies just for a new hat, so I don't think too much finger pointing holds up under scrutiny. Both sides have issues.

Edited June 28, 2014 by errant_knight

[Ventessel]

Hmm, I don't think the babysnatchers analogy has any proof to it outside popular fan opinion. I know a lot of people rp that, but I can't think of an example outside of fan supposition that where a person didn't join willingly or willingly give their child for training.

Seriously, how do the Jedi get ahold of people's kids for training? Is it like an adoption alternative?

Do they sometimes come across as holier than though, unrealistic tools of a corrupt government? Sure, lol. But the sith mostly come across as murderous sociopaths who'd skin babies just for a new hat, so I don't think too much finger pointing holds up under scrutiny. Both sides have issues.

 

You seem to assume that I consider the Sith to be a direct counterpart or somehow the only alternative to the Jedi, and that by rejecting the one I am implicitly accepting the other. This is not the case.