deception sin vs concealment op pvp

[LordLojak]

alrighty i got it in my head that i wanna be 1 of those really annoyin cloaky wankers in open world and WZs.

 

so to this end i want to make either a sin or an op useing the "pop out of hide and kill" tree i dont much care about tanking or healin i have other chars i can use for that. but i wanna know how the 2 compare.

i.e. which 1 does more dmg over all

 

what i have heard is sins are just flat out better than ops in all respects (i hope this isnt true cuz i love the idea of an operative)

 

on a side note what are people mean when they say "parsing"? ive heard this many times but im not entirely sure what it means or i have the wrong idea.

and i do apologize as of writing this im fallin asleep at my keyboard.

 

thank you in advance for and and all info

[Maldorans]

The one who will do the most damage overall is the one with the more skilled player behind the keyboard.

[Adovir]

alrighty i got it in my head that i wanna be 1 of those really annoyin cloaky wankers in open world and WZs.

 

so to this end i want to make either a sin or an op useing the "pop out of hide and kill" tree i dont much care about tanking or healin i have other chars i can use for that. but i wanna know how the 2 compare.

i.e. which 1 does more dmg over all

 

what i have heard is sins are just flat out better than ops in all respects (i hope this isnt true cuz i love the idea of an operative)

 

on a side note what are people mean when they say "parsing"? ive heard this many times but im not entirely sure what it means or i have the wrong idea.

and i do apologize as of writing this im fallin asleep at my keyboard.

 

thank you in advance for and and all info

 

In PVP the assassin is much better than the operative because the operative lacks meaningful defensive cool downs. With the assassin you can get 3 seconds of force and tech immunity while with the operative you get 3 seconds of melee and ranged which is only really good against marauders ravage and snipers. The assassins also get a move for 12 seconds for 50% more melee and ranged defense. Assassins have better controll than Ops, they have slows incaps 2 hard stuns a knock back and a good mez. They also have superior passive defensive skills 30%aoe dmg reduct(we will soon get in 2.8.... Hopefully) 30% more armor(from light armor to about medium) 2% dmg reduct on crits(stacks 3 times) and 25%dmg reduct on leaving stealth(useable every 45 seconds out of stealth. Lastly their burst is abit more "on demand" because of recklessness. When recklessness is up sins have any where between 80-85% force crit chance for their next 3 moves and recklessness' cool down is reset by 1 min upon leaving combat.

 

So in conclusion the assassin is better in PVP but the operative is not 100% bad, the only bad thing about it is that you need to massively out play your opponent and even then if they catch you then you're in trouble.

 

 

In PVE the operative blows the assassin out of the water. Operatives are one of the highest parsing damage dealers in the game. Parsing shows how much potential dps your class has and we're something like 600 dps ahead of assassins. Also our healers are commonly said to be the best in the game although our rotation is boring enough to make you fall asleep behind your keyboard

[snave]

alrighty i got it in my head that i wanna be 1 of those really annoyin cloaky wankers in open world and WZs.

 

so to this end i want to make either a sin or an op useing the "pop out of hide and kill" tree i dont much care about tanking or healin i have other chars i can use for that. but i wanna know how the 2 compare.

i.e. which 1 does more dmg over all

 

what i have heard is sins are just flat out better than ops in all respects (i hope this isnt true cuz i love the idea of an operative)

 

on a side note what are people mean when they say "parsing"? ive heard this many times but im not entirely sure what it means or i have the wrong idea.

and i do apologize as of writing this im fallin asleep at my keyboard.

 

thank you in advance for and and all info

 

Assassins out perform operatives in PvP due to more group utility, far better defensive cooldowns and superior on command burst. The only time an operative beats an assassin 1v1 is due to a gear gap or the assassin being bad, even mediocre assassins can beat good operatives due to the nature of their damage.

 

If you go to my youtube channel there's a clip there calls a ssburst in which an assassin takes off around 90% of my health in 7 seconds, it's worth nothing that in this particular game I defeated this player numerous times and this just illustrates how far advanced assassins are in PvP.

 

In PvE they suffer badly from a lack of sustained damage which means operatives outperform them by a huge margin, we have some of the highest parses (parse being a record of your damage done) in the game. With the upcoming changes in 2.8 we'll be in a very good position for PvE but still somewhat lacking in PvP.

 

For what you want to do I'd recommend an assassin.

[LordLojak]

after trting out many WZs on both a 32 ish sin and a 26 ish operative i seem to having more luck with the op and i find it a little more fun to play (i havnt gotten tired of the giggle and i dont think i will) so i think i found my sneaky ******

[Kadjunga]

lowbie pvp is no skill pvp, where it's just kill kill kill. The classes that do well in lowbie pvp, quite often fail hard in 55 pvp.

 

at 55, operatives are pretty much glass cannons and only a few ways to get out of trouble

sins have on demand burst + survivability. But if you manage to survive the burst, you are probably not going to die.

[Cordorian]

(Wall of text incomming)

 

First of all i agree with everything that was said in this thread so far.

Some additions:

 

- While assassin have better on demand burst (3 charges of recklessness making shock and discharge near auto crit when opening from stealth), concealment operative have a higher burst when stuff crits (if you lucky on crits, they hit like a truck) and ofc a far better sustained (the reason that operatives are no regularly on the top of damage charts, is more due to objective play or them spending a lot of time in spawn[ you get focused like mad since, lets face it the whole advanced class is pretty much hated[)

 

- Operatives are "easier" to play. That means you basic priority abilities are pretty straight forward, especially since you can spam laceration quite a bit now (and it does good damage). Deception relies heavily on proc. You should not use Maul without dublicity, and try to get your charges up for discharge. In pvp you can force some of your procs but this situation doesn't always allow for it.

 

- the tanking/healing skills. Operative are the only class in game with two cleanses, evasion self cleanses everything (even madness dots) and you still have your regular tech cleanse (pyro and lethality can be pretty much neutralized by that). Operative have off healing abilities, which arent great (worst off healer in game), but sometimes can keep you alive in critical situation (you just have kill a madness sorc, his dots are still on you, are running low on health and evasion is on CD). Utility the of tanking abilities the assassin offer are better though. Taunting gives you free medal and add team utility. For node capping aoe taunt is great, since it puts stealthers in combat so you cannot be sapped (also for node guarding). You have to switch stance to use guard and unlike guardians this costs you all the force you have (so stance dancing is not a viable option), but there are some darkness deception hybrids, that are quite tanky and still have a nice burst (auto crit on shock ftw), which you can play in darkness stance.

 

- roll now is actually better than force speed, but still can bug and force you to leave the match

 

- low slash is great on the assassin, 15s CD 2s mez that proc dublicity (if specced, which you should do), but flash bang the operatives aoe mez (1m CD 8s mez) is probably the most hated ability in game. Great for capping nodes, great for scoring in huttball in the endzone (great like everything in huttball basically), great for getting out situation in which you get focused) and it used to great for getting orbital strike in use as more than just cap interrupt (but no orbital strike is just no usefull damage anymore). so both ability are great and i still cant really decide which i like more. Assassin's shroud also is self cleanse, but it is the only one they have.

 

- the assassin only has a slow, while concealment has proper root in Sever tendon. I only see few concealment operative use it, but it is really really useful (snave does and that is why he is such a pain to play against ). It makes concealment a bit harder to kite and assassins.

 

- concealment has hands down the better dot in corrosive dart. while crushing darkness might do more damage has a cast time and hard to apply in many situations.

 

- range. Both classes are melee, but two of the assassins main attacks are mid range (10m) shock and discharge and maul, voltaric slash and assassinnate are full melee, the only 30m range attack they have is recklessness buffed force lightning which is rather rubbish and you use it rather rarely. Operatives main attacks are all tech and melee (4m) hidden strike (stealth and from the back), shiv, backstab (from the back) and laceration. But they have a lot of stuff that has 30m range as well, like the auto attack, thermal grenade, explosive probe, snipe and corrosive dart. These range option, despite most of them not doing that much damage, are great for interrupting caps, something which is a lot harder on an assassin (despite in the death field hybrid)

- mixture of damage: basically all the attacks you use regularly on an operative are tech, considering that most defensive CDs in game only mitigate melee ranged damage, this is great, but against those that can mitigate force/tech damage you are in really bad position (one of the reason, an equally skilled assassin should win against an operative.... shroud). Assassin have shock and discharge that are force and maul, voltaric slash and assassinate that are melee, this a far better mixture and you have the chance to adjust to what you enemy is doing..

 

- assassin have proper finisher.

 

-assassin have a knockback period. i dont really know why they have it, but a stealther with a knockback is just some much fun (not to imagine if you gave them a pull as well... tanking tree in huttball one of the funniest things you can do in this game). The knockback give you great utility and you will become you marauders teammates best friend if you kindly knock those snipers out of cover.

 

-assassin have 10m hard stun on a 1 minute CD, Operatives have 4m hard stun, whose CD can be specced down to 30s. Don't know what to give the edge, but with lowslash in the arsenal, the i find myself not needing a lower CD on the hard stun on the assassin.

 

- operative have the better aoe options, even though orbital has been nerfed to the ground. Thermal grenade is still awesome. Assassin in full deception only have lacerate, which is rather bad (and costs a lot of force) and the knockback. A lot of assassins run a deception spec and take deathfield from the madness tree, for regular wzs this makes perfect sense and you also have something to use the 3rd recklessness charge on, for arenas full deception is better.

 

- operative have no actually viable hybrid. basically you go for a pure medicine, concealment or lethality build, there might be little tweaks here and there, but nothing that you really would call hybrid (hots and dots is just rubbish tbh). Part of the fun is that the assassin AC offers so many options to play around with hybrids and different builds. There are so many good skills relatively low in the trees so it is really worth experimenting a little bit around. Dark Maul, Wakajin, Deathfield Deception or only the beginning and with the buff to madness maybe even more will arise.

 

-Assassin have a 30m mez for 8s that soon only will have 1s cast time. Pretty useful for just CCing a tank or a healer. With shroud up the cast is basically uninterruptible and makes a good ninja capping tool.

 

-resource management: even with all the changes concealment operative have a much harder resource management. If you perform a proper burst rotation you might be totally drained for energy ( below 50% you it regens much slower) and if adrenaline probe is of CD it can pretty tough to do anything (rifle shot ftw). Assassin have a fully linear force system, and if you use the abilities on procs it ok to manage, even if you get low deception has a talent restore quite some force (on top of giving you dr) when used out off stealth. clear edge for the assassin (although they still complain about their resource management)

 

- assassin despite having better CDs and more reliable burst, also have some quite useful talents. For example a reduction on the CD of the CC breaker (if you operative like snave does, you must get envious at that ) , reset of recklessness on leaving combat (this includes combat stealthing out), increase damage on hard stunned targets, increased damage on targets below 30%, higher melee crit chance after force crits, increase armor pen as baseline (operative only gets 30% armor pen, for acid blade).

 

- overcharge saber is quite a decent self heal for the assassin, increased the charges damage (and heals even further when they trigger), better and more useful than all the operatives off heals atm (sadly)

 

- a lot talents in the concealment tree are no so useful atm. One advantage concealment has over a pure deception build should be named though. concealment has better stealth detection (the increase on assassin is in the 3rd tier of the tanking tree, so hard to get without running a hybrid). As in duel amongst they to classes (node guard vs. node taker), it is often decisive who opens, this can be quite some advantage)

-operatives are plainly cooler

 

I personally have stopped playing concealment and enjoy deception more, don't concealment just began to get boring at some point. In general as the others said, deception assassins are better for pvp, and probably the to go spec for solo ranked. In team ranked recently a few teams went with concealment operatives, but they are still to squishy in my mind (roudy basically can get away with everything it seems, so he doesnt count). Assassins are really good for hard switch combos (concealment would be good at that in principle as well, but their squishiness makes them a bit of a liability) but still not many made it work at the top level. For regs Assassins are in very good place and can even top the damage charts quite regularly. Operative work there as well, watch snave stream for an example on how they can be played. If you dont have any ranked ambition both are usuable, despite operative still needing some more love on the defenses.

Edited May 28, 2014 by Cordorian