Sorcerer/Sage Healing Conversation

[Juniormonk]

Sorcerer/Sage healers have been the underdogs in group pvp for a long time. According to Dulfy we are currently performing behind both Scoundrel/Operative healers and Commando/Mercenary healers in PvP. That's a no brainer. You'll see a few sages and sorcs topping the meters in 8v8 but in ranked its an entirely other story. I'm speaking in generalities here. This is not a new topic. But most teams that have a sorc/sage healer will lose in ranked pvp.

 

The good news for sage/sorc healers that have stuck it out and have gotten the gear to compete are currently under the spotlight by the devs. This could mean significant improvements for us in the pvp scene.

 

The big question they have for us is "Will taking away the HP cost for 'Comsumption' make our class too easy?' Will it also take away from the challenge of PvE healing? I personally don't have a problem with running out of force. My problem is living long enough to run out of force! Once I'm locked down and can't move I'm dead. We need stronger HoT's to heal on the move. Moving isn't a problem for me. I can be as slippery as an operative even without stealth. That's what causes the gap in healing though. If a sage is kiting he is not healing anyone except himself. Every other healer can heal the group while on the move. Making Comsumption free isn't the resolution in my humble opinion. What I'd like to see is spec options that make channeled/casted heals instant. Or make them proc for the free instant cast so they don't happen too often. Or better yet as Dulfy speaks about, why not make them a gear set perc?

 

What do you think, healers?

 

cheers,

Monk

Edited May 29, 2014 by Juniormonk

[AdrianDmitruk]

Hi Monk,

 

Some of us took Heal to Full and Make Them Pay as a challenge! Though our 4pc PVP bonus has been broken so long that when brutalizer gear came out, I checked to see how bolster would handle the 2pc Arkanian PVE bonus. With 2 Arkanian pieces for the set bonus (including mods/enhancements) it's only a loss of about 6 expertise. And considering how Force-efficient Innervate is relative to our other heals, I'm afraid the boat on fixing our PVP set bonuses has already sailed. Thanks bolster.

 

I definitely feel like I've been forced to up my game to somewhere near server best just to be competitive with "not bad" players from other healing classes. Sorcs have a lot of pressure to be in the top 1% because unless they are that skilled, the class mechanics we have to work with are simply not up to the task of handling positioning in arena. All our heals require LOS on the target to be healed, and for us to be within instant leap or harpoon range, which means LOSing (like the devs told us to in the H2F answer) often means letting a teammate die. That is acceptable in warzones as long as you can keep enough people up long enough for the respawn to come back, but is absolutely unforgivable in arena. There is simply no way to both position and fill our role at the same time in arena, when we must be able to do both. Operatives and to a lesser extent Mercenaries with Tech Overrides have long been better at PVP for that reason.

 

That contradiction between playing the position game to survive and doing your job as a healer (with the tools we have) isn't something I see getting addressed at any point before 3.0, as addressing the issue (without reverting anything, but then again the devs will never admit they ****ed up with 1.2) will outright require the addition of new healing abilities that we can use while moving and/or positioned out of reach of instant gap closers with interrupts attached. I've made numerous suggestions since H2F, fully expecting the implementation of maybe only one or two at a time (and I've calibrated those suggestions accordingly). Now that the devs are actually listening for the first time in 9 months, I might have to go back and do a compilation.

 

Granted some of the pressure I feel is self-inflicted because I don't run the full heal spec. So my HPS isn't what the parses say it could be. But then again, why don't I? As you mention, our survivability has severe issues, and I can't effectively move and heal anyone other than myself (with Unnatural Preservation) at the same time. Ergo, I take the CC offered by lightning to buy that much more time and/or space to cast. Comes in handy when I get put on a healer heavy team, too, as then I have the flexibility to help with DPS.

 

--Andreus

Edited May 30, 2014 by AdrianDmitruk

[LaVall]

Silly sorcs, H2F is for Juggs now.

[Raazmir]

There are enough interrupts and stuns in this game that really cast bars shouldn't require you to stand still, Anything channeled yes, cast bars no.

[Marceline]

I will agree that it can become extremely hard to solo a sage or sorcerer, especially when you get to those last couple of planets. I'm trying to make it through Makeb by myself at the moment and it's posing extremely difficult. I also agree that the producers need to tweak the mechanics for these two classes slight to make them more practical. With that being said, for the majority of the time that I've played this game, (around a year or so) I've never seen a healer been treated as the "underdog." If you ever take the time to surf the forums, guilds are always looking for dedicated healers to join, as well as groups looking for healers to do ops. Most people find a healer hard to play as because they don't know how to play the class. If playing in a group for a Flashpoint, Operation, etc.. as a healer you should NEVER help dps. Actually, as a healer you should never touch an NCP unless you're helping CC or the group is just completely blowing through the quest. When we try to deal damage and heal at the same time, the power is going to drain incredibly fast.

 

On another note, healers aren't hard to play, you just have to know what mods to put in your adaptable armor, and learn how to play the class on a first hand experience. That's all there is to it.

[Foambreaker]

I have a Sage and an OP I PvP with all the time, as far as the meters go keep in mind Ops healers have to keep everyone up with HOTs to trigger Tactical Advantage. A lot of times those HOTs are healing players who don't even need it.

 

Whereas with my Sage I don't heal people who don't need it unless they happen to stand in my puddle.

 

I don't think my Ops has near the healing power as raw throughput of my sage, the only difference is the interrupts.

 

I also prefer my Sage in a small team scenario where there are not enough people to trigger TA as often as I want.

[AdrianDmitruk]

Why y'all talking about healing PVE, when the sorc's healing issues are almost all (as admitted by the devs, quoted within the dulfy link monk posted) concerning healing PVP?

[bluecheesebandit]

Why y'all talking about healing PVE, when the sorc's healing issues are almost all (as admitted by the devs, quoted within the dulfy link monk posted) concerning healing PVP?

 

Yeah, I believe the devs were more referring to a 4set pvp bonus, and leaving pve as is.

[Ehbuse]

I will agree that it can become extremely hard to solo a sage or sorcerer, especially when you get to those last couple of planets. I'm trying to make it through Makeb by myself at the moment and it's posing extremely difficult. I also agree that the producers need to tweak the mechanics for these two classes slight to make them more practical. With that being said, for the majority of the time that I've played this game, (around a year or so) I've never seen a healer been treated as the "underdog." If you ever take the time to surf the forums, guilds are always looking for dedicated healers to join, as well as groups looking for healers to do ops. Most people find a healer hard to play as because they don't know how to play the class. If playing in a group for a Flashpoint, Operation, etc.. as a healer you should NEVER help dps. Actually, as a healer you should never touch an NCP unless you're helping CC or the group is just completely blowing through the quest. When we try to deal damage and heal at the same time, the power is going to drain incredibly fast.

 

On another note, healers aren't hard to play, you just have to know what mods to put in your adaptable armor, and learn how to play the class on a first hand experience. That's all there is to it.

 

 

Ummm +1 post count?? Did you read the thread at all? Whatchu talking 'bout Willis?

 

 

 

@op: I don't think it will make it too easy if they implement a mechanic similar to what they did with ops roll... Maybe like 3 casted then on cd for X seconds.

[Devinia-Hex]

Force Regen is a big issue and that we have only one instant cast that is not very effective. So you have to channel or hard cast which can be interupted, knocked back/down, dazed , stunned, pulled/pushed and choked out of.

 

Better Regen would help but not fix the issue, Reviification should become instant it still keeps the puddle mechanic but gives you another oh **** people are dying instant that you can count on.

 

They need to implement something that will be based off our HoT ticks (3) to proc a free instant Dark Infusion (6-10 second CD) this would also help with mobility a little that way while we're kitting away and a HoT is ticking we see the proc go off and can either use the heal for self or target.. Inprove Force Regen based on how many hots we have out on different targets by 10% up to 30% much like the lightning buff. That with the free instant Dark Infusion.

 

Move the Stun that reduces damage of target by 25% for 10 seconds and give them a passive 30% reduction while stunned higher in the tree Madness spec's can't get it.

 

I think that woould make them a lot better but not be a total mechanic change.

 

This would be from the PVP side as PVE they are probably fine if they are controlling their force but a little force regen for PVE would go a long way. The instant reviiffication would not be a night and day change. The Instant Dark Infusion would certainly help with spike damage though that would be the real buff on the PVE side. Damage while stunned would be a PVP buff and not PVE so the buffs themselves would be small on the PVE end it would really help on the PVP side making them 2nd tier healers above mercs I would still give the edge to Operatives just because of the more instant abilities but Sorcs would become more tanky with the 30% stun reduction and new instants. It would be close at least level the playing field for Sorc Sage Healers.

Edited June 4, 2014 by Devinia-Hex

[Devinia-Hex]

"Will taking away the HP cost for 'Comsumption' make our class too easy?'

 

I was talking about this with a few guildies it's really a bad mechanic and one that I think was thought up for us to be like Warlocks from wow the only problem is our heals through damage were never on par with what a warlock could do and we didn't have a fear like ability either or the ability to drain a targets force/energy/ammo if that were the case we'd destroy basically every class in the game. If whirlwind would not heal targets and would not drop by dots ticking that would be something .

 

It's like we're a Bastard of Shadow Priests and Warlocks but don't really have anything that made those classes good on the dps side. Oh yea heals....

 

The Healing tree is certainly like the Holy tree however what our holy tree lacks is a Heal over time mechanic on our hard casting abiliteis like Dark Infusion adding a hot % of the heal done or a shield effect for tthe % of healing done. The Healing tree is just very bare bones. Also what wow ended up doing is making the fast heal the big heal but cost more mana and the long slow heal be the weak one but cost very little.

 

There are a lot of options for the class and a lot of changes that would make it great but BW has to figure out what direction they want to go with the Spec.

[windogie]

Sorcs are fine if they can keep their force up to near full for extended timeframes. Merc/mando healers do worse against smart teams than sorcs and operatives because of how the majority of their healing is, their two casts are the majority of their heals and energy shield only lasts 12s. This doesn't take away from the current situation that sorcs are in though sorcs can keep their hps the same as operatives until they hit the critical point of force points which is around 150 or so which is the point where you either consume or you have no true healing power. All the healers are having more problems lately because of how bioware is consistently buffing damage but not buffing healers the same way, what I found out yesterday which I found quite funny is even operative healers can't out heal most of the incoming damage. I believe that sorcs and mandos need to be brought to the current level operatives are on healing wise and then we can see how to alter it from there.

 

If you make revivification instant without significant force management help a sorc healer will run out of force about 40% faster. Revivification costs about 1/5-1/6 of your total force. So you would get about 7 or 8 of them before you would have to find some means to get force. If you buff the force regen that much and you limit revivification to less than full use you would end with a healing spec with force regen like lightning spec. This could be fine though since sorc healers can take insane damage and a lot more than both the other heal classes.

[Haivon]

what I found out yesterday which I found quite funny is even operative healers can't out heal most of the incoming damage.

No fking ****, they nerfed Tactical Advantage which was the most important ability to Operative Healers. They also nerfed our roll.

[Jaddis]

I agree with Dash. Consumption was a stolen idea. Unfortunately it leaves corruption sorcs as the only healing class that is punished for resource regeneration. On top of that we are the only healing class to not have a heal that costs nothing. (Diagnostic Scan for Operatives and Rapid Shot for Mercenary) The benefit of our resource regeneration is that we don't -technically- have to wait for any cool down. In that regard, my wish would be for some passive mana regeneration that you pick up in the healing tree. I don't think that is the way in which we are broken though.

 

To answer your question more specifically instead of my ramblings above: No, I don't think making consumption free will help. It is difficult to manage our force currently, that I -do- agree on. And the disadvantage of having a force regeneration that takes our health is that it makes it darn near impossible to use consumption in high pressure situations. It's too risky to steal your own health unless you can immediately cast your self heal. That is the my true frustration with consumption. So frequently I have to try to drop combat to regen instead.

 

If only we had a no resource heal we could use on others like operatives and mercs. That way we could continue to be an asset to our team!

 

I will continue to play my Sorc with fervor. I love the class, I love the abilities, and I think sorcs are at the point where healers -should- be. I think sorc healing is dynamic, it's fun, and you can be -incredibly- annoying when done well. I just think that for the first time, sorcs are really in a "grass is greener on the other side" state. All that being said, I'm leveling my -fourth- corruption sorc. I love the class, I'll play it as long as I play this game.

 

I don't know that I agree with the statement that sorcs can take more damage than any other healer. I feel like I face tank on my merc, but my true shiny power on my sorc is being so slippery. I am not one to be all like, "u wrong, u dumb" but in the statement that sorcs can take more damage than any other healer... you are going to have to provide me with some evidence that isn't anecdotal.

 

As for Operatives: nerf them to the ground. Nerf them to the ground and kick some dirt over they nerfed pixels. Then nerf them again.

 

SORC4LYFE.

Edited June 6, 2014 by Jaddis

[Haivon]

As for Operatives: nerf them to the ground. Nerf them to the ground and kick some dirt over they nerfed pixels. Then nerf them again.

Plz. No. More

 

They still need to buff some factors about Scouperatives.

 

For example, letting us Heal in Stealth. Everybody cries about Operative stealth, even though they can use a grenade right after they pop Disappearing Act/Cloaking Screen but more people are sloths and have PvE'er reactions. And plus people act as if we can already Heal while in Stealth. So why not let us?

 

C'mon people!

 

#Health thru Stealth!

Edited June 7, 2014 by Haivon

[windogie]

I agree with Dash. Consumption was a stolen idea. Unfortunately it leaves corruption sorcs as the only healing class that is punished for resource regeneration. On top of that we are the only healing class to not have a heal that costs nothing. (Diagnostic Scan for Operatives and Rapid Shot for Mercenary) The benefit of our resource regeneration is that we don't -technically- have to wait for any cool down. In that regard, my wish would be for some passive mana regeneration that you pick up in the healing tree. I don't think that is the way in which we are broken though.

 

To answer your question more specifically instead of my ramblings above: No, I don't think making consumption free will help. It is difficult to manage our force currently, that I -do- agree on. And the disadvantage of having a force regeneration that takes our health is that it makes it darn near impossible to use consumption in high pressure situations. It's too risky to steal your own health unless you can immediately cast your self heal. That is the my true frustration with consumption. So frequently I have to try to drop combat to regen instead.

 

If only we had a no resource heal we could use on others like operatives and mercs. That way we could continue to be an asset to our team!

 

I will continue to play my Sorc with fervor. I love the class, I love the abilities, and I think sorcs are at the point where healers -should- be. I think sorc healing is dynamic, it's fun, and you can be -incredibly- annoying when done well. I just think that for the first time, sorcs are really in a "grass is greener on the other side" state. All that being said, I'm leveling my -fourth- corruption sorc. I love the class, I'll play it as long as I play this game.

 

I don't know that I agree with the statement that sorcs can take more damage than any other healer. I feel like I face tank on my merc, but my true shiny power on my sorc is being so slippery. I am not one to be all like, "u wrong, u dumb" but in the statement that sorcs can take more damage than any other healer... you are going to have to provide me with some evidence that isn't anecdotal.

 

As for Operatives: nerf them to the ground. Nerf them to the ground and kick some dirt over they nerfed pixels. Then nerf them again.

 

SORC4LYFE.

 

Sorcs have light armor and have a 2% reduction buff in their tree. Mercs have heavy armor with a 4% reduction buff in their tree. Operatives have medium armor with a 4% reduction buff in their tree. The fact that sorcs take the most damage isn't even questionable. It doesn't feel like it all the time (until you are stunned with force barrier off cd) because sorcs have a +8 heal recieved buff. You will notice it more when you have a toon like my merc on you and are being blasted for 8-12k consistently. Bubble also adds mitigation so you notice less of the damage you are actually taking. However when your force hits a critical level you can't ignore the damage cause most of it isn't being buffered by your heals and you have to choose between killing yourself or taking a chance that their dps will decrease overtime.

[Jaddis]

You know what. Apparently I didn't comprehend your first post. I thought you meant sorcs were -capable- of withstanding more damage.

 

So yes, I agree, it that sense, we take more damage. Whether or not we survive it is another story.

[Kayla_Shadowsong]

I have been playing my sorc healer a bit recently and there are two main weaknesses in the class.

 

Energy managment is all but imposible under heavy fire, most matches I am runing on fumes trying to break clear long enough to sethe as under more than one good enemy attacking using consumption in a fight would be suicidal. Honestly though I dont think energy is our weakness. Better mobile heals would let us waste less force on quick cast heals.

 

The real problem is we only have one weak hot instant cast on a timer and a longer very weak ic pbaoe. Under fire from two plus good dps will shut down anything but self heals and even then you have to use every scrap of terain to get any healing through the interupts and throws.

 

I dont think the class is broken in 8v8, but in arenas the sith witch is missing the mobile heals to go with our light armor and flighty nature. Stoping to heal just invites interupts or chokes or throws or harpoons or....

 

My suggestion would be to have our resurgent crits stack a buff that grants instant channel free innervates at 3 stacks. Perhaps also cut its cooldown in half.

[Ehbuse]

Would a simple "free heal" (mando beam, diag scan) with force regen be a solution? As dash mentioned